Does God "CHOOSE" not to know the future?

[Skwim]

This entire thread is about God knowing the future. I was using the Bible in Jonah as evidence that God does not know the future.....God said He was going to destroy Nineveh, because they were wicked. But, they changed and repented.
Therefore, God forgave them! They changed, then He changed.

Sorry, I forgot that you don't believe god is omniscient. Think he is omnipotent?

 

[Hockeycowboy]

Sorry, I forgot that you don't believe god is omniscient. Think he is omnipotent?

Hold on, now! I believe that God is omniscient; I just don't believe He knows the future, or predestines people's lives.

What He can do -- in fact, what we do, to some extent -- is see how the future will pan out. For example: if we know of a person who texts while driving, we might say "that person's going to cause an accident." If they do, did we foretell the future? Not rreeaally. We just know, from experience and past events, what can happen. We know that certain actions can lead to certain events. It's actually called wisdom. We can have some wisdom; God has it all. He knows that certain actions will lead to certain events!

As for omnipotence, He's the source of all energy -- he created all matter (Rev. 4:11) I don't engage in philosophical debates beyond that statement. Although, I will say this: according to the Bible, the Devil is controlling this world and its attitudes and governments right now. And has been for 6,000 years, since God's way of ruling was questioned in the Garden of Eden.
It's been necessary for God to 'step away' from mankind's affairs. (Read Genesis 3. Meditate on it; maybe you will discern the issues raised. But you got to think deeply on it.)

So-long

 

[Skwim]

Hold on, now! I believe that God is omniscient; I just don't believe He knows the future, or predestines people's lives.

So knowing everything doesn't include knowing the future. Well, everyone is free to use a word any way they wish, however, when such usage doesn't coincide with its common meaning it raises suspicions as to why the person is deviating from the common meaning. My guess here is that you dearly love the appellation of omniscience to your god, and aren't about to give it up, but at the same time find its meaning so troublesome that you need to change it to your own.
Hockeycowboy's definition of "omniscience": Knowing everything about the past and the present. (my guess here). Trouble is, it's really ludicrous when compared to its true meaning.

1020 God, all-knowing
The omniscience of God is that attribute by which he knows all things past, present and future.
source


Omniscience of God – God Knows All Things
The omniscience of God is the principle that God is all-knowing; that He encompasses all knowledge of the universe past, present, and future.
source


God is Omniscient
Definition:
The attribute of God by which God perfectly and eternally knows all things which can be known, past, present, and future.
source


The Omniscience of God
"God knows every future action. The fact that God gave prophets the capability to predict accurately very specific events in the distant future is one of the great evidences for the inspiration of the Bible (Thompson, 1999, p. 19). God has emphasized repeatedly that He knows the future, perhaps never more emphatically than when Jesus Himself prophesied (see Matthew 24:1-51; Mark 8:31; John 2:19-22). The fact that God knows the future does not imply that humans somehow lose freedom of choice. Just because God knows that something will happen, does not mean that He causes it (see Bales, 1974, p. 49). God cannot be taught anything about the future (Acts 17:31; John 14:3)."
source


Is God omniscient? What does it mean to be omniscient?
To say God is omniscient is to say that God knows all things or has all knowledge. As Creator of the heavens and the earth (Genesis 1:1), there is nothing made that He has not known (John 1:3).

God's omniscience includes knowledge of the future. He knows "the end from the beginning" (Isaiah 46:10). In fact, predictive knowledge is unique to God; detailed, accurate prophecy is His specialty. Our Lord issues this challenge to false gods: "declare to us the things to come, tell us what the future holds, so we may know that you are gods" (Isaiah 41:22-23 NIV). Any god worth its salt must know the future,
source


The word omniscience is not, strictly speaking, a biblical term. The word itself is not found in the Bible. It is a philosophical/theological word that has come into wide usage because, like the word trinity, it correctly describes the biblical evidence. The word means to see or know all things. For God, if this doctrine is true, everything is eternally “present.” I have recently been going through a box of old newspaper clippings from earlier years. To my astonishment, I had forgotten, not only many things that happened to me, but many of the people involved. Time dims our remembrance of much that has happened. God is not like that. He always knows what is past, present, and future, if he is omniscient.
source​

So believe whatever you want about god's abilities, but if I was an upright Christian I wouldn't try pawning off your notion of "omniscience" without immediate explanation.

 

[muhammad_isa]

Hold on, now! I believe that God is omniscient; I just don't believe He knows the future, or predestines people's lives.

Omniscience means aware of everything through time & space .. the universe is Almighty God's creation along with all it contains.

..so Almighty God knows the future, just as we know the past. Prophets only have some limited knowledge of the future through Almighty God. Predestination is another thing .. it would be better termed 'Divine decree' ie. predestination does not really mean that God has shaped our future, just that He is aware of what decisions we will make..

Doctor Who is just entertainment .. God is the REAL time-lord

 

[Hockeycowboy]

Omniscience means aware of everything through time & space .. the universe is Almighty God's creation along with all it contains.

..so Almighty God knows the future, just as we know the past. Prophets only have some limited knowledge of the future through Almighty God. Predestination is another thing .. it would be better termed 'Divine decree' ie. predestination does not really mean that God has shaped our future, just that He is aware of what decisions we will make..

Doctor Who is just entertainment .. God is the REAL time-lord

What Scriptures do you use to back that up?

 

[muhammad_isa]

What Scriptures do you use to back that up?

Why do you ask? Do you think that I am incorrect, or that Almighty God is not responsible for space and time as we define it?

 

[Hockeycowboy]

So knowing everything doesn't include knowing the future. Well, everyone is free to use a word any way they wish, however, when such usage doesn't coincide with its common meaning it raises suspicions as to why the person is deviating from the common meaning. My guess here is that you dearly love the appellation of omniscience to your god, and aren't about to give it up, but at the same time find its meaning so troublesome that you need to change it to your own.
Hockeycowboy's definition of "omniscience": Knowing everything about the past and the present. (my guess here). Trouble is, it's really ludicrous when compared to its true meaning.

1020 God, all-knowing
The omniscience of God is that attribute by which he knows all things past, present and future.
source


Omniscience of God – God Knows All Things
The omniscience of God is the principle that God is all-knowing; that He encompasses all knowledge of the universe past, present, and future.
source


God is Omniscient
Definition:
The attribute of God by which God perfectly and eternally knows all things which can be known, past, present, and future.
source


The Omniscience of God
"God knows every future action. The fact that God gave prophets the capability to predict accurately very specific events in the distant future is one of the great evidences for the inspiration of the Bible (Thompson, 1999, p. 19). God has emphasized repeatedly that He knows the future, perhaps never more emphatically than when Jesus Himself prophesied (see Matthew 24:1-51; Mark 8:31; John 2:19-22). The fact that God knows the future does not imply that humans somehow lose freedom of choice. Just because God knows that something will happen, does not mean that He causes it (see Bales, 1974, p. 49). God cannot be taught anything about the future (Acts 17:31; John 14:3)."
source


Is God omniscient? What does it mean to be omniscient?
To say God is omniscient is to say that God knows all things or has all knowledge. As Creator of the heavens and the earth (Genesis 1:1), there is nothing made that He has not known (John 1:3).

God's omniscience includes knowledge of the future. He knows "the end from the beginning" (Isaiah 46:10). In fact, predictive knowledge is unique to God; detailed, accurate prophecy is His specialty. Our Lord issues this challenge to false gods: "declare to us the things to come, tell us what the future holds, so we may know that you are gods" (Isaiah 41:22-23 NIV). Any god worth its salt must know the future,
source


The word omniscience is not, strictly speaking, a biblical term. The word itself is not found in the Bible. It is a philosophical/theological word that has come into wide usage because, like the word trinity, it correctly describes the biblical evidence. The word means to see or know all things. For God, if this doctrine is true, everything is eternally “present.” I have recently been going through a box of old newspaper clippings from earlier years. To my astonishment, I had forgotten, not only many things that happened to me, but many of the people involved. Time dims our remembrance of much that has happened. God is not like that. He always knows what is past, present, and future, if he is omniscient.
source​

So believe whatever you want about god's abilities, but if I was an upright Christian I wouldn't try pawning off your notion of "omniscience" without immediate explanation.

Ultimately, then, promoting the idea that God knows the future, would lead a person, who meditates on the subject, to believe that He is the source of all the evil in the world, which contradicts Biblical teaching. -- Deuteronomy 32:4-6; James 1:13-15; Jeremiah 7:31; etc., etc., etc., not to mention contrary to the Jonah account.

I could care less about sources; these same sources probably teach the Trinity, and Hellfire, doctrines the Bible does not teach. And they're OK with supporting their respective country in war and killing others, even their brothers. They don't have God's Truth. Their actions deny Him!

 

[Hockeycowboy]

Why do you ask? Do you think that I am incorrect, or that Almighty God is not responsible for space and time as we define it?

Why do I ask? Because, opinions are a dime a dozen. We need to support what we believe with Scripture!
And I see you're Muslim, so that would be the Koran for you, the Bible for me. There is some agreement, between the two. Especially with regard to conduct. One big difference, tho, is that the Bible never supports Christians killing anyone, only to love others, even their enemy.

 

[Skwim]

Ultimately, then, promoting the idea that God knows the future, would lead a person, who meditates on the subject, to believe that He is the source of all the evil in the world, which contradicts Biblical teaching. -- Deuteronomy 32:4-6; James 1:13-15; Jeremiah 7:31; etc., etc., etc., not to mention contrary to the Jonah account.

Don't know about being omniscient = source of evil, but I'd certainly say that "I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things." (Isaiah 45:7) indicates the source of all evil is god. But go ahead and cherry pick the Bible as you may. You certainly won't be the first.

I could care less about sources; these same sources probably teach the Trinity, and Hellfire, doctrines the Bible does not teach. And they're OK with supporting their respective country in war and killing others, even their brothers. They don't have God's Truth. Their actions deny Him!

But they do illustrate the accepted meaning of the word, and that your concept of "omniscience" is way off the mark. As I say, you can pretend a word means whatever you need it to mean, but that doesn't validate it.

 

[Hockeycowboy]

Don't know about being omniscient = source of evil, but I'd certainly say that "I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things." (Isaiah 45:7) indicates the source of all evil is god. But go ahead and cherry pick the Bible as you may. You certainly won't be the first.

But they do illustrate the accepted meaning of the word, and that your concept of "omniscience" is way off the mark. As I say, you can pretend a word means whatever you need it to mean, but that doesn't validate it.

Pretend

Pretend

Pretend

Pretend

Pretend

all you want,

but in the end it's all self deception.​

Self-deception! Yeah right! You're the one wanting God to say, "I created evil"! Oops, too bad, it doesn't. Who's twisting the words?

You probably believe in common descent, don't you? Lol.

 

[Skwim]

Self-deception! Yeah right! You're the one wanting God to say, "I created evil"! Oops, too bad, it doesn't. Who's twisting the words?

Guess you missed my remark in post 219:

"So if god didn't mean he created evil, as in the past, then when he said "I. . .create evil" either he was doing so at that very moment,or was doing so at that very moment and continues to do so. Take your pick.

​

So, what's your choice ?

☐ God was creating evil at the moment he was speaking

☐ God was creating evil at the moment he was speaking and continues to do so


.​

 

[Hockeycowboy]

Guess you missed my remark in post 219:

"So if god didn't mean he created evil, as in the past, then when he said "I. . .create evil" either he was doing so at that very moment,or was doing so at that very moment and continues to do so. Take your pick.

​

So, what's your choice ?

☐ God was creating evil at the moment he was speaking

☐ God was creating evil at the moment he was speaking and continues to do so


.​

What's the context? Who was God talking to, and about whom? God, through Isaiah, was talking to Cyrus the Great, about Babylon. Babylon did meet with calamity, and the Israelites, two years later, experienced peace, being returned to their homeland.

Did God "create evil" for others? Will he? Yes! Whenever other groups -- or even individuals -- have attacked His people, God fights for them! You'd "create evil", too, to protect your loved ones! In fact, God has actually used others, like the court system, authorities, etc. -- "the Earth" -- to protect His people and accomplish His will. (Revelation 12:15-17)

[The symbolism used in the Scriptures is awesome! You could learn it, also, if you would be humble enough. - Luke 10:21]

 

[Skwim]

What's the context? Who was God talking to, and about whom? God, through Isaiah, was talking to Cyrus the Great, about Babylon. Babylon did meet with calamity, and the Israelites, two years later, experienced peace, being returned to their homeland.

Is this sad apologetic really supposed to give lie to god's statement: "I create evil"?

But never mind. Your battle with the truth of your scriptures is too difficult to watch.

Have a good day

 

[metis]

When "good" is created, "evil" is a by-product of that same creation. One cannot exist without the other.

 

[Eliab ben Benjamin]

Indeed, two sides of the same coin

 

[Oeste]

God is omniscient and knows the future. There is nothing to know that God doesn't know. In other words, He is not an ignorant God.

The idea that God could "choose not to know" is one of the more bizarre of the Watchtower teachings. First He would have to decide what it was it was He didn't want to know, then He gives Himself a bout of amnesia. It makes no sense whatsoever.

I've seen some of the objections on this board, and I have few moments, so I'll discuss some of them. Please feel free to respond. I'll try to get back as soon as possible but you may have to be patient at times.

Let's discuss Nineveh first. Did God make a mistake by pronouncing judgment on Nineveh? Not at all!

"...Yet 40 days and Nineveh will be overthrown." (Jonah 3:4)

"When God saw what they did and how they turned from their evil ways, he relented and did not bring on them the destruction he had threatened. (Jonah 3:10)

Contradiction? Proof that God doesn't know what on earth (or heaven) He's going to do? Not exactly...prior to the announcement against Nineveh, God specifically stated: "If that nation, against whom I have pronounced, turn from their evil, I will repent of the evil that I thought to do unto them." (Jeremiah 18:8)

Nineveh repented, and God did exactly as He stated He would do.

Secondly, let's look at Jonah 3:4. The hebrew word "haphak" is used here. Haphak can mean overthrown, but it also means to convert or change:

הָפַךְ hâphak, haw-fak'; a primitive root; to turn about or over; by implication, to change, overturn, return, pervert:—× become, change, come, be converted, give, make (a bed), overthrow (-turn), perverse, retire, tumble, turn (again, aside, back, to the contrary, every way).​

That's exactly what happened in Nineveh...they responded to Jonah's message, and much to Jonah's chagrin, they changed.

God's pronouncement was upheld, just as He stated.

 

[muhammad_isa]

..One big difference, tho, is that the Bible never supports Christians killing anyone, only to love others, even their enemy.

If you are a Quaker you might believe that..

UK (and many other countries) joined the II world war, quite rightly I would say, with no conflict in their duty to Almighty God in warding off evil..

 

[Unveiled Artist]

Self-deception! Yeah right! You're the one wanting God to say, "I created evil"! Oops, too bad, it doesn't. Who's twisting the words?

You probably believe in common descent, don't you? Lol.

Sorry.

/scratches her head/

Its right here:

7 I form the light, and create darkness; I make peace, and create evil. I am Jehovah, that doeth all these things.

If God created good, evil comes with the package. Its not that he agrees with evil. Its just when you create a positive, there will always be a negative "with it."

So, God created evil And that is okay. Thats how you were saved, by product of sin. If there was only good coming from God, then there would be no evil. If God did not create evil, how would it exist? How could the devil be the devil if god didnt create the angel (with the tendency to do evil) to begin with?

You kinda nee evil to be saved. Id say, as it says in Psalms as well, God created it for a reason. I dont see how that could be a problem?

 

[McBell]

God is omniscient and knows the future. There is nothing to know that God doesn't know. In other words, He is not an ignorant God.

The idea that God could "choose not to know" is one of the more bizarre of the Watchtower teachings. First He would have to decide what it was it was He didn't want to know, then He gives Himself a bout of amnesia. It makes no sense whatsoever.

I've seen some of the objections on this board, and I have few moments, so I'll discuss some of them. Please feel free to respond. I'll try to get back as soon as possible but you may have to be patient at times.

Let's discuss Nineveh first. Did God make a mistake by pronouncing judgment on Nineveh? Not at all!

"...Yet 40 days and Nineveh will be overthrown." (Jonah 3:4)

"When God saw what they did and how they turned from their evil ways, he relented and did not bring on them the destruction he had threatened. (Jonah 3:10)

Contradiction? Proof that God doesn't know what on earth (or heaven) He's going to do? Not exactly...prior to the announcement against Nineveh, God specifically stated: "If that nation, against whom I have pronounced, turn from their evil, I will repent of the evil that I thought to do unto them." (Jeremiah 18:8)

Nineveh repented, and God did exactly as He stated He would do.

Secondly, let's look at Jonah 3:4. The hebrew word "haphak" is used here. Haphak can mean overthrown, but it also means to convert or change:

הָפַךְ hâphak, haw-fak'; a primitive root; to turn about or over; by implication, to change, overturn, return, pervert:—× become, change, come, be converted, give, make (a bed), overthrow (-turn), perverse, retire, tumble, turn (again, aside, back, to the contrary, every way).​

That's exactly what happened in Nineveh...they responded to Jonah's message, and much to Jonah's chagrin, they changed.

God's pronouncement was upheld, just as He stated.

Ah, so God is not all powerful then...

 

[Oeste]

Ah, so God is not all powerful then...

You did not give a basis for your assertion, nor can I think of anything in my comment or scripture which would lead the reader to this conclusion.