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Does it matter what we believe if we don’t love one another ?

Polymath257

Think & Care
Staff member
Premium Member
I can see why one can see those passages of John as immoral. I would offer one has to look beyond the verse as to what it is offering about Love. It is about the source.

I am quite aware of what it is trying to say about the source of love.

But that is also my point: it thereby states that atheists, for example, cannot experience true love. Nor can pagans or those that believe in other religions.

By making love something that arises from a deity, it denies it to those who do not believe. And the result of that is to dehumanize non-believers.

Historically, that has often lead to bloody pogroms, crusades, and and inquisitions.

It is like partaking of the heat and light of the sun. One has to be out in the midday sun on a clear day to experience the full heat and light.

Except, of course, that then implies that non-believers cannot possibly truly love their children, their spouses, their friends, etc. In that regard, love is NOT like heat. it comes from within, not from without.

So if all of us want to choose Love, what is the source? What is "true love". John is offering a source, yet the same book does also offers that we, one and all, are created with the potential of that Love within.

Again, understood. But this again shows just how little the believers regard those who don't believe. While claiming to be for unity and love, they show themselves to be about division and exclusion. They show that their belief is more about self-gratification and ego than actual caring for others.

Is love greater than what we find in this material world? I only offer this passage as a further thought, I apologise beforehand, if you do not consider it appropriate.

"Know thou of a certainty that Love is the secret of God's holy Dispensation, the manifestation of the All-Merciful, the fountain of spiritual outpourings. Love is heaven's kindly light, the Holy Spirit's eternal breath that vivifieth the human soul. Love is the cause of God's revelation unto man, the vital bond inherent, in accordance with the divine creation, in the realities of things. Love is the one means that ensureth true felicity both in this world and the next. Love is the light that guideth in darkness, the living link that uniteth God with man, that assureth the progress of every illumined soul. Love is the most great law that ruleth this mighty and heavenly cycle, the unique power that bindeth together the divers elements of this material world, the supreme magnetic force that directeth the movements of the spheres in the celestial realms. Love revealeth with unfailing and limitless power the mysteries latent in the universe. Love is the spirit of life unto the adorned body of mankind, the establisher of true civilization in this mortal world, and the shedder of imperishable glory upon every high-aiming race and nation."

‘Abdu’l-Bahá, Selections from the Writings of ‘Abdu’l-Bahá, p. 27

Regards Tony

If this is the case, then even non-believers partake in the divine.
 

TransmutingSoul

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Except, of course, that then implies that non-believers cannot possibly truly love their children, their spouses, their friends, etc. In that regard, love is NOT like heat. it comes from within, not from without.

My thought here is that Love has many levels, there is more than one type of Love. There is a good talk on this available.

Yes I agree that indeed it is within and must be brought out of us, this also is what Faith teaches. Also the heat radiates from within to out as does the light of the sun. The effects of that are felt externally by all of us.

That is how Love is supposed to radiate. As we Love, so does that radiate to others.

Regards Tony
 

TransmutingSoul

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Again, understood. But this again shows just how little the believers regard those who don't believe. While claiming to be for unity and love, they show themselves to be about division and exclusion. They show that their belief is more about self-gratification and ego than actual caring for others.

I see that is not the way I see Love works in Faith.

It is a Love that one sacrifices their life for, for the good of all people.

All I can offer there is an example of this Love and it was Abdul'baha. The stories told of his life, are the demonstrations of true love.

All that met him understood why, for us we need to consider those stories.

Regards Tony
 

TransmutingSoul

Veteran Member
Premium Member
If this is the case, then even non-believers partake in the divine.

Yes I see they do, as for every one of us the sun shines and all partake of the light and heat to the extent they choose.

There are also a lot of good talks available on this very subject.

Regards Tony
 

Ella S.

*temp banned*
The last time a question like this was asked, I pointed out that I don't value love.

Love is a double-edged sword to me. While it can promote psychological health and lead one to care about the health of others in general, it can also be unhealthy, leading to romanticizing the object of one's affection, jealousy, obsession, and many forms of emotional reasoning.

Others in this thread have also pointed out that love itself often leads to destructive "tough love" and "discipline," which can also be harmful.
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
Isn’t love and unity the main purpose of religion?
Love and unity is one purpose of religion.

“The Great Being saith: O ye children of men! The fundamental purpose animating the Faith of God and His Religion is to safeguard the interests and promote the unity of the human race, and to foster the spirit of love and fellowship amongst men. Suffer it not to become a source of dissension and discord, of hate and enmity. This is the straight Path, the fixed and immovable foundation. Whatsoever is raised on this foundation, the changes and chances of the world can never impair its strength, nor will the revolution of countless centuries undermine its structure.”

Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 215

The other purpose of religion is to acquire knowledge of God and God's laws and to observe of God's Laws.

“The beginning of all things is the knowledge of God, and the end of all things is strict observance of whatsoever hath been sent down from the empyrean of the Divine Will that pervadeth all that is in the heavens and all that is on the earth.”

Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 5
That’s the point. What’s the point of religion if it’s just to pray and go to church?
This could apply not only to Christians but also to Baha'is who only pray and attend Baha'i activities to study the Baha'i scriptures. What is the difference between that and a Christian who only prays and goes to Bible study?
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
I've never encountered a religion that made either of these its purpose.
You have now. :)

“The Great Being saith: O ye children of men! The fundamental purpose animating the Faith of God and His Religion is to safeguard the interests and promote the unity of the human race, and to foster the spirit of love and fellowship amongst men. Suffer it not to become a source of dissension and discord, of hate and enmity. This is the straight Path, the fixed and immovable foundation. Whatsoever is raised on this foundation, the changes and chances of the world can never impair its strength, nor will the revolution of countless centuries undermine its structure.”
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 215
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
I don't see creating a new religion as an act that is consistent with the goal of unity.
The Baha'is did not 'create' a new religion. According to our beliefs, God revealed a new religion which has a new message and new social teachings and laws that are pertinent to this new age. The Baha'i Faith is not really a new religion, it is just the latest chapter of religion, a continuation of the never-ending eternal religion of God.
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
What's really coincidental for you to say that is when I was being interviewed for the Baha'i Faith they indirectly told me if I had any Christian friends that I should let them assume I'm a Christian so I don't get harassed about them with their idea of sin. "Just tell them you're Christian." - Literal quote from the interviewer.
Personally, I think that is a wrong approach because it is dishonest. Baha'is are not Christians just because we believe in Jesus Christ.
 

sun rise

The world is on fire
Premium Member
I can agree with that. But I still wonder if people have not divorced love for others from their faith and replaced it with these things like politics and outward worship.

Some have, no doubt. But I do run into people that have not done so.

But that outward worship issue is not new at all. The call to action is in the Bible, for example and that makes it 2 millennia old.
 

Clara Tea

Well-Known Member
Does your religion have true love and unity and do the people really care for each other or is it just a ‘church on Sunday’ religion?

Is it that God comes first, then prayer, then rituals, then meditation, then preaching, then meetings but people are not on the list anywhere? Could this be a reason religion has been abandoned, because people don’t feel loved anymore?

Love includes commitment. For example, we might love the victims of hurricane Katrina, but we might be apathetic (as President W. Bush was) and do nothing as people died needlessly, while he refused to get off of his vacation. Actually, W. Bush said that he had a hard time quitting his addictions (presumably hard narcotics and alcohol), and recidivism is very common for addicts. W. Bush said that with the help of Reverend Billy Graham, and spending time at the Crawford Ranch in Texas, he was able to dry out and get sober and clean. So, likely it wasn't a vacation in Texas, it was likely an attempt to get sober and clean again.

The governor of a nearby state had his momma stuck in the hurricane Katrina flood. He was on a cell phone with her, and on day one said "don't worry, momma, help is on the way." On day two he said "don't worry, momma, help is on the way." But President W. Bush diverted emergency workers to other states, and prevented them from coming into Louisiana to help with the hurricane Katrina disaster. On day three....no more momma....she had been diabetic, and she died from lack of insulin and lack of food (diabetics must keep eating). She died. She could have been saved, but W. Bush was afraid that the al Qaeda was part of the rescue effort. At the time, I was in contact with the chief of the Canadian rescue team, which the chief said was the first rescue team to be allowed to enter Lousiana. I am the one who wrote about it, and now much of the world is aware that the Canadians beat the US rescue workers. Ice was sent in, to cool wounds and take down swelling, but W. Bush diverted the ice so it never arrived, assuming that the ice was for alcoholic beverages, and that the rescue teams, stranded in other states, needed the ice to make liquor drinks.

So, love is not the only thing that we need. We also need to stop intoxication (narcotics and alcohol), and we need to stop being apathetic. It is not enough to love someone, we have to be stirred to action. We also need to stop paranoia. It was paranoia (and lies) that caused the United States to attack Iraq in the first place. Paranoia (and other mental illnesses) cause many other problems. W. Bush spent a great deal of money with new sonar in submarines, blasting sound in the ocean that if broadcast in Los Angeles, could be heard in Chicago (wow...that's far). It was in a layer of cold water that whales use to communicate (because it bounces two dimensionally so sound carries futher, blocked by thermal gradients). Mysteriously, whales (and other sea life) beached and their ear drums were broken and bloody, and they need hearing to find mates. They would not be able to reproduce. It was caused by this new sonar. Of course, the al Qaeda didn't have their own country, nor did they have submarines, so all of that expense and environmental damage was for nothing. Because they didn't announce their plans and operations, the whale damage was a mystery for quite some time.

When a political candidate is clearly out of his depth, and completely unable to do his duty, he should not continue to seek power.

Even if he brags that he is humble, as W. Bush constantly did, we shouldn't assume that the ruler of the world is really humble.

It is one thing to tout love, then prove that you don't love. For example, the Christian religion is supposed to love all of God's children, yet we made war (thou shalt not kill) and torture camps.
 

Clara Tea

Well-Known Member
I can agree with that. But I still wonder if people have not divorced love for others from their faith and replaced it with these things like politics and outward worship.

Yes, the mixing of politics and religion has ruined both.

Soldiers can be no more honorable than the president who orders them. Soldiers have to obey. So, when the US told lies to motivate wars, soldiers thought that they were fighting the enemy, not merely carrying on a decades-old grudge from pappa Bush, with oil rights hanging in the balance.

The wars, and subsequent occupations, created deep-seated resentment in the middle east. This is from a people who still resent Alexander the Great (they hold a grudge for a long time). Virtually ever citizen of Iraq knows someone (friend or relative) who had been killed. In a country of 30,000,000, one million had been killed by W. Bush's wars. The exact count is obscure. As a US general pointed out, "we're not in the business to count casualties." The US press only mentioned the meager numbers of US casualties, and never mentioned Iraqi losses, for fear that they would diminish the lust for war and killing.

Not only has religion and politic mixed, the military and guns are part of that mix. Notice that Senator John Kerry didn't have a "prayer" (if you'll pardon the pun) of getting elected because Kerry (a legitimate war hero and hunting enthusiast who hunted during the campaign) was shunned by the National Rifle Association. The NRA was a requirement to get elected by the Religious Right (they support killing equipment). The pope was on the NRA's enemy list for his stance against guns. The organization Veterans For Truth told lies about Kerry in order to get w. Bush elected (they admitted to their lies, after the election was over).

Lies should not be a part of the Christian faith. However, we can assert that no one is perfect. But when our leaders are intentionally deceptive and try to be evil, we must draw the line.
 

Clara Tea

Well-Known Member
That does happen, and it is a reason many go back into the world, and leave religion.
This is why Jesus said, love must be the identifying mark of his true followers.

Indeed, we can identify true Christians and followers of Satan by their deeds.

Satan rules by fear, greed, and deception. He creates a trail of war, torture camps, paranoia, destruction of God's beautiful environment, ignores the sick and homeless, etc.
 

Clara Tea

Well-Known Member
That doesn't work for me. Killings in self-defense are justifiable as moral acts but they aren't caring acts, for example.

God said "thou shalt not kill" (not kill only in self defense).

Satan rules by fear, greed, and deception, and creates a path of war, torture camps, ignored homeless, debt, disease, starvation, etc.

In the case of the war in Iraq, the US was just attacked by the al Qaeda. But, Iraq had nothing to do with that. They were not linked to terrorism, so the war was in direct defiance of God's commandment.
 

Jacob Samuelson

Active Member
Does your religion have true love and unity and do the people really care for each other or is it just a ‘church on Sunday’ religion?

Is it that God comes first, then prayer, then rituals, then meditation, then preaching, then meetings but people are not on the list anywhere? Could this be a reason religion has been abandoned, because people don’t feel loved anymore?
A better title for this post would be Why should we love one another?

Love is the way to understand others. Without it, truth could not exist. Consider a passage from the New Testament: Show me your faith without deeds, and I will show you my faith by my deeds. 19 You believe that there is one God. Good! Even the demons believe that—and shudder.

Faith in God is just a better word for loving God without being able to see Him. Trusting that He is giving you the right path in your life. Religion is just a path. You can follow it grudgingly or you can follow it with love, you are still following it and hopefully you find meaning along the way. I'm sure God loves religion as He didn't send Christ to condemn it but to understand it. Christ is the way and if you read His words, he organized a Church that would be to feed the hungry, clothe the naked, and visit the sick and afflicted.

Religion is a tool God uses to reach the lost and afraid. A wrench is not made for cutting wood and a saw is not made for taking out bolts. People without religion do not want any path that God has laid out for them. They want to build their own life however they want it and reject many of the interpretations of others in regards to scripture. It is the same as not going to University and expecting the best education from reading. While you can get something out of books, God didn't place you on Earth to be alone and learn from Nature alone. God provided a plethora of people with ideas and thoughts and experiences that will help you learn more about Him.

So yes, beliefs matter even if you don't love. The same way eating vegetables matter even if you don't particularly love the taste. God obviously wants you to love being good and choosing the right and learning more willingly, but religion is there to help you so you don't have to recreate the wheel just to get the basic answers we have in life.
 
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