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Featured Does Free Will Exist?

Discussion in 'General Religious Debates' started by Trailblazer, May 24, 2019.

  1. Nimos

    Nimos Active Member

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    People may find this one interesting:

     
  2. bobhikes

    bobhikes infinitologist
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    What I believe is that we have the will to stop. Unlike free will you don't decided to anything you want. You are presented with an action and then decide to do it or not to do it. Situations create needed actions, like the need to eat but we have the ability to say no and refrain from eating. Not only is this the case for us but all life has the same ability to some extent.
     
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  3. charlie sc

    charlie sc Active Member

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    The concept of free will took a bit of a dint with the advent of the unconscious mind with Freud. If there’s anything we got from Freud, is how the unconscious mind influences and even controls the conscious mind and it’s impossible to ever completely know the unconscious mind. Therefore, to be controlled or influenced by thoughts you’re not aware of puts a bit of a handicap on free will.
     
  4. LuisDantas

    LuisDantas Aura of atheification
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    I am also developing my stockpiles of negopobalism, which had taken a hit last week. If all runs smoothly, they will be back to normal tomorrow.

    Or maybe not. How can either of us tell?

    (Sorry, but that is such a cliche, and it does not say anything whatsoever)

    Or something? Such as circunstances, limitations, etc?

    How do you know that there are any such situations at all? Out of faith alone? Because it feels right?

    I think that presuming free will and lending it significance may have much more dangerous implications, as best illustrated by certain results in politics and law.

    And that would change nothing, nor would it have any reason to.

    Do you truly think that would change anything?

    As things are, there is no functional such concept.

    That happens all the time, you know.
     
  5. columbus

    columbus Conservative Catholic from Hell

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    I think that this is spot on.

    Some illusions are very strong. Take horizons as an example. We can see them, talk about them, make pictures of them, etc. But they don't objectively exist. They are an illusion created by our limited power of perception.

    Similarly, free will is an illusion created by our limited ability to perceive the causes of our choices. But those causes do exist, and are beyond our control. So our will isn't really free.
    Tom
     
  6. Koldo

    Koldo Incredible Member

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    This is essentially the position I hold.

    You have said: "My will can override what I WANT". In my perspective, your will is your want. They are not separated. I will try to explain what I mean.

    To say that free will doesn't exist sounds outright contradictory at first glance. It certainly seems to contradict our own subjective experience. For instance, we have been able to, time and time again, resist the urge to do something we really wanted to do. Yesterday I have resisted the urge to buy a snack I really appreciate eating. So, how can I say that free will doesn't exist while at the same time acknowledge that we can resist our desires, even strong desires ?

    The answer is: because if you were to ask me why I resisted the urge to buy that snack I would tell you it is because that snack is not gluten free and I want to try to have a gluten free diet for a while. Notice how I had to refer to the word 'want' to explain why I chose what I did ?

    Whenever I think of the reason as to why I chose to do something the word 'want' is always present.

    Now, of course, it is common for people to do what they don't really want... in a sense. For example, you might not want to work today but you still go ahead and do it even though you really didn't want to. So how do I explain that ? I explain that by saying that even though you didn't want to work in a certain day you didn't want to face the consequences of not working even more so. By not working you might get fired from your job and end up being forced to beg for money or even live in the streets. You do rather work than face that though.

    In essence this means there is an hierarchy between your 'wants', and since choices come in packages ( for most of us, we can't have a good standard of living AND refuse to work, just to cite one example ), we end up choosing the package that suits what we want the most.

    This leads to the point that if I knew the exact hierarchy between your 'wants' at any given moment I could know exactly how you would choose if asked any given choice. This is what leads some people to say there is no free will.
     
  7. robocop (actually)

    robocop (actually) Well-Known Member
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    I think free will doesn't exist, but we're hard wired to believe it does.
     
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  8. Koldo

    Koldo Incredible Member

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    I don't remember ever choosing to like something over anything else. Do you ?

    If you were to ask me what ice cream flavor I prefer I would think of which flavor brought me the greatest joy. I would just compare the experiences. There would be no choice involved.
     
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  9. David T

    David T Well-Known Member
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    The fallacy of the arguement is that it believes it's "objective". it's not that would contradict it's premise. Since it's not objective and purely subjective one has to ask what is it subjective to?

    It makes no statement beyond itself so it's just narrcisism. I believe x to be true therefore x is true because I believe it to be true. It's circular reasoning dressed up to make believe it's saying something.
     
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  10. SalixIncendium

    SalixIncendium Resident Hermit
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    Aren't all terms made-up?
     
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  11. charlie sc

    charlie sc Active Member

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    Since you’ve used quotation marks, where in the video does he say objective?
     
  12. SalixIncendium

    SalixIncendium Resident Hermit
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  13. columbus

    columbus Conservative Catholic from Hell

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    Yes.
    But some refer to concepts with objective existence, such as hydrogen and gravity.

    It doesn't matter what you believe, hydrogen and gravity exist.
    Other terms refer to things that have no objective existence, only a subjective belief. Such as God and scriptures and free will and horizons.
    Tom
     
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  14. SalixIncendium

    SalixIncendium Resident Hermit
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    So a better way to put it would have been "a term for a made up concept?"

    And I can objectively prove the scriptures exist. :p
     
  15. David T

    David T Well-Known Member
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    he says I am a barking seal barking at a shadow and nothing more therefore that is all there is me barking at shadows behaviorly.

    In that regard he is correct he lives in a fantasy of his own creation. That is not reality but a fantasy. This Is a bit like the idiotic "what is reality question" or "why is there something rather than nothing. "

    This is an extremely old debate in Christianity. Calvin saw it as proof for god this individual sees it as proof as well for no god. . Calvin is a goofball. It's just christian philosophical crap repackaged is all. who cares? It deserves the response.....smart folks are idiots. giphy.gif
     
  16. 12jtartar

    12jtartar Active Member
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    Skwim,
    Stop a Moment and think about what you are saying. Are you telling me that you never make decisions, you do not decide to do one thing or another? That is just as preposterous as saying, I do not breath. Every day, you, as well as all humans, except for unconscious ones, make decisions, many times. For most people, their decisions are gratuitous, for their advantage, but for those who love their neighbor, they put the other person first, Philippians 2:2-4. This is one of the things that Jesus said would show the true religion, John 13:34,34. Romans 13:8-10. Agape!!!
     
  17. charlie sc

    charlie sc Active Member

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    Uhhh, ok so no answer to my question. This is about free-will, not necessarily about god. Your response was confusing if not barking nonsense :D are you the child in picture?
     
  18. David T

    David T Well-Known Member
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    Just Methodist vs Calvinism repackaged is new drag. Might as well talk about what is reality. Why is there something rather than nothing etc. We don't evolve nearly as quickly as we pretend we do.
     
  19. David T

    David T Well-Known Member
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    Oh wow totally different than the Methodist vs Calvinism debate. How many centuries ago? Please same nonsense in new drag doesnt make it remotely valid orrid philosophy is still horrid philosophy regardless how it's dressed up.
    You can dress a pig any way you want to it's still a pig and really if you can't move beyond Wesely and Calvin it's just southern Baptist in Micky mouse clothing is all. Evolve doesn't mean change of clothing. Wait Mickey is a cross dresser omg!!
    CN_mini_pigs_10_jef_141003_1x1_1600.jpg
     
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  20. Skwim

    Skwim Veteran Member

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    In the sense that decisions/deciding are undirected by controlling influences, yes. Decisions amount to choosing, which I've already explained doesn't exist---see previous posts.

    I disagree.

    Yes, I understand. In order for Christianity to hold together it's imperative that the concept of free will be true. So, there is no way Christians can embrace their religion while at the same time deny free will. I get it; you're stuck with need and irrationality.

    .
     
    #60 Skwim, May 25, 2019
    Last edited: May 25, 2019
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