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Featured Does Free Will Cause Wars?

Discussion in 'Same Faith Debates' started by james bond, Jun 21, 2017.

  1. james bond

    james bond Well-Known Member

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    I think all people are for world peace, but we have not had world peace in anyone's lifetime. In Christianity, God gave free will to the angels and it caused war in heaven. Later, God gave free will to humans and it led to the fall. I don't think the fall led to war. The fall led to:

    [​IMG]

    intrusion, death, disease, pain, suffering, emotional anguish, but not war. One could argue that war outputs the aforementioned so they're related. Yet, what caused war in the first place? It wasn't sin. It was free will. Thus, how could a perfect world still have had free will, but no war?
     
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  2. LuisDantas

    LuisDantas Aura of atheification
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    Describe or define free will.

    I never met a definition that was both relatable to the real world and meaningful, so I don't really use that concept.

    But if you manage that trick, maybe I can answer your questions in the OP.
     
  3. Mestemia

    Mestemia Advocatus Diaboli
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    Yes
     
  4. Stevicus

    Stevicus Veteran Member
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    It depends on what you mean by "free will." I don't think humans have that much free will, since too much of our biological existence is out of our control. This means that our choices are made within the narrow parameters which have been predetermined for us. Our bodies are limited. We require food, water, sleep - at the very minimum. We feel pain, suffering, emotional anguish. We are vulnerable to disease, excessive heat/cold, or any number of other conditions. And if our biological limits are tested, then our free will is also tested.

    One of the more basic reasons why wars happen is because people are hungry. One tribe is hungry and has no food, yet hears of another tribe that has plenty of food. So they go in and take it by force and kill anyone who resists - all because God designed their bodies to require ample amounts of food to survive. Without that limitation, then free will would certainly be more "free."
     
  5. joe1776

    joe1776 Well-Known Member

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    Nope. Arrogance causes wars. Arrogance is an attitude that leads to behavior that satisfies the need to feel superior to others.

    Our tribe is superior to theirs!
    Our race is superior to theirs!
    Our religion is superior to theirs!
    Our nation is superior to theirs!
     
    #5 joe1776, Jun 21, 2017
    Last edited: Jun 21, 2017
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  6. Skwim

    Skwim Veteran Member

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    Which brought war upon war upon war, and no world peace whatsoever.

    Conclusion: Either god likes to see his creatures war against each other and a world without peace. OR, he doesn't care if his creatures war against each other and the world go on without peace.

    In any case, he has chosen not to do anything about it, yet demands praise, devotion, and love.

    Just remember peeps, praise god from whom all blessings flow, and . . . . . . .well . . . . . forget about all the rest.

    .
     
  7. Saint Frankenstein

    Saint Frankenstein I'm not deaf, I'm just a real bad listener
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    You thought wrong.
     
  8. james bond

    james bond Well-Known Member

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    Free will allows arrogance and selfishness in economic matters.
     
  9. james bond

    james bond Well-Known Member

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    >>Which brought war upon war upon war, and no world peace whatsoever.

    Conclusion: Either god likes to see his creatures war against each other and a world without peace. OR, he doesn't care if his creatures war against each other and the world go on without peace.<<

    Are you drooling as you get to blame God? It's not God that was the cause, but the demons and superdemons like Lucifer. It's not God that was the cause, but humans who decided war was in their interests.

    >>In any case, he has chosen not to do anything about it, yet demands praise, devotion, and love.<<

    This is where you are wrong. He has chosen to let humans settle their own affairs because of free will. He will do something about it when the time comes. Thus, with what God has allowed he deserves praise, devotion and love. Love begats love. Just call me Brother Love, Brother Skwim.
     
  10. james bond

    james bond Well-Known Member

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    "Free will” means that God gives humans the opportunity to make choices that genuinely affect their destiny. For example, you choosing becoming an atheist has affected your destiny.
     
  11. james bond

    james bond Well-Known Member

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    >>It depends on what you mean by "free will."<<

    See post #10.

    >>One of the more basic reasons why wars happen is because people are hungry.<<

    I was taught in economics that hungry people riot against the government and not a motive for war. It has been prophecized that one of the things that will occur is a great famine before Armageddon. We have learned that people dying of hunger is that it is a problem of food distribution and not so much famine. I tend to agree that it isn't famine, but this prophecized one will be largest ever seen.
     
  12. LuisDantas

    LuisDantas Aura of atheification
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    Oh, it is all-out fiction then.

    So no, it does not cause wars here in the Real World (TM).

    Although it is quite possible that the belief in its existence created or contributed to several wars. Sovereignity, for instance, is an often-presented reason to justify wars.
     
  13. Skwim

    Skwim Veteran Member

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    Hey it was you, not me, who said, " God gave free will to humans and it led to the fall." And from what Christians have said time and again, the reason humans behave so badly, which would include warring with one another, is that A & E took a bite out of the apple, and the reason they were able to do so is because they had free will.

    Even if it was demons and super demons, considering god's omnipotence it's still his fault they're still around giving everyone grief. What's he waiting for, a lull in all the havoc before telling them they're out of a job?

    OMG! You mean eventually he'll step in after the carnage has reached some critical point, after millions upon millions of people have undergone lives of needless suffering, and make it all nicy-nicy? Okay. I'll leave you in your fantasy world of a "loving" god who creates evil and permits suffering yet deserves praise, love, and devotion for it.

    .
     
    #13 Skwim, Jun 22, 2017
    Last edited: Jun 22, 2017
  14. Stevicus

    Stevicus Veteran Member
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    I was referring to more primitive wars back when governments were not quite as elaborate as they are now. A tribal chieftain would be just as hungry as everyone else in the tribe, so there'd be no real "government" to riot against. What you're referring to are times when governments have food and resources, yet refuse to distribute equally to the people. That's when riots happen.
     
  15. james bond

    james bond Well-Known Member

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    No, it's non-fiction. The Bible is a non-fiction book. We already went over this. Yet, I think we have come full circle and you're still at the same place where you started. I think I have better explanations for questions that come up. I think that my faith has deepened from my experience here.
     
  16. viole

    viole Ontological Naturalist
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    And why did He do that? He could have easily made being atheist as repellent to humans as eating pig's crap. So, why did He put natural barriers to my possible will to eat pig's crap, and not to become an atheist?

    Does He rate the dangers to get miserable in this life (as it is to be expected if you indulge in eating pigs crap) higher than the dangers of spending eternity by gnashing our dentures?

    Ciao

    - viole
     
  17. Mestemia

    Mestemia Advocatus Diaboli
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    ouch.
    That your faith deepens each time you are proven to be flat out wrong is actually most disturbing.
     
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  18. james bond

    james bond Well-Known Member

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    Ouch. I'm trying to cut down on eating pork due to Pastor Joel, but it just so happened that I made ribs.

    >>And why did He do that?<<

    All he did was give us and the angels free will. This is just my opinion, but I think God didn't want robots without free will to worship, respect and appreciate him. Maybe he did that to weed out the riff-raff since he is prescient.
     
  19. viole

    viole Ontological Naturalist
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    Why? Is Joel a muslim? No surprise he is not so polular in North Europe. Everybody eats pork here.

    Ooh, the Almighty needs worshippers who are not robots. I am sure His Ego would not be so excited if worshippers are programmed to do so. Of course, as the creator of the Universe I need free willed worshippers, that is why I created the whole Universe, for Thor's sake. It was so depressing here before all those worshippers.

    Well, does that mean that the angels are not so into eating pigs crap, either?

    :)

    Ciao

    - viole
     
  20. DavidFirth

    DavidFirth Well-Known Member

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    I think you're right but I also don't think you're going to get many folks here to agree with you.
     
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