Does a god exist?

[ElishaElijah]

The testimony of experiences by theists are always legit, right? There is a self-induced emotional experience is doing ritual, doing certain acts, active prayer and belief, etc. Some theists feel good in their experiences of doing charity work, as do atheists. All these emotions and feelings are legit.

Notice my testimony wasn’t a ritual, self induced emotional experience, God showed up and delivered me. I know the real from the fake, I can spot a spiritual fraud.

If you’re familiar with the Parable of Sower, Jesus explains what happens when the Word of God is shared, people can see what kind of soil they are.

““Now the parable is this: The seed is the word of God. Those by the wayside are the ones who hear; then the devil comes and takes away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved. But the ones on the rock are those who, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, who believe for a while and in time of temptation fall away. Now the ones that fell among thorns are those who, when they have heard, go out and are choked with cares, riches, and pleasures of life, and bring no fruit to maturity. But the ones that fell on the good ground are those who, having heard the word with a noble and good heart, keep it and bear fruit with patience.”
‭‭Luke‬ ‭8:11-15‬ ‭NKJV‬‬

 

[F1fan]

Notice my testimony wasn’t a ritual, self induced emotional experience, God showed up and delivered me. I know the real from the fake, I can spot a spiritual fraud.

Great. Explain your intellectual method that allowed you to discern the authenticity of God, and that it wasn't a fraud you imposed on yourself through the religious influence in your life.

We non-theists really want to learn about this objective method you used, so explain it to us, and how we can perform this method ourselves to encourage this God to show up for us.

 

[ElishaElijah]

Great. Explain your intellectual method that allowed you to discern the authenticity of God, and that it wasn't a fraud you imposed on yourself through the religious influence in your life.

We non-theists really want to learn about this objective method you used, so explain it to us, and how we can perform this method ourselves to encourage this God to show up for us.

This story reminds me of our conversation:

“Now as Jesus passed by, He saw a man who was blind from birth. And His disciples asked Him, saying, “Rabbi, who sinned, this man or his parents, that he was born blind?” Jesus answered, “Neither this man nor his parents sinned, but that the works of God should be revealed in him. I must work the works of Him who sent Me while it is day; the night is coming when no one can work. As long as I am in the world, I am the light of the world.” When He had said these things, He spat on the ground and made clay with the saliva; and He anointed the eyes of the blind man with the clay. And He said to him, “Go, wash in the pool of Siloam” (which is translated, Sent). So he went and washed, and came back seeing. Therefore the neighbors and those who previously had seen that he was blind said, “Is not this he who sat and begged?” Some said, “This is he.” Others said, “He is like him.” He said, “I am he.” Therefore they said to him, “How were your eyes opened?” He answered and said, “A Man called Jesus made clay and anointed my eyes and said to me, ‘Go to the pool of Siloam and wash.’ So I went and washed, and I received sight.” Then they said to him, “Where is He?” He said, “I do not know.” They brought him who formerly was blind to the Pharisees. Now it was a Sabbath when Jesus made the clay and opened his eyes. Then the Pharisees also asked him again how he had received his sight. He said to them, “He put clay on my eyes, and I washed, and I see.” Therefore some of the Pharisees said, “This Man is not from God, because He does not keep the Sabbath.” Others said, “How can a man who is a sinner do such signs?” And there was a division among them. They said to the blind man again, “What do you say about Him because He opened your eyes?” He said, “He is a prophet.” But the Jews did not believe concerning him, that he had been blind and received his sight, until they called the parents of him who had received his sight. And they asked them, saying, “Is this your son, who you say was born blind? How then does he now see?” His parents answered them and said, “We know that this is our son, and that he was born blind; but by what means he now sees we do not know, or who opened his eyes we do not know. He is of age; ask him. He will speak for himself.” His parents said these things because they feared the Jews, for the Jews had agreed already that if anyone confessed that He was Christ, he would be put out of the synagogue. Therefore his parents said, “He is of age; ask him.” So they again called the man who was blind, and said to him, “Give God the glory! We know that this Man is a sinner.” He answered and said, “Whether He is a sinner or not I do not know. One thing I know: that though I was blind, now I see.” Then they said to him again, “What did He do to you? How did He open your eyes?” He answered them, “I told you already, and you did not listen. Why do you want to hear it again? Do you also want to become His disciples?” Then they reviled him and said, “You are His disciple, but we are Moses’ disciples. We know that God spoke to Moses; as for this fellow, we do not know where He is from.” The man answered and said to them, “Why, this is a marvelous thing, that you do not know where He is from; yet He has opened my eyes! Now we know that God does not hear sinners; but if anyone is a worshiper of God and does His will, He hears him. Since the world began it has been unheard of that anyone opened the eyes of one who was born blind. If this Man were not from God, He could do nothing.” They answered and said to him, “You were completely born in sins, and are you teaching us?” And they cast him out. Jesus heard that they had cast him out; and when He had found him, He said to him, “Do you believe in the Son of God?” He answered and said, “Who is He, Lord, that I may believe in Him?” And Jesus said to him, “You have both seen Him and it is He who is talking with you.” Then he said, “Lord, I believe!” And he worshiped Him. And Jesus said, “For judgment I have come into this world, that those who do not see may see, and that those who see may be made blind.” Then some of the Pharisees who were with Him heard these words, and said to Him, “Are we blind also?” Jesus said to them, “If you were blind, you would have no sin; but now you say, ‘We see.’ Therefore your sin remains.”
‭‭John‬ ‭9:1-41‬ ‭NKJV‬‬

 

[F1fan]

This story reminds me of our conversation:

“Now as Jesus passed by, He saw a man who was blind from birth. And His disciples asked Him, saying, “Rabbi, who sinned, this man or his parents, that he was born blind?” Jesus answered, “Neither this man nor his parents sinned, but that the works of God should be revealed in him. I must work the works of Him who sent Me while it is day; the night is coming when no one can work. As long as I am in the world, I am the light of the world.” When He had said these things, He spat on the ground and made clay with the saliva; and He anointed the eyes of the blind man with the clay. And He said to him, “Go, wash in the pool of Siloam” (which is translated, Sent). So he went and washed, and came back seeing. Therefore the neighbors and those who previously had seen that he was blind said, “Is not this he who sat and begged?” Some said, “This is he.” Others said, “He is like him.” He said, “I am he.” Therefore they said to him, “How were your eyes opened?” He answered and said, “A Man called Jesus made clay and anointed my eyes and said to me, ‘Go to the pool of Siloam and wash.’ So I went and washed, and I received sight.” Then they said to him, “Where is He?” He said, “I do not know.” They brought him who formerly was blind to the Pharisees. Now it was a Sabbath when Jesus made the clay and opened his eyes. Then the Pharisees also asked him again how he had received his sight. He said to them, “He put clay on my eyes, and I washed, and I see.” Therefore some of the Pharisees said, “This Man is not from God, because He does not keep the Sabbath.” Others said, “How can a man who is a sinner do such signs?” And there was a division among them. They said to the blind man again, “What do you say about Him because He opened your eyes?” He said, “He is a prophet.” But the Jews did not believe concerning him, that he had been blind and received his sight, until they called the parents of him who had received his sight. And they asked them, saying, “Is this your son, who you say was born blind? How then does he now see?” His parents answered them and said, “We know that this is our son, and that he was born blind; but by what means he now sees we do not know, or who opened his eyes we do not know. He is of age; ask him. He will speak for himself.” His parents said these things because they feared the Jews, for the Jews had agreed already that if anyone confessed that He was Christ, he would be put out of the synagogue. Therefore his parents said, “He is of age; ask him.” So they again called the man who was blind, and said to him, “Give God the glory! We know that this Man is a sinner.” He answered and said, “Whether He is a sinner or not I do not know. One thing I know: that though I was blind, now I see.” Then they said to him again, “What did He do to you? How did He open your eyes?” He answered them, “I told you already, and you did not listen. Why do you want to hear it again? Do you also want to become His disciples?” Then they reviled him and said, “You are His disciple, but we are Moses’ disciples. We know that God spoke to Moses; as for this fellow, we do not know where He is from.” The man answered and said to them, “Why, this is a marvelous thing, that you do not know where He is from; yet He has opened my eyes! Now we know that God does not hear sinners; but if anyone is a worshiper of God and does His will, He hears him. Since the world began it has been unheard of that anyone opened the eyes of one who was born blind. If this Man were not from God, He could do nothing.” They answered and said to him, “You were completely born in sins, and are you teaching us?” And they cast him out. Jesus heard that they had cast him out; and when He had found him, He said to him, “Do you believe in the Son of God?” He answered and said, “Who is He, Lord, that I may believe in Him?” And Jesus said to him, “You have both seen Him and it is He who is talking with you.” Then he said, “Lord, I believe!” And he worshiped Him. And Jesus said, “For judgment I have come into this world, that those who do not see may see, and that those who see may be made blind.” Then some of the Pharisees who were with Him heard these words, and said to Him, “Are we blind also?” Jesus said to them, “If you were blind, you would have no sin; but now you say, ‘We see.’ Therefore your sin remains.”
‭‭John‬ ‭9:1-41‬ ‭NKJV‬‬

So you have no method?

 

[ElishaElijah]

So you have no method?

Same method most people use to determine what works or doesn’t work in life. When people find great things that work in life they tell other people so they can have that too.

 

[ElishaElijah]

@F1fan
I do find it interesting that the blind beggar had more insight than the so called experts and received his sight.
It’s like that today, many people are delivered, set free, changed and obtain eternal life while many others continue doubting, questioning and asking those people their method.
Do you do the same thing when someone tells you that there is a great sale going on at a store? If so you will miss out on a lot of deals instead of buying.

 

[loverofhumanity]

I see so many arguements here about a god existing or a god not existing, show me your evidence a god does exist and show me evidence a god doesn't exist, etc.

Its all pretty pointless being a god exists by having belief/faith or a god doesn't exist by not having belief/faith.

I myself do not know if a god or any god does exist. A god could have set everything into motion and has since let everything from the universe to life evolve or it all could have naturally happened. If you know which, show me undeniable evidence of it.

There is no evidence to show a god does or doesn't exist. If a god does exist that would be great but if a god doesn't exist, does it really matter.

Asking for evidence of a god existing or not existing is pretty ignorant being evidence for neither exists.

If you believe in a god thats great.
If you don't believe in a god thats great.
Both are personal choices and evidence isn't involved.

We are each our own self and have our own beliefs which is what keeps us from being like robots.

What is gained or lost from arguing about personal beliefs besides nothing?

In my opinion I see it as believers trying to get others to believe and critisize others for not believing(you are going to hell) and non-believers trying to criticize others for believing and argue(you are uneducated and don't understand science).

Thats my opinion and I could be wrong.

You speak truly. There is so much prejudice between people. I think it’s important to be accepting of all human beings as equals regardless of belief or no belief and we should not judge others. We should welcome all as equals and respect all.

 

[F1fan]

Same method most people use to determine what works or doesn’t work in life. When people find great things that work in life they tell other people so they can have that too.

Are you being deliberately vague? You said:

"God is spiritual and invisible to our natural senses, when I prayed to Him, He answered and delivered me from my addictions. This set me on a path of seeking the God who delivered me."

So you are claiming a God delivered you from your addictions and answered your prayer. How did you discern it was an actual God and not just you relying on your own wits and strength to overcome your addiction? It's more likely you did this than any sort of God existing and helping you do this. After all, look at all the kids dying from diseases that could be saved by being delivered by God. But God doesn't deliver, despite the prayers.

So given your inability to offer your method could it be you are just falling back on religious tradition and thought, and using it to help you stay on course?

 

[F1fan]

@F1fan
I do find it interesting that the blind beggar had more insight than the so called experts and received his sight.
It’s like that today, many people are delivered, set free, changed and obtain eternal life while many others continue doubting, questioning and asking those people their method.
Do you do the same thing when someone tells you that there is a great sale going on at a store? If so you will miss out on a lot of deals instead of buying.

Irrelevant to the debate about God.

What I do is not find myself being convinced by the distractions and vague comments by theists. If you were sure a God exists via some experience and means to that experience I would think you would have many details about how it happened. Instead you post rather unremarkable and general comments.

 

[rational experiences]

A humans review.

I am a human standing upon a planet.

Basic.

I live inside of a Multi varied reactive heavens. One mass but not just one body. By spirit gas determination. And not just one reaction either.

Answer I named God O the earth as science by human choice takes earths physical mass and changes it themselves. So they named science.

Science.

Out of space is huge. Has so many variations of effects sitting inside one body also as space.

Theist lying mind says space owns all varied energies. Yet they exist naturally and not as space.

So one God is only a human thesis for humans as I don't own any of it. I know I am not science a thesis or god theories as human science.

God O earth is reactive naturally. It can kill of everything living on it. That teaching humans taught humans.

God is not controlled is reactive and powerful naturally.

The basic common sense answer.

So realists as humans say I live with God. As a teaching.

Destroyers who gave their title a satanist said they were against God it's destroyer.

By sun theories nuclear.

We know they lie..
Scientists theists.

The sun said our holy brother burns consumes it's own body. Is dangerous. Not only does it self consume it leaves a satan body after light is removed.

Removal of energy mass in lighted states leaves a Remainder. As space is holy cold and highest cold.

So Satan cools disintegrates falls into the deep pit. 1000 years he says it takes to fall.

He also said I falsely believed I was Satan in the clouds as man's image.

A very big difference between the sun's Satan review to earths cloud Satan review. Just human thought.

Yet men proved they lied.

Holy Satan a man is just a human said theists is a liar. Just clouds.

We live with God. We are just humans.

We never owned a human science theory how an instant self recognised self present human by human thought only human observed existed.

As a human says my thought observation scientific says instant human.

No other thought allowed. As the thought said is what I observed is.

Consciousness is the human God topic. Natural human versus satanic human thinker theisms.

Our brother said an asteroid is a cold sun body. Sun mass. So if it gets set alight by passing through earths heated irradiating earth paths hot space it ignites.

His man's theist known theory cold Satan star hot space converting Satan mass as a star.

How does he know? Man being fallout space irradiated said earths space is hot. Versus space being naturally cold.

His theory directly earth advised actually. By thinking.

The asteroid then becomes a mini sun projectile. That can burn everyone to death or atmospheric cool into an instant explosion.

Sun theories Satan falling star.

He knew.

Another Satan return statement by falling star. The asteroid.

So he proved he knew and identified variable Satan states. Also not just one of.

He knew as about 1000 years ago the Satan star hit earth. Shroud evidence real. Life sacrificed again.

The sun Satan never hit us the star Satan did.

Why my vision dinosaur attack stated was when first dinosaurs were made extinct. As the vision showed a dinosaur I never saw before. I had to research.

In the vision the advice that told me as a messenger cooling of causes said it was the cause effect of old man's pyramid science.

As I did wonder if men using science had lived with the dinosaurs....as it clearly stated man brothers science fault. Pyramid caused.

So when the Baha'i review was gained the same advice human caused would be in the visionary message. New message about old science of man's.

Science still owned why God earth was cosmic attacked as they believed in converting god by sun themes.

The asteroid was the Satan body itself.

And the asteroid is already a cosmic body cold mass close to earth God. Coldest sun mass. The status nuclear conver Sion is not God.

Unlike earth the sun cools it mass burnt out in space by cold pressures direct.

Their science cooled nuclear waste is using water. Is another form of invented Satan body.

So when science first is only a cosmic theme the thesis is only direct to cosmic.

Space.

Earth owns a heavens is not cosmic.

Why Satanists tried to remove our God heavens back to his thesis nothing first.

Immaculate came from an evil god first. Hot volcanic gases. Known advice.

So God teachings said the holy heavens only owned the holy sacrifice in cosmic space. Immaculate burning into light voiding. Mother womb no other status allowed holy.

As gods history was evil burning.

Science never owned direct energy regarding God. The energy theory was how to attack mass first to equals the theory gain of direct energy.

Science never owned light in the voiding vacuum position.

God the earth never was direct energy.

Why Einstein's recorded memory I saw told me he was wrong and sorry. Only realised in the moment when you die.

Man never owned the light.

We live in holy baptism water and trees nature oxygenation. Holy water was our life status.

The phi fallout exists cooled and stopped as the activated science time shifting of gods mass into God earth sin holes.

Phi used to convert ground gods mass only by man. The theist of Phi.

The ancient memory said man theoried about Phi attacking God twice. As advised.

Ice the saviour stopped the Phi attack.

As the first pyramid science was not a resourcing science it was a time shifting machine. As origin.

Man's second science after ice age was resourcing.

Origin science had opened massive sin holes in gods body returning it to the state nothing by inventive first theorising.

Copying means copying by the thesis nothing first.

The state to time shift by nuclear is back to cosmic nothing. Why science today aware said nothing to time shift is hot space radiation.

As science is man's wisdom.

Why anyone fourth UFO is attacked status as per movie series I watched last night hears humans screaming..... Because recorded human origin life was destroyed by human Satanists.

The theist of science.

Why no human is science.

As men were heavenly voiced recorded.... atmospheric heating is now destroying voice recordings of men who once lived as studied by modernn science.

Is your scientific evidence today yes you did destroy all life before.

As seemingly you don't believe yourselves that it occurred. So you had to study it again by human science to prove you had by science....machines.

The bible statement no man is God. Taken as a world toured preaching to gain human support was factually ignored and failed.

Only after Rome was hit by satanic returned burning comets asteroid in the era Nero.

Is historic. Never give earth God a name ever again. Scientific thesis. Or else human DNA genesis gets removed out of gods supported life.

To hear a man humans record in visions means you are already gone. Why I knew you had to be convinced that human science is fake and self destructive.

And sciences origin had destroyed first human life on earth your fact.

 

[ElishaElijah]

Irrelevant to the debate about God.

What I do is not find myself being convinced by the distractions and vague comments by theists. If you were sure a God exists via some experience and means to that experience I would think you would have many details about how it happened. Instead you post rather unremarkable and general comments.

I already detailed my conversion so not sure what you’re talking about, seems you may be going for some kind of record of posts or something. If I delivered myself by some kind of strength or positive thinking method then I would gladly write a book and profit from it but seen as God delivered me and I’ve been drug and alcohol free for 34 years now, I will give credit where credit is due. Thank-you Jesus! You’re the greatest!

 

[rational experiences]

Father said. When men in science change God earths body by nuclear choice. Change is to radiate irradiated fallout heavens gas of man's life. The saviour gets sacrificed again.

Ice.

Ice in life stable DNA is win to sum balances sea son returns amassed ice end of each year reborn balancing nature.

Natural sacrifice winters ice then melts.

Ice existence however should not melt. As it involves stability by pressures.

It does however melt.

We are conscious living by health a gain or loss of health in water mass atmosphere. Water mass gets returned.

Told in memory human once we never ate food. Not sacrificed then. Microbes in water mass supplemented non food consumption. Animals not fierce.

Ice melts. More water mass returns in heavens. Consciousness science just human says I am safe.

Animals behaviours witnessed changed. Animals become friends and lay with their food animal.

God the earth God the heavens however becomes more destructive by pressure changes. Ice presence.

Huge atmospheric reactions earth shifting disasters.

God needs to be holy first our human teaching. God needs to remain present our teaching. Advised by all human chosen unholy science attacks.

Why humans believe in a holy God as a human teaching.

So we are life lost by other causes.

Why our brother just a human tells lies as a scientist.

 

[We Never Know]

Before even asking the question of existence, the first step is to define what you mean by the term 'god'.

Does it mean a creator of the universe?

Does it mean an all powerful being?

Does it mean a morality giver?

Does it imply a supernatural?

Could it just be a super powerful, but ordinary life form?

Is it only/primarily interested in this particular planet and life on it?

Could it simply be 'the universe'? Or 'the laws of physics'?

Does it have a gender?

And a long list of other things people have identified as 'god-like' properties.

Only after it is clarified exactly what we are talking about is the question of existence even meaningful.

So, if you define 'god' to be 'the universe', then I believe 'god' exists. If you define 'god' to be 'the intelligent creator of the universe', then I do not.

I don't know what a god is or would be, therefore I can't claim a god does or doesn't exist.

 

[Polymath257]

I don't know what a god is or would be, therefore I can't claim a god does or doesn't exist.

But it goes farther than that. If you don't know what it would mean to say something is a god or not, then the whole question of existence is literally *meaningless*. No meaning was given to the question at all.

If I asked you if believe grlorphfuls exist, and you ask 'what is a glorphful' and I say 'I have no idea', what would you say next?

 

[We Never Know]

But it goes farther than that. If you don't know what it would mean to say something is a god or not, then the whole question of existence is literally *meaningless*. No meaning was given to the question at all.

If I asked you if believe grlorphfuls exist, and you ask 'what is a glorphful' and I say 'I have no idea', what would you say next?

The meaning of a god varies among people.
I have no meaning while others will/do.
So I don't see it as an empty question being its applies to different and all readers/people.
If I were to say a god is/had to be only a certain thing, then it would be meaningless in my opinion.

 

[rational experiences]

You exist first to be a theist.

As you have to tell stories. About everything.

Everything was titled gods owned.

As a thinker if you had to preach gods owned is not your owned how is that teaching not correct?

You would teach it because life whole first origin healthy got attacked sacrificed.

So you would look at the human brother. Do an assessment on his thoughts. Name him a satanist against God. As natural life was supported by everything before you.

See any problem today via a look back at man in the past. His past. His controls his choices. When God gave everything freely.

Notice only the machine man built was controlled actually.

Are you doing a human man's conscious self assessment? Today...now as life sacrificed dies unnaturally in front of your sight. Seeing?

The see. To think.

Seeing...it is happening.

No.

You are looking back at his machines and man's science thesis.

If you looked back at man living naturally with everything he needed supplied. Compare that man to the greedy I own everything man today...
You family my slave worked starved and I chose to torment torture you.

I burnt the ground so no food was left.

I said I owned food you weren't allowed to have it. Origin reason to say the rich owned food... as food got scarce when he burnt the ground.

Later just evil minded he delighted in humans starving as he is an evil minded irradiated man liar.

The looking back conscious spiritual man today knowing why once he was evil minded.

To day you ask what type of human brother am I.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Exist, how? God clearly exists as an idea, and as an ideal. And that ideal clearly has a very real and physical presence in the world through the actions of those who embody it. But does God exist as a physical phenomenon apart from the mind of humans? That depends on how we are defining God, and how we are defining the boundaries of existence. Which drives us into the realm of theology, and philosophy. Which are realms of thought that a lot of people are not well versed in. Yet opinions abound.

People talk about things "existing as an idea," but the idea is just a model of the thing and not the thing itself. An idea - or ideal - of God is not actually God.

Merely thinking about God does not mean that God "exists."

 

[PureX]

People talk about things "existing as an idea," but the idea is just a model of the thing and not the thing itself. An idea - or ideal - of God is not actually God.

Or it actually IS God. As it is how God is being actualized in the world. Your insistence that physicality defines existence is no more or less an 'ideal' than God is.

Merely thinking about God does not mean that God "exists."

Of course it does. It means God exists as an idea. Ideas exist. To claim that they don't is foolish. Ideas control human behavior even more than physicality does.

 

[Sheldon]

If I asked you if believe grlorphfuls exist, and you ask 'what is a glorphful' and I say 'I have no idea', what would you say next?

Ah now, I've had personal experience of one.

It was a few moments ago when I read it in your post.

Now call me insane, but I like to think it created everything, and loves us all, not sure why. However you can't "prove" I'm wrong so I will be applying for tax exempt status, you may be contacted as witnesses.

 

[Sheldon]

You exist first to be a theist.

As you have to tell stories. About everything.

Everything was titled gods owned.

As a thinker if you had to preach gods owned is not your owned how is that teaching not correct?

You would teach it because life whole first origin healthy got attacked sacrificed.

So you would look at the human brother. Do an assessment on his thoughts. Name him a satanist against God. As natural life was supported by everything before you.

See any problem today via a look back at man in the past. His past. His controls his choices. When God gave everything freely.

Notice only the machine man built was controlled actually.

Are you doing a human man's conscious self assessment? Today...now as life sacrificed dies unnaturally in front of your sight. Seeing?

The see. To think.

Seeing...it is happening.

No.

You are looking back at his machines and man's science thesis.

If you looked back at man living naturally with everything he needed supplied. Compare that man to the greedy I own everything man today...
You family my slave worked starved and I chose to torment torture you.

I burnt the ground so no food was left.

I said I owned food you weren't allowed to have it. Origin reason to say the rich owned food... as food got scarce when he burnt the ground.

Later just evil minded he delighted in humans starving as he is an evil minded irradiated man liar.

The looking back conscious spiritual man today knowing why once he was evil minded.

To day you ask what type of human brother am I.

No Offence, but was that translated into English using babel fish? I've seldom seen anything so consistently incomprehensible, and why do you start

redundant

new

paragraphs

all

the time?

Is it for comic effect?