mikkel_the_dane
My own religion
A lot, but not everything.
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Does a god exist?
- Thread starter We Never Know
- Start date
A lot, but not everything.
ElishaElijah
Return
God is spiritual and invisible to our natural senses, when I prayed to Him, He answered and delivered me from my addictions. This set me on a path of seeking the God who delivered me.
This path led to many different spiritual paths, they left me saying there has to be more to God than just that experience. After a year I met a Pastor who shared the Gospel with me, when I repented and believed/trusted that Jesus Christ died for my sin, was buried and rose the third day. Made a Covenant with God. He did something inside of me and changed me, I felt this joy and freedom I had never experienced before and thought this is what has been missing! Later on I understood that what happened was I was born again and filled with the Holy Spirit. I understood the Bible and had a thirst for more, so much more since then but I know and am positive that God is real, faithful and am confident that I will see Him and be with Him forever.
I spent a long time trying to figure out what went wrong in my life to bring me to utter failure and had no answers or power to change for 5 years before that trying. So when He showed up and changed me and continues to change me I know. I’ve committed to live out God’s Word in my life and He is faithful to His Word. My life makes sense now and I know why I’m here and where I’m going.
Sheldon
Veteran Member
Exactly, I was asked as an atheist by the thread OP, to demsonrate evidence for the non-existence of a deity. Firstly I disbelieve in any deity or deities, but that is not a knowledge claim they don't exist. However hypothetically if something doesn't exist, why would one assume this non-existence left any evidence?
What is the evidence for the non-existence of invisible mermaids? The questions make no sense.
Yes - there is no objective evidence. I assume you were not referring to subjective experience.
Scoop
Member
Interesting. You seem respectful and comfortable in your beliefs, so I want to pick your brain about this a little bit. Do you think Hell exists? Why does it exist? Does anyone go there? Why do they go there? What is Hell like? Do you think that anyone could possibly deserve such a fate? If so, why?The main thing gained is clarity on beliefs and practice at being succinct. I like talking to non-believers for every single time (including on this forum) it reveals to me gaps in my knowledge (and about 1/5th of the time people lovingly give me a booklist or research times to help fill me in, God bless them), or helps me learn how to make and present a point better through trial-and-error.
No one should be saying anyone is going to Hell over anything (even if it is literally Hitler), they don't know that.
That's all my opinion also though and I could be wrong.
firedragon
Veteran Member
From a historical perspective, the belief in God has always been evidence based.
All my opinions of course: Hell (that is the state at minimum, of being eternally separated from the indwelling life of God in a soul capable of receiving it) exists. It exists because God gave all beings capable of understanding Himself the ability to choose Him as they should (that is as He states) or to choose Him as they shouldn't (as He did not state to do). At minimum evil pure spirits (demons) go there. They (these pure spirits) go there because of their nature, they made a choice to reject God while fully and entirely understanding the consequences, and they can not change their will. If any human persons go to Hell (and I do not know if this happens, Universalism has some extremely powerful arguments in favor of it) it would be for a similar reason, at death (or the transition of the soul from being subject to the body to being dominant over it) our wills are locked and we no longer receive through the senses, so if they have chosen God above themselves or themselves above God this decision is forever (hence Hell is in every case also self-condemnation). Hell is lacking the chief good of existing for the kinds of beings we are, knowing it, and willing to be separated from it, in some horrible state which is contrary to reason. That is what it is like. Beings which willfully choose this do deserve it, because of that very fact, it is malice which they perpetually will.
There are many unproven (to me at least, for currently it is beyond my knowledge) assumptions in the doctrine of Hell here present as I just presented it. I need to study more to understand it, for it is quite possible (as many Universalists would claim for example, and I say again, their arguments are mighty and may very well convert me to their position as they have great explanations and most Hell-believers just evade their points and attack strawmen) all of this is wrong.
Chief among the things which I am building up to in knowledge to try to understand whether or not they are true is this:
- Whether it is even possible for a being who is by nature inherently directed at God to persist in willing to be separated from God.
- Whether or not God made humans incapable of repenting after death (for a whole valid tradition of the Church says "no He didn't").
- Whether or not it is even possible for a human being, sense-bound and ignorant as we are, to make a choice out of pure malice and will Hell for ourselves eternally (note: we can not even comprehend what eternity is fully, I think).
- Whether or not this idea is even justified based on what Scripture actually says, especially in the New Testament (there are many debates about the meaning of "aeon/age" and if an age can be eternal, what Gehenna even is, whether or not St. Paul himself was a Universalist considering that he made many statements which outright sound like Universalism at face value, including "in Adam all died but in Christ ALL live").
- Whether or not a punishment from God that does not ameliorate is even possible.
- Even if it is possible is there good reason to think it isn't actual.
These questions require much study and great minds (such as David Bentley Hart in "That All Shall Be Saved") have weighed in on the issue on both sides, defending it or attacking the concept. Ultimately some version of Universalism is possible even in my Church so there is no reason for me not to look into it. But this is the state of my knowledge as of writing this.
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Segev Moran
Well-Known Member
There is no direct evidence to god same as there is no direct evidence for many things.
We cannot directly (including technology) see or feel gravity. What we measure is its affect on the things we can directly see or feel.
Same goes for many things in the scientific world.
God, can only be proven this way.
In my opinion, the more science advances, the more probable the idea of god.
Its not pointless.
The day this discussion will end, it means we are either is an amazing place or the worst place.
In order for making sure we are in an amazing one, the debate needs to be much more serious and educated for both sides.
As any other person.
Correct.
The only question is, what you call natural.
The more technological we become, natural seems more and more weird.
I guess at the end of it, god is a natural thing, but we are not yet able to (scientifically) understand that.
There is no "which". There is only one possibility.
People call parts of it in ways they understand or relate to. Ancient people gave animals and stars mythical powers, not because they were idiots, because they lacked the vocabulary to describe it.
Atoms, were once thought to be particles in basic shapes. Its not an idiotic idea, rather a brilliant one that was part of humans attempts to describe what they don't yet understand.
There is no evidence, but a trend of evidence.
Just follow the latest scientific discoveries.
That is not true.
before we discovered something, it would have been ignorant to talk about it?
If so, it makes everyone in our history ignorant.
Thanks
Thanks again
Agree to disagree
Agreed.
If argued in an educational and respecting way, wisdom. for both sides.
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In my opinion I see it as believers trying to get others to believe and critisize others for not believing(you are going to hell) and non-believers trying to criticize others for believing and argue(you are uneducated and don't understand science).
[/QUOTE]
Yep. That's the less useful of debates, but some are amazing and one can learn very much about the topic he argues about.
I Mostly agree.
But there are things in both "sides" miss that are vital for the human society to survive and evolve.
So no actual facts. Is it possible you just wanted a God to exist and you used your experience to justify what you wanted?
I see many people in trauma who don't have the drive or confidence to make the choices they need to make in life, so they adopt a framework where they get confidence and power from a God. They also have such low self-esteem that they won't make the right decisions for themselves because they aren't worth it, but if they are working for a God that they think values them, well, then they can do it for God. Of course the believer has to be CERTAIN this God exists, because once the illusion is compromised with doubt the self is back on its own authority, and low self-worth.
This is why 12-step programs fail. The people are desperate and seeking any sort of path to making better decisions, but once the God is no more valued than the self, then the program fails. The ability for a person to be totally absorbed in belief, and distracted from the self's actually mental thoughts, can help them follow the program. But are they being authentic, or just zombies with massive pretense?
Why do you think you need to seek at all?
Perhaps your difficulty is realizing the illusion of it all.
It astounds me that theists challenge non-theists with questions that are logical fallacies. From post 1 it is flawed and a catastrophe.
This post asks a question that assumes atheists are wrong. But it ignores that theists haven't demonstrated their position true, or even plausible. It's not like they are claiming they ate a ham sandwich for lunch, at least that is plausible. Gods? How are any gods consistent with what we know of reality?
ElishaElijah
Return
I shared the actual facts as witnessed by myself, all those in the treatment center, my family and the other addicts I went back and witnessed to after God delivered me.
What were you expecting, a scientific peer reviewed paper on my conversion?
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I have no doubt you cited facts of your experience. I'm questioning whether what you think you experienced is factual and true.
People on an acid trip may have experiences flying. Were they actually flying? No.
ElishaElijah
Return
Of course it’s true, I thought you were legit interested, sorry my bad.
rational experiences
Veteran Member
Is a God for human awareness real?
When facts state..
A human only ever came from sperm ovary. Human sex. No human today can ever be first human.
We live conceived living inside earth heavens.
Our human teaching. Human. Self awareness.
We teach O earth is first an entity.
O one.
Earth O the entity formed held its own heavens
We live exist inside the heavens always.
The human theist begins theorising cosmic bodies. Are who is wrong.
Life is only a human inside God O one earths heavens. Taught against human science theists.
Rationally.
So does a human own a God?
Yes. By stated conditions human taught.
Now if the heavens owns a state records transmits sounds. Voice. Any type of image of anybody. Mass. Changing mass. Light. Dark. Alive. Deceased bodies all can be imaged recorded we were notified of the state.
Who does any human child as a human depend on?
Their father and mother.
Who owns human life?
Our first father and first mother.
Are they both deceased?
Yes.
Were they far more spiritual and healthy than anyone today?
Yes.
Human reasoned.
Science nuclear fallout history. Temple pyramid built human science mutated in Moses teaching human life.
Where is memory of first humans?
Recorded consciously aware visually and by voice. In our heavens.
Their advice spiritual as compared to the returned healing chemically changed heavy metal irradiated human life.
Holy human parents stated as a God memory by state recording told us.
Their lives guide us from inherited human suffering we gave ourselves.
Is a learnt aware human experienced teaching.
When facts state..
A human only ever came from sperm ovary. Human sex. No human today can ever be first human.
We live conceived living inside earth heavens.
Our human teaching. Human. Self awareness.
We teach O earth is first an entity.
O one.
Earth O the entity formed held its own heavens
We live exist inside the heavens always.
The human theist begins theorising cosmic bodies. Are who is wrong.
Life is only a human inside God O one earths heavens. Taught against human science theists.
Rationally.
So does a human own a God?
Yes. By stated conditions human taught.
Now if the heavens owns a state records transmits sounds. Voice. Any type of image of anybody. Mass. Changing mass. Light. Dark. Alive. Deceased bodies all can be imaged recorded we were notified of the state.
Who does any human child as a human depend on?
Their father and mother.
Who owns human life?
Our first father and first mother.
Are they both deceased?
Yes.
Were they far more spiritual and healthy than anyone today?
Yes.
Human reasoned.
Science nuclear fallout history. Temple pyramid built human science mutated in Moses teaching human life.
Where is memory of first humans?
Recorded consciously aware visually and by voice. In our heavens.
Their advice spiritual as compared to the returned healing chemically changed heavy metal irradiated human life.
Holy human parents stated as a God memory by state recording told us.
Their lives guide us from inherited human suffering we gave ourselves.
Is a learnt aware human experienced teaching.
stvdv
Veteran Member: I Share (not Debate) my POV
No arguing that
Only if you know it's sensible to claim. Even then, why would I claim?
The Truth
true
very important
Just egos "working out"
You are right,
We observe caused causes in the world.
The desk lamp causes the room to be illuminated. But the bulb is caused to glow by the electricity.
If the electricity caused itself then it would have to have pre-existed itself which is absurd.
Therefore, the electricity was caused by something else.
There couldn't be an infinite chain of causes to explain the electricity because if there were no first cause there would be no subsequent effects.
By elimination the only option left to explain what we observe is a first uncaused cause.
Could we call this first cause God?
rational experiences
Veteran Member
If a hu man scientist talks about electricity and biology a human does not plug into a light socket.
Humans changed x two natural gods body forms both burnt but sealed by water. Water is our holy life spirit continuance is now attacked further burnt whilst you obtain electricity.
Pretty basic advice. Where electricity came from. Destruction of mass.
So suppose a volcano released its gases smoking volume into the space vacuum. First the vacuum would get rid of the volume leaving just spirit gas.
Of gods first spirit in earth theism. Gods owned...no electricity.
If you ask humans irradiated did your brain body chemistry alter. Holy father holy mother first life records would quote yes.
You bodily life not like we had.
So if an input into bio life changed. You already knew it had in science biology genesis. You said the effect existed would not change til 2012 as a teaching why.
Hence any bio themed new study would not own a correct medical reasoning. As medical is reasoned to ascertain why a body is not correctly functioning.
A healthy human hence does not need a satanic occult theists appraisal living healthily surviving. As sacrificed but living on is the teaching.
As an idea maybe I can get bio electricity. Being how you think.
Compare a human chemical change to a socket you plug a machine into to function we get super fried was the conscious human answer.
When you decide to reason comparisons you don't listen to the conscious answer. Our human warning about theists.
Humans changed x two natural gods body forms both burnt but sealed by water. Water is our holy life spirit continuance is now attacked further burnt whilst you obtain electricity.
Pretty basic advice. Where electricity came from. Destruction of mass.
So suppose a volcano released its gases smoking volume into the space vacuum. First the vacuum would get rid of the volume leaving just spirit gas.
Of gods first spirit in earth theism. Gods owned...no electricity.
If you ask humans irradiated did your brain body chemistry alter. Holy father holy mother first life records would quote yes.
You bodily life not like we had.
So if an input into bio life changed. You already knew it had in science biology genesis. You said the effect existed would not change til 2012 as a teaching why.
Hence any bio themed new study would not own a correct medical reasoning. As medical is reasoned to ascertain why a body is not correctly functioning.
A healthy human hence does not need a satanic occult theists appraisal living healthily surviving. As sacrificed but living on is the teaching.
As an idea maybe I can get bio electricity. Being how you think.
Compare a human chemical change to a socket you plug a machine into to function we get super fried was the conscious human answer.
When you decide to reason comparisons you don't listen to the conscious answer. Our human warning about theists.
Like lightening?
Nature. Humans were just able to create and manage electricity.
Who says?
If energy, or stuff, can't be eternal, then how can anything be eternal? Where do the first causes come from since you declare there can't be an infinite chain of causes.
What caused a change in the state of the first cause (the decision to create, to cause) that led to the next step in that it created something? So there had to be a cause of the first cause for it to decide to act.
Or Fred. Morton. Bob.
Of course your claims above are based on assuming there can't be an infinite chain of causes. Prove it.
The testimony of experiences by theists are always legit, right? There is a self-induced emotional experience is doing ritual, doing certain acts, active prayer and belief, etc. Some theists feel good in their experiences of doing charity work, as do atheists. All these emotions and feelings are legit.Of course it’s true, I thought you were legit interested, sorry my bad.
Do these emotions and experiences suggest the religious beliefs of theists are true objectively? No.