Does Free Will Exist?

[Skwim]

examining the options.

And is the examination a completely random process, OR are there casual factors within it? If the latter, then whatever the final conclusion may be it's dependent on the causal factors that go into its arrival (arriving at the conclusion). Nope, the examining is simply a cause that itself owes its own existence to prior causes. And as I said, there is no free will that can be shoe-horned into the process.

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[QuestioningMind]

This 15 minute video, Why Free Will Doesn’t Exist, was posted to me by an atheist I have been posting to on another forum. I do not agree with him that we do not have free will. Below is the gist of his argument. The first two paragraphs below are a summary of what is in the video and the last paragraph is this atheist’s personal opinion.

What makes free will an illusion is that the choice you make will always be either the choice to do what you most want to do (even when it overrides your wanting to do something else) or the choice you don't want to make but are forced to make.

We like to think that we have free will, that we could make choices other than the ones we make. However, free will -- the ability to have acted differently -- is an illusion. No matter what choice you ever made, you never really had the ability to have chosen differently.

Since free will is an illusion, it's also nothing but a lame excuse for certain problems that theists run into, for example, why a good god would allow evil to exist.​

I don't agree with this, since it is possible for a person to have conflicting wants. Take the going to the gym to workout example. A person can both want to stay in good physical shape and want to sit around and be lazy both at the same time. And I am quite capable of influencing which of those wants will be prevalent. I can choose to focus o how absolutely exhausted I currently am and this will increase the chances that I will choose to sit around and be lazy. Or I can choose to focus on how disgusted I am when I look at my naked body, in which case I'd increase the chances that I'd decide to go and workout at the gym. As long as I have an awareness of how I can influence my wants I then have the ability to influence what wants I choose.

 

[syo]

And is the examination a completely random process, OR are there casual factors within it?

Examination is evaluating the options. We were born with the ability to evaluate. Evaluation is not static, it depends on many factors. The factors may change. Free choice is a game of our abilities to choose.

 

[Skwim]

I don't agree with this, since it is possible for a person to have conflicting wants. Take the going to the gym to workout example. A person can both want to stay in good physical shape and want to sit around and be lazy both at the same time. And I am quite capable of influencing which of those wants will be prevalent. I can choose to focus o how absolutely exhausted I currently am and this will increase the chances that I will choose to sit around and be lazy. Or I can choose to focus on how disgusted I am when I look at my naked body, in which case I'd increase the chances that I'd decide to go and workout at the gym.

So just how did the conclusion of the "choosing" come into being? Why did you conclude one rather than the other? Assuming it wasn't an absolutely random act, something had to persuade you conclude A rather than B, and whatever that something was functioned as the cause, something that would preclude an act of the will that was free.

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[Skwim]

Examination is evaluating the options. We were born with the ability to evaluate. Evaluation is not static, it depends on many factors. The factors may change. Free choice is a game of our abilities to choose.

And in as much as choosing is an illusion, it's nature as free is no less illusional.

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[Koldo]

Ah but the judge has the ability to chose innocent.

Or why else have judges? If you believe the judge can only chose guilty, we might as well just have executioners.

But it's not the case, more evidence free will exist.

I was just playing around with the fact that if the criminal had no choice then the judge has no choice either. The criminal and the judge are in the same position on this sense.

 

[Koldo]

No, I'm a dead man walking already. Rare auto-immune disease. Nothing I can do will preserve my health (no cure just treat the symptoms). I'd love nothing more than go out in a blaze of glory. But I chose to not to.

Why did you choose not to ?

You have said that it is because it is detrimental to your health. We all do things detrimental to our health all the time, by itself that doesn't stop anyone from doing anything unless they want to preserve their health.

 

[Nimos]

We have the ability to eat the apple. We also have the ability to eat the orange. These two alone are options. We are born in this world to cultivate a path out of options.

The amount of options or the ability to do different things is not really relevant to the question of free will. Because the reason you choose one option over another is, because you desire that more than the other, otherwise you would have chosen differently. So the issue is still why you prefer something over something else? And for in the instant of orange or an apple, it might be because you like the taste of orange better or because you think its more healthy or whatever reason you might have. But the decision that you want an orange more than an apple is still based on what you believe is best or want the most, which is why you chose that.

 

[Koldo]

I don't agree with this, since it is possible for a person to have conflicting wants. Take the going to the gym to workout example. A person can both want to stay in good physical shape and want to sit around and be lazy both at the same time. And I am quite capable of influencing which of those wants will be prevalent. I can choose to focus o how absolutely exhausted I currently am and this will increase the chances that I will choose to sit around and be lazy. Or I can choose to focus on how disgusted I am when I look at my naked body, in which case I'd increase the chances that I'd decide to go and workout at the gym. As long as I have an awareness of how I can influence my wants I then have the ability to influence what wants I choose.

Why would you choose one or the other ?
I mean, on what basis would you choose whether to focus on you being exhausted or on you being disgusted at how you look ?

 

[syo]

why you prefer something over something else?

cause I can do it.

 

[Nimos]

I want to snort coke off a prostitutes rear while gambling my life savings away.

I chose not to because snorting coke off a hooker rear in Vegas is detrimental to my health.

Free will exercised and proven.

Free will is the ability to chose a different path than is natural for you.

This is why its dangerous to deny it.

If no free will someone can rape and murder as much as they want. Then declare "i had no choice, it was just something i wanted to do".

No, you want to stay healthy more than snorting coke that is why you choose not too. Yes, basically it doesn't matter what you do, as you always choose what you want, it doesn't necessarily have to be healthy or beneficial for you.

Someone raping or committing a murder still end up with wanting to do that more than not. Its not the same as saying that they are not guilty. But reaching the conclusion that murdering someone is what you want and therefore end up doing it, is based on a whole lot of other things which you take into consideration to react such conclusion. Its obviously a lot more complicated than what makes you choose between an orange or apple. But in the end, if you don't want to murder someone you won't do it.

 

[Nimos]

cause I can do it.

What do you think makes you eat an apple over a turd for instance?

 

[Enoch07]

I was just playing around with the fact that if the criminal had no choice then the judge has no choice either. The criminal and the judge are in the same position on this sense.

They both have choices. The police officer that arrested the criminal had a choice. He could have chose to overlook the crime. This happens all the time.

Ever got pulled over for speeding to just get a warning instead of a ticket? That's a choice the cop made. He could have gave you a ticket, because you broke the law, but instead he gave you a warning and told you to slow down.

 

[Enoch07]

Why did you choose not to ?

I chose not to because I lived the first half of my life that way.

I chose to live the rest of my life peacefully.

But I am ignoring what I naturally want (coke and hookers), to live life differently.

 

[Enoch07]

No, you want to stay healthy more than snorting coke that is why you choose not too.

I can't stay healthy. A disease is killing me as we speak. If anything doing a ton of blow will ease my pain and snuff me out mercifully. I still chose to die slow, long, drawn out, and painful death.

Someone raping or committing a murder still end up with wanting to do that more than not. It

So? They can chose not to. And that is the point!

 

[QuestioningMind]

So just how did the conclusion of the "choosing" come into being? Why did you conclude one rather than the other? Assuming it wasn't an absolutely random act, something had to persuade you conclude A rather than B, and whatever that something was functioned as the cause, something that would preclude an act of the will that was free.

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I concluded one over the other because I am aware that what I focus on can influence my final decision. I can consciously choose to focus my thoughts on how tired I am or on how fat I am. My thoughts effect my wants and behavior. The more aware I am of that reality the more I am able to control my thoughts as opposed to letting my thoughts control me.

 

[Skwim]

I concluded one over the other because I am aware that what I focus on can influence my final decision.

I'm not driving at the reason, the "because," but the method, the "how." How is it you concluded one rather than the other?

I can consciously choose to focus my thoughts on how tired I am or on how fat I am.

Fine. Then how did you arrive at the conclusion ("choice") you did? How did your brain conclude that it was better to focus your thoughts on, say, your tiredness rather than on your fatness?

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[QuestioningMind]

So just how did the conclusion of the "choosing" come into being? Why did you conclude one rather than the other? Assuming it wasn't an absolutely random act, something had to persuade you conclude A rather than B, and whatever that something was functioned as the cause, something that would preclude an act of the will that was free.

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My thoughts influence my wants. The more aware I am of this the more I am capable of influencing what thoughts I have. The less aware I am of my thoughts the less control I have over my wants. The more aware I am of my thoughts the more control I can exercise over my thoughts and thus the more control I have over my wants.

So what persuaded me to choose A over B? What I consciously chose to focus my thoughts on.

 

[QuestioningMind]

Why would you choose one or the other ?
I mean, on what basis would you choose whether to focus on you being exhausted or on you being disgusted at how you look ?

An awareness that I can possess two contradictory wants at the same time. I can have short term wants and long term wants. And by being aware that my thoughts can and do influence my wants, I can consciously choose to influence my thoughts by consciously weighing the pros and cons of the particular wants that I have.

 

[Skwim]

My thoughts influence my wants. The more aware I am of this the more I am capable of influencing what thoughts I have. The less aware I am of my thoughts the less control I have over my wants. The more aware I am of my thoughts the more control I can exercise over my thoughts and thus the more control I have over my wants.

So what persuaded me to choose A over B? What I consciously chose to focus my thoughts on.

And I can only ask, what caused you to chose to focus your thoughts on A rather than B? There has to be something that controls the direction your thinking goes or else your thinking is a completely random event. And whatever that controlling "something" happens to be it negates any freedom of the will. Your will was controlled by that "something."

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