Do you want Real Truth or convenient Truth?

[cataway]

some have the idea that all roads lead to God.'' but whereas narrow is the gate and cramped the road leading

Well, to you that is true. To some of us, it is different, but then again, you hold the Real Truth, I don't. So what is next?

some think that all roads lead to God.
however .''narrow is the gate and cramped the road leading off into life, and few are finding it.''

 

[stvdv]

That Xmas I confided in a close friend about all this. He contacted the next spring because his mother-in-law had been diagnosed with a brain tumour and he wondered if a visit to see this healer might comfort her a bit. She went to this healer. A few months later I asked my friend about his mother-in-law's brain tumour and he replied, 'Oh that.....' that it had just gone away.... or something.

Unbelievable, 1 more blessing. I guess you must be smiling too when others declare you crazy when you tell it. As you have plenty of proof now.

I'm not quite so quick to wave the 'idiot' flag at anybody these days.

That is another good lesson I learned from it.
Now I know that "magic healing" is very real, and much better than "hospital healing" (in my case)
I am not surprised if others share their experiences, about "magical cures". I know it can be true
I became less skeptical.

 

[mikkel_the_dane]

Would you say that it's idiotic (in reference to the "ki striking martial art")? I would say it is since it obviously doesn't work and can't even demonstrate that it could potentially work.



I did. I demonstrated how the Reiki master and the Ki striking grandmaster were both full of crap and deeply wrong. Reiki cannot heal you and ki striking cannot harm anybody. At best the former operates like a placebo and the other can make for some jump scare, but they cannot produce the effect they claim it would, yet they kept holding on to such practice. This is pretty much the definition of idiocy. If that doesn't prove someone is being an idiot in that specific circumstances than I don't think anbody qualifies for it.

(the common definition of idiocy being that which is showing a great lack of intelligence and common sense)

I personnaly believe, and for that I don't have solid evidence, that these two guru were perfectly cognisant of the fact their beliefs didn't and couldn't produce the effect they were claiming they could (AKA they were frauds). They were lying and manipulating credulous, fragile or otherwise ignorant, to gain the admiration of people and money (both were charging students). Both of these men also discouraged critical inquiries on their beliefs or tests. It's possible they were themselves manipulated by other guru before or were delusionnal (AKA they were not frauds). But, based on the fact these people seemed otherwise perfectly sane and well adjusted and that they had crafted strategies to prevent critical analysis of their beliefs by their students, this seems to me like the behavior of a fraud more than a manipulated victim or a delusionnal person.

So you have found apparent frauds within religion/spirituality. What is next, all forms of religion/spirituality is the same? Or something else?

 

[mikkel_the_dane]

some have the idea that all roads lead to God.'' but whereas narrow is the gate and cramped the road leading

some think that all roads lead to God.
however .''narrow is the gate and cramped the road leading off into life, and few are finding it.''

That is your belief. I believe in a different God.

 

[cataway]

That is your belief. I believe in a different God.

there are many gods . who is your god , what is his name ?

 

[epronovost]

So you have found apparent frauds within religion/spirituality. What is next, all forms of religion/spirituality is the same? Or something else?

No not all religion and not all guru are the same. Some wiseman are indeed wise. There are signs to what I would call "dangerous or fraudulant beliefs". I think pretty much everybody agrees that amongst all the prophets, wiseman and scholars or the world and in history there are, were and will be frauds, manipulators and con artists. I call these signs "red flags". Note a guru "waving" one or several of those red flags isn't a garanty that the guru in question is a fraud, but the more they have, the more likely they are to be frauds (or delusionnal or manipulated themselves) and thus not wise.

 

[sojourner]

* What is the Real Truth?
* How do we know if something is the real truth?
* Do you have the guts to reject verses from your Master/Scriptures if they feels wrong?
* Can we rely on our Conscience to know if something is true, and is Conscience sufficient to know The Truth?

Some Truth can be easily proven by Science. When it comes to Spirituality, Science is not always the way to find the answers.
So how do we know if something is true or what is "The Truth"

*) My Master has told us, that we should even reject His statements if they do not correspond to our Conscience. Of course we have to stay vigilent and be willing to accept them again afterwards, IF it turns out that our conscience was wrong, when we rejected them.

*) To reject verses that feel wrong to you, is also advised by the Yoga Vasistha, an Indian Scripture, which I like, because of this honesty (to value our Conscience)

Please feel free to share your views on this or related things. Do you dare to reject verses from your Scripture or Master (Jesus, Boeddha, Shiva, Allah, God....) if they feel bad? Do you rather play safe and skip those? Or do you dare to challenge God and Scriptures, or are you scared to challenge them. Do you fear to be thrown in Hell when rejecting 1 or more verses from your Scripture(s)?

Your question presupposes that all truth is contained in religious text. I don’t believe that’s the case. Therefore, I have no problem seeing the texts for what they are in my religion: the collected writings of the community as regards God and our relationship with God. I also have no problem in dismissing any given point of view that seems irrelevant to the present context.

“Real” truth? What is that? If it’s not real, it’s fake. how can you have “fake truth?” It’s an oxymoron. Absolute truth? I don’t believe there’s any such thing. Truth always depends on our point of view. For me, truth is relative. When God speaks (and I believe that has happened many times to me), God is compelling. I’m often “at odds” with God, but when God speaks, I immediately feel the truth of what is being said — like it or not. I’ve never found a reason to dismiss what God says.

 

[sojourner]

Judge Randolph: You don't have to answer that question!

Jessup: I'll answer the question. You want answers?

Kaffee: I think I'm entitled to it!

Jessup: You want answers?!

Kaffee: I want the truth!!

Jessup: You can't handle the truth!

Haha

Sooo... the Real Truth is that God did order the Code Red?

 

[sojourner]

Indeed, if you strongly believe in complete idiocy that makes you an idiot in that specific circumstances. If you believe someone has magical power to cure people by the power of touch and faith, you are an idiot. If you think you can knock out someone in fight by shouting at them and without touching them, you are an idiot. The only way people fall for those things is because they are taken by those excellent liars (who don't always know they are liars) at a moment of vulnerability, with the help of peer pressure and are kept in the dark by their guru who will discourage all form of skeptical inquiries. Some people are devious enough to make a fool out of others around them. That's what those guru did.

While I tend to agree with you, I do assert that spiritual healing is effective. I’ve been witness to it many times. Is it “miraculous?” No. It is “magic?” I don’t think so. I’ve seen Reiki both work and not work. I’ve also seen distance healing work quite effectively. I don’t pretend to know what the “engine” is — probably has a lot to do with relaxation, focus, and intent, on the part of both healer and client.

 

[epronovost]

While I tend to agree with you, I do assert that spiritual healing is effective. I’ve been witness to it many times. Is it “miraculous?” No. It is “magic?” I don’t think so. I’ve seen Reiki both work and not work. I’ve also seen distance healing work quite effectively. I don’t pretend to know what the “engine” is — probably has a lot to do with relaxation, focus, and intent, on the part of both healer and client.

What worked is called the placebo effect, a well known and understood process in medecine. In that Reki or long distance healing works no differently than basically anything else as a placebo since anything and everything can theoretically be a placebo or its opposite a nocebo. Reiki's rate of success is pretty much the same than a placebo, thus it's a placebo.

 

[oldbadger]

So, really good to hear you finally got rid of "dreadful knee problems". I know knee pain can be painful. I am lucky, if I have it, and don't move there is no pain, but the slightest movement hurts. So I am so grateful, that now already ca. 26 years Sai Baba has been taken my knee pain karma.

I had knee problems when I was ca. 20 years (36 years ago). I started a diet, and it disappeared. When I was in Ashram with Sai Baba, I did a Yoga class, and suddenly something in my knee broke. Horrible pain, could not walk. After 1 month I said to Sai Baba "I am in your Ashram, you promise to take care of us, while here. So please help me, I don't go to doctors". Pain was gone. But sometimes (once a year, it's back suddenly; luckily only 1 day). Like a reminder of God's Grace, that is how I see it. I remember that Sai Baba and Ramana Maharishi both have said "I take care of your karma, until you can take care of it yourself". So, I am even happy, that it is not cured permanently, because now I am reminded every once in a while, that Grace does exist. Otherwise I might take it for granted, or just forget it most of the time.

I was delighted to read both your posts, above.
I just keep an open mind if I can.

I've been such an idiot in my life, on occasions, that I don't like to accuse anybody else of that now. Anyway, an idiot is just a disabled person, medically speaking.

 

[epronovost]

Anyway, an idiot is just a disabled person, medically speaking.

Not any longer the medical vocabulary has changed, and probably will continue do so, to avoid this sort of problem.

 

[stvdv]

(the common definition of idiocy being that which is showing a great lack of intelligence and common sense)

Having a proper definition is good (2 and 5, I find these 2 not correct).

Spoiler: Definition of idiocy

1: something notably stupid or foolish
2dated, now offensive : extreme intellectual disability

3: extreme stupidity
4: something that is extremely stupid or foolish : an idiotic action or statement

5: the condition of being very stupid or foolish
6: something very stupid or foolish

IMO it is idiotic to say to someone "you are an idiot" (stating an untrue claim, where it is just an opinion. And it is against RF Rules)
Furthermore it is harmful to say to someone "you are an idiot". At least be specific+respectful and say "What you did is idiotic IMHO"
You could say "You are a human being, but you act like an idiot/devil IMHO". To that I would not object.
Some people have low IQ or Down disease. To those I would not say "you are an idiot", and not even "you act idiotic"
(This is just my feeling, and I was glad to see that in the definitions option 2 mentioned "dated, now offensive: exreme intellectual disability"

Would you say that it's idiotic (in reference to the "ki striking martial art")? I would say it is since it obviously doesn't work and can't even demonstrate that it could potentially work.

IF someone claims he has this ability, while he has not
THEN according to the above definitions I might think of it as "an idiotic claim"
But I would not say it. I would just tell him "Great, that you have this ability. Please show it to me. I have never seen it, I love to see it"
IF he does not have this ability, he will never tell me again he has this ability, unless he enjoys to act idiotic OR he has an illness

 

[sojourner]

What worked is called the placebo effect, a well known and understood process in medecine. In that Reki or long distance healing works no differently than basically anything else as a placebo since anything and everything can theoretically be a placebo or its opposite a nocebo.

No, this goes beyond “placebo effect,” although I get what you’re saying. Let me give you the best example I can.

When I was a kid, my family visited a family who lived on a farm (they were members of my dad’s church). My father, the farmer and I were standing out in the field near his tractor, which was running. As they were talking, Dad reached up, placed his hand on the muffler of the tractor to have something to lean on (completely forgetting that the tractor was running). He burned the palm of his hand on the stack. It was red, angry, and covered with blisters. He was in pain. The farmer, without saying a word, grabbed his hand, held it, and murmured something for a few seconds. When he released the hand, it was as if nothing had happened. There was no “placebo effect,” because 1) Dad didn’t believe in “faith healing,” 2) the farmer said nothing about effecting any kind of healing, and 3) there was no warning involved. He simply grabbed Dad’s hand all of a sudden.

What happened? How did the pain, the swelling, the blisters all vanish within a matter of seconds? When it was over, Dad asked him, “What did you do?” The farmer said, “I dunno.” My daddy could do it, and I can do it too. It just happens.” The farmer didn’t identify it as “faith healing.” I don’t know what happened. But whatever happened ... happened. healing touch. I don’t know how in the world that could be “placebo effect.” Although placebo effect can be highly effective and can certainly explain some instances of spiritual healing.

 

[stvdv]

I did. I demonstrated how the Reiki master and the Ki striking grandmaster were both full of crap and deeply wrong. Reiki cannot heal you and ki striking cannot harm anybody. At best the former operates like a placebo and the other can make for some jump scare, but they cannot produce the effect they claim it would, yet they kept holding on to such practice. This is pretty much the definition of idiocy. If that doesn't prove someone is being an idiot in that specific circumstances than I don't think anbody qualifies for it.

Yes, for those 2 you can declare "they act idotic, making a claim they have an ability, but are unable to show it"
But, you can not declare that "nobody has this ability". I can not declare that "somebody has this ability"
I am just open to both possibilities. No need even to believe or not believe for me. I will believe/know if I have seen it myself. I have not seen it.

 

[stvdv]

I personnaly believe, and for that I don't have solid evidence, that these two guru were perfectly cognisant of the fact their beliefs didn't and couldn't produce the effect they were claiming they could (AKA they were frauds). They were lying and manipulating credulous, fragile or otherwise ignorant, to gain the admiration of people and money (both were charging students). Both of these men also discouraged critical inquiries on their beliefs or tests. It's possible they were themselves manipulated by other guru before or were delusionnal (AKA they were not frauds). But, based on the fact these people seemed otherwise perfectly sane and well adjusted and that they had crafted strategies to prevent critical analysis of their beliefs by their students, this seems to me like the behavior of a fraud more than a manipulated victim or a delusionnal person.

I believe you, what you say here. That those 2 are frauds. And IMO not a smart thing of them to claim something they can't even show.
I went to quite a few of the best so called clairvoyants with very a specific question about my health; to test them. All had it wrong.

I also went to one Tibetan doctor in India, and he meditated for a while and told me that he got a vision. Amazingly it was the same vision I had myself a few times, but I did not know what it meant. This Tibetan doctor could interpret the vision correctly, because he was a good doctor, understanding what was wrong with my health, and the vision was a warning of a mistake I made.

 

[stvdv]

I only voted so I could see the result.

Thank you for sharing. Very honest, I like that. So the truth is that you are curious. #MeToo

 

[stvdv]

I once heard it said that "the name of the game is the Game of the Name".
Nice.

I like that one. Name is said to be powerful, and to play with it have been a nice Game now and then.

 

[stvdv]

some thing that all roads lead to God.
however .''narrow is the gate and cramped the road leading off into life, and few are finding it.''

All road leads to God for me means "All Religions lead to Love"
Narrow is the gate seems to be true for all the Religions

An interesting Game, say no to temptations of life to find Life

 

[stvdv]

I was delighted to read both your posts, above.
I just keep an open mind if I can.

I've been such an idiot in my life, on occasions, that I don't like to accuse anybody else of that now. Anyway, an idiot is just a disabled person, medically speaking.

Sometimes I think back of really idiotic things I have done, or thought I had, or a few times the foolish things I said.
They still make me feel embarrassed, when thinking of them. Ego likes to hold on to "feeling embarrassed" it seems.