Does God "CHOOSE" not to know the future?

[The Sparrow]

Well this is utterly stupid.
If I know someone is going to sleep tonight, that doesn't mean they can't act in another way external to sleeping.

Is your knowledge infallible (as God's supposedly is)?
If so, for that person not to actually sleep that night would violate gods infallibility.
So either
a) that person can not choose other than to sleep tonight
or
b) god cannot have knowledge about what will happen - meaning he is not omniscient.

And, if God knows what we will do in the future, then the future MUST be determined.

So I can determine you?[/QUOTE]
If you actually are flawlessly omniscient, yes.

 

[Ultimatum]

Is your knowledge infallible (as God's supposedly is)?

Red herring.

If so, for that person not to actually sleep that night would violate gods infallibility.

But I know that someone is going to sleep. I'll specify the paramater if you want me to.
Thus its not going to violate my determination.

If you actually are flawlessly omniscient, yes.

I'm predicting your future in that you'll go to sleep tonight.
If you do, I determined yur future according to the previous reply to the other poster.

 

[The Sparrow]

Red herring.

how so?
There are 3 main ingredients to the the premise of this thread.
1. the future choices of humans can be known ahead of time.
2. the knowledge is correct - infallibly so
3. the knowledge can exist in the same timeframe as the human who is about to make the choice exists.

But I know that someone is going to sleep. I'll specify the paramater if you want me to.
Thus its not going to violate my determination.

I don't understand what you are saying.

I'm predicting your future in that you'll go to sleep tonight.
If you do, I determined yur future according to the previous reply to the other poster.

No. Here's why.
1. You are guessing. You have no actual knowledge.
2. You are not possessing the qualities of omniscience and omnipotence.

I'll try to explain this again.
the problem is not that God's knowing it magically forces me to make that choice.
The problem is that IF IT CAN BE KNOWN what my choice is, before I make it, then the choice I will make must be deterministic.

It would be the same if some new technology was developed that infallibly could project an image of the future onto a screen.
The machine was always 100% accurate.

Scenario 1.
Someone turns on the machine and I see myself eating an apple at 12:00 noon tomorrow.
Can I choose to eat an orange tomorrow? yes or no?

Scenario 2.
Someone turns on the machine and they see me eating an apple at 12:00 noon tomorrow.
Can I choose to eat an orange tomorrow? yes or no?

Scenario 3.
No one turns on the machine and no one sees me eating an apple or an orange at 12:00 noon tomorrow.
Can I choose to eat an orange tomorrow? yes or no?

 

[McBell]

 

[The Sparrow]

Yes, you keep patronizingly globally dismissing, without actually addressing the specifics. I get it.

 

[McBell]

Yes, you keep patronizingly globally dismissing, without actually addressing the specifics. I get it.

No, you don't get it.

I have asked for one little itty bitty teeny tiny thing this whole thread, and not a single person has been able to present it.

So yeah, you carry on as though you get it.
It only makes for comical entertainment for me.

 

[Hockeycowboy]

I've heard the very same argument from JWs when they were posting here on RF. No doubt it's a stock belief of the organization. As for making sense in the light of god's omniscience, it doesn't. Can't have your cake and eat it too. The only time one could say god isn't aware of X is when it isn't immediately at mind, just as I know that 2 + 2 = 4, but I'm not consciously aware of it all the time. As for his observation that "if God knows what I'm going to do tomorrow at 6:00, then I don't have free will because God knows I'm going to do it." he's quite right (there are other reasons you don't have free will as well). You say you believe "God knows everything and does not choose not to know." Obviously you're using "know" in two different senses here. If god knows, but chooses not to, then in what sense does he know?

What about in the Book of Jonah? He said He was going to destroy Nineveh, but when the Ninevites repented and changed, then God changed His mind. That tells me God doesn't know the outcome. We are endowed with free will.

Besides, if God knows the choice people will make, then how come the Bible says that God 'felt regret' at what happened? That would make Him a self-inflicting sadist, not a loving Father!

 

[Skwim]

What about in the Book of Jonah? He said He was going to destroy Nineveh, but when the Ninevites repented and changed, then God changed His mind. That tells me God doesn't know the outcome. We are endowed with free will.

Besides, if God knows the choice people will make, then how come the Bible says that God 'felt regret' at what happened? That would make Him a self-inflicting sadist, not a loving Father!

Think a god who created evil ( Isaiah 45:7) is in keeping with a loving father? I don't.

 

[Hockeycowboy]

Think a god who created evil ( Isaiah 45:7) is in keeping with a loving father? I don't.

YOU used the past tense of the verb, NOT the Bible. So it's not saying that He 'began', or started, evil. But God "can" bring calamity on people, as He did with Babylon (whom the context was all about.)

To understand it otherwise, would contradict the rest of the Scriptures. But, I'm sure you think you know better, because you are a (worldly) "wise and intellectual" one. --Luke10:21

Am I right?

 

[Hockeycowboy]

But, if God knows everything does this mean he's in control of everything?

Not yet. 1 John 5:19 says that the Devil controls this world. Jesus Himself referred to Satan as the "ruler of this world".(John 12:31; 14:30) And at Luke 4:5-8, Satan stated as much, and Jesus didn't deny it.

"Knowing everything" -- omniscience -- does not involve knowing the future. Besides, having the viewpoint that God knows the future would ultimately lead one to believe that God is responsible for all the bad things that have happened.

James 1:13-15, and other Scriptures, would be a lie.

 

[Skwim]

YOU used the past tense of the verb, NOT the Bible. So it's not saying that He 'began', or started, evil.

Not understanding you. In Isaiah 45:6-7 the Bible has god saying:

Isaiah 45:6-7 (KJ21)
6 that they may know from the rising of the sun and from the west that there is none besides Me. I am the Lord, and there is none else.

7 I form the light, and create darkness; I make peace, and create evil; I, the Lord, do all these things."
​

Are you saying that at the moment he was speaking he was creating evil and peace, but before and after that moment he was not? He no longer creates light, darkness, peace, and evil?

Please clarify.

​

 

[Eliab ben Benjamin]

I think we need to define a Creator concept ..
Perhaps all energy .. who became aware ..
created to experience and learn

 

[Skwim]

What about in the Book of Jonah? He said He was going to destroy Nineveh, but when the Ninevites repented and changed, then God changed His mind. That tells me God doesn't know the outcome. We are endowed with free will.

Besides, if God knows the choice people will make, then how come the Bible says that God 'felt regret' at what happened? That would make Him a self-inflicting sadist, not a loving Father!

Yeah, god does mistakes, doesn't he. No one is perfect.

 

[KBC1963]

God created a reality of limited possibility in order to allow for free will choices to be exercised. At our creation we were given specific powers of control within pre-set boundaries that God set for this reality. This is why God can know for certain what our limited free will choices can potentially cause and allows him the ability to specify future results of those choices. God is omniscient in that he has the power to set the causal potential for anything he creates and in this way he can cause his desired final reality to occur.

We can see in genesis what the ultimate desired reality of God is when we consider the story of the creation of man. God's intent when creating man was to form an image of himself and God describes the initial formation of man as being a solitary being and this state of existence he asserts as not being good;
Genesis 2:18 And the LORD God said, It is not good that the man should be alone; I will make him an help meet for him.

What we are seeing here in the creation story is a replay of God's reality prior to his creative actions in forming mankind. God was alone and he desired to have others he could exist with in order to improve his reality. God had come to understand that to simply have robotic creations to exist with does not provide the level of interaction that he desires which he shows us in the creation story;
18And the LORD God said, It is not good that the man should be alone; I will make him an help meet for him. 19And out of the ground the LORD God formed every beast of the field, and every fowl of the air; and brought them unto Adam to see what he would call them: and whatsoever Adam called every living creature, that was the name thereof. 20And Adam gave names to all cattle, and to the fowl of the air, and to every beast of the field; but for Adam there was not found an help meet for him.

God gained understanding that nothing he could form in a mechanistic fashion could provide the level of compatibility that was fulfilling to him and that the only way to get such a level of compatibility that he desired was to actually form another being from his own essence which we can see represented in the description of how Adams help was finally created;
Genesis 2:21 And the LORD God caused a deep sleep to fall upon Adam, and he slept: and he took one of his ribs, and closed up the flesh instead thereof; 22And the rib, which the LORD God had taken from man, made he a woman, and brought her unto the man. 23And Adam said, This is now bone of my bones, and flesh of my flesh: she shall be called Woman, because she was taken out of Man.

We are not the first creations of God intended to be his help/companions. Our creation is God's intent to add more intelligent free willed beings to his reality besides what was already in existence and he shows us this in the pattern that was used in the formation of our reality. First the solitary man, then the initial formation of lesser creatures that didn't provide the desired outcome, then the formation of a helper who fulfilled his desire and finally the union of those two to form more like themselves;
Genesis 1:26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness....

The only problem with creating others like himself is the inherent possibilities that come with having a free will. however, God has limited the potentials of his creation to give them time to make their choice to either continue to exist with them or not. The only option we do not have the power to control is whether we could continue to exist if we choose not to be part of their desired reality.

 

[Hockeycowboy]

Yeah, god does mistakes, doesn't he. No one is perfect.

No, the passage tells me that God has feelings, that we can hurt Him or make Him happy. (Proverbs 27:11)

If you did something bad, and your parents said that they were hurt, is that what would come to your mind, that they 'were imperfect'? Or rather, that they had feelings? The imperfection would be yours for hurting them, not theirs. (Deuteronomy 32:4,5)

 

[Skwim]

No, the passage tells me that God has feelings, that we can hurt Him or make Him happy. (Proverbs 27:11)

Not taking about Proverbs 27:11, but the book of Jonah. Recall what you said "What about in the Book of Jonah? He said He was going to destroy Nineveh,"? Well, speaking to that issue Jonah 3:10 says

(KJV)
10 And God saw their works, that they turned from their evil way; and God repented of the evil, that he had said that he would do unto them; and he did it not.​

God made the mistake of threatening them with the evil, which is why my comment ".Yeah, god does mistakes, doesn't he. No one is perfect" is right on.

Oh yes, how about the other matter I asked you about:

Hockeycowboy:

YOU used the past tense of the verb, NOT the Bible. So it's not saying that He 'began', or started, evil.
​

Skwim:

Not understanding you. In Isaiah 45:6-7 the Bible has god saying:

Isaiah 45:6-7 (KJ21)
6 that they may know from the rising of the sun and from the west that there is none besides Me. I am the Lord, and there is none else.

7 I form the light, and create darkness; I make peace, and create evil; I, the Lord, do all these things."​

Are you saying that at the moment he was speaking he was creating evil and peace, but before and after that moment he was not? He no longer creates light, darkness, peace, and evil?

Please clarify.
​

So, can you clarify or not?


.

 

[Oeste]

Hello everyone!
My first post here, and my first attempt to use your quote feature. Please bear with me if things go wrong.

I'll try to explain this again.
the problem is not that God's knowing it magically forces me to make that choice.
The problem is that IF IT CAN BE KNOWN what my choice is, before I make it, then the choice I will make must be deterministic.

It would be the same if some new technology was developed that infallibly could project an image of the future onto a screen.
The machine was always 100% accurate.

Hypothetical...there is no such machine. Let's substitute your machine with God, who is always 100% accurate.

Scenario 1.
Someone turns on the machine and I see myself eating an apple at 12:00 noon tomorrow.
Can I choose to eat an orange tomorrow? yes or no?

If God says "Sparrow, you are eating an apple tomorrow", then Sparrow will eat an apple tomorrow. If God says "Sparrow you are eating an orange tomorrow", then you are eating an orange tomorrow.

If God doesn't speak then Sparrow will eat an apple, orange, tomato or whatever he wants to eat tomorrow.

None of this affects our free will.

Man's free will is not absolute. We do not have free will choices to do anything and everything we would like to do. Some of our free will choices are confined by the universe (physics) of God's creation, and some will be confined by God's will. Remember, in the Christian universe, it's God's, not man's will that is supreme.

For example, you are walking down a long hallway. At the end of the hallway it branches left and right. But your true destination is the grocery shop on the other side of the wall, which is actually straight ahead. Physically you cannot walk through the wall to get to your destination, yet no one claims your free will is diminished because you are unable to do so. Your free will is shaped by the physics around you (God's creation). If we had the "free will" you are implying, then we would be freely able to walk through the wall, under the wall, or above the wall.

Likewise, if God says you will eat an apple tomorrow, there is no way you can eat an orange instead. You will eat the apple. Your free will has not been diminished by God's proclamation anymore than the hallway diminished your free will by forcing you to the left or right. In the first instance, your free will is shaped by the physical universe God created around you, in the second, it is by vocal proclamation of God..

There is a tendency by some to interpret "free will" as the ability to do anything that comes to mind. We've never had that ability, but we've always had free will. It is simply constrained by our physical universe or edict of God. In other words, to rail against God's pronouncement that you will eat an orange tomorrow as being deterministic and nullifying our free will is like the man who rails against the hallway proclaiming he doesn't have free will because he's not free to walk through the wall.

As to scripture, see Isaiah 55: 10-11: ""For as the rain and the snow come down from heaven, And do not return there without watering the earth And making it bear and sprout, And furnishing seed to the sower and bread to the eater; So will My word be which goes forth from My mouth; It will not return to Me empty, Without accomplishing what I desire, And without succeeding in the matter for which I sent it"

 

[Hockeycowboy]

Not taking about Proverbs 27:11, but the book of Jonah. Recall what you said "What about in the Book of Jonah? He said He was going to destroy Nineveh,"? Well, speaking to that issue Jonah 3:10 says

(KJV)
10 And God saw their works, that they turned from their evil way; and God repented of the evil, that he had said that he would do unto them; and he did it not.​

God made the mistake of threatening them with the evil, which is why my comment ".Yeah, god does mistakes, doesn't he. No one is perfect" is right on.

Oh yes, how about the other matter I asked you about:

Hockeycowboy:

YOU used the past tense of the verb, NOT the Bible. So it's not saying that He 'began', or started, evil.
​

Skwim:

Not understanding you. In Isaiah 45:6-7 the Bible has god saying:

Isaiah 45:6-7 (KJ21)
6 that they may know from the rising of the sun and from the west that there is none besides Me. I am the Lord, and there is none else.

7 I form the light, and create darkness; I make peace, and create evil; I, the Lord, do all these things."​

Are you saying that at the moment he was speaking he was creating evil and peace, but before and after that moment he was not? He no longer creates light, darkness, peace, and evil?

Please clarify.​

So, can you clarify or not?


.

RE: Jonah, God changing His mind, shows He is imperfect?! Or that He's forgiving? I think the latter.

RE: Isaiah 45:6,7......the account does not say, 'I created evil', as in past tense. That's all I was saying. But I think you knew that. Quite self-explanatory.

 

[Skwim]

RE: Jonah, God changing His mind, shows He is imperfect?! Or that He's forgiving? I think the latter.

The forgiving is only secondary to the reason. Why do people change their mind? Because they were right? No, because they were wrong. Do you change your mind when you've made the right decision?

RE: Isaiah 45:6,7......the account does not say, 'I created evil', as in past tense. That's all I was saying. But I think you knew that. Quite self-explanatory.

Right. So if god didn't mean he created evil, as in the past, then when he said "I. . .create evil" either he was doing so at that very moment,or was doing so at that very moment and continues to do so. Take your pick.

 

[Hockeycowboy]

The forgiving is only secondary to the reason. Why do people change their mind? Because they were right? No, because they were wrong. Do you change your mind when you've made the right decision?

Right. So if god didn't mean he created evil, as in the past, then when he said "I. . .create evil" either he was doing so at that very moment,or was doing so at that very moment and continues to do so. Take your pick.

This entire thread is about God knowing the future. I was using the Bible in Jonah as evidence that God does not know the future.....God said He was going to destroy Nineveh, because they were wicked. But, they changed and repented.
Therefore, God forgave them! They changed, then He changed.

Are you one of those people, the Apostle Peter spoke of in 2 Peter 3:5, who are "willfully ignorant", because you want to continue in your "lust" (verse3) for wrong things?