Do you want Real Truth or convenient Truth?

[stvdv]

Did I meet some of these guru, yes, I personnaly met two.
Did I follow their teachings as a devotee?
No, I'm not an idiot.
Did I had access to the content of their teachings, absolutely.

I see subjectivity, and no objectivity in what you write here; not a scientific approach

Oh dear........

Your system might be more distorted than those you review.
At present your view seems to be:- All Devotees are idiots.

That is the only conclusion I come to, with the information given here

And if that is the case, then I agree with the below:

I can't trust that.
Hey! I found another thing to distrust.......

 

[cataway]

Seems to me, that the Bible agrees with Freedom of Religion, being "All are free to practise the Religion of their choice."

now ya get to give scriptures to back up that thought

 

[stvdv]

Indeed, if you strongly believe in complete idiocy that makes you an idiot in that specific circumstances.

Of course this is your personal (subjective) opinion, that something is complete idiocy.
And that of course, says something about you, not necessarily about the other

If you believe someone has magical power to cure people by the power of touch and faith, you are an idiot.

Again your personal opinion. All it tells me, is that you never experienced anything of these wonderful things yourself.

If you think you can knock out someone in fight by shouting at them and without touching them, you are an idiot.

My Master always said "what you see in others, is in you".

The only way people fall for those things is because they are taken by those excellent liars (who don't always know they are liars) at a moment of vulnerability, with the help of peer pressure and are kept in the dark by their guru who will discourage all form of skeptical inquiries.

Some people are devious enough to make a fool out of others around them. That's what those guru did.

Okay, then I understand you get upset with those 2 gurus. I would stay far from such gurus too.
But your 3 generalizing claims above make no sense, and are not proven, just because you had 2 negative experiences.

 

[stvdv]

in the states as it is in many countrys is the fredom of religion and peopel take it to mean they can worship the most high God any way they want to

Yet when the bible is read and stuidyed, such an idea is not found.

Seems to me, that the Bible agrees with Freedom of Religion, being "All are free to practise the Religion of their choice."

now ya get to give scriptures to back up that thought

I saw that one coming, while writing

BUT:

Yet when the bible is read and stuidyed, such an idea is not found.

But then it seems to me that you need to start first backing up your line here; as you started with making a claim first, right?

 

[Evangelicalhumanist]

Did you already figure out who this "I" is, in the question "How do I know"?

I won't go there. I can find no reason whatever to question whether or not I exist. "Je pense, donc, je suis."

 

[cataway]

I saw that one coming, while writing

BUT:


But then it seems to me that you need to start first backing up your line here; as you started with making a claim first, right?

ah , you are aware of the book of Exodes?? 20 -24 where he told them what he exspected of them.
he was not wishywashy about it was he ?? And they said: “All that Jehovah has spoken we are willing to do, and we will be obedient".
alass ,as it turns out ,they ,in time ,proved they could not be obedient to God's standers. alllllll, because they did not want to.



Matthew 4:10 ......"It is Jehovah your God you must worship, and it is to him alone you must render sacred service."

Sooo if any feal they can worship any way they want and that God is ready and willing. all because he is so desperate to get someone to show him the honer he does deserve . then, like to Israel, there will come a day of reckoning .

 

[stvdv]

Did you already figure out who this "I" is, in the question "How do I know"?

I won't go there.

That is clear.

I can find no reason whatever to question whether or not I exist

Oh, I never thought about that question as "whether or not I exist"
To me, it is straightforward "Who Am I"

 

[mikkel_the_dane]

I won't go there. I can find no reason whatever to question whether or not I exist. "Je pense, donc, je suis."

I can, but then again, I also question reason and existence. If doubt are to be meaningful as a way of questioning one's own beliefs, then I find it problematic to limit doubt.
Even your quote is a case of doubt by René Descartes. But even "I think, therefore I am" is open to doubt.

So if it should be that you somehow demand doubt of religious people, I simply return the favor that you doubt what you claim you know and the limit of e.g. reason and existence. Or you are using a double standard. You base your worldview on what makes subjectively sense to you, but question others, which do that.

 

[stvdv]

ah , you are aware of the book of Exodes?? 20 -24 where he told them what he exspected of them. he was not wishywashy about it was he ?? And they said: “All that Jehovah has spoken we are willing to do, and we will be obedient".
alass ,as it turns out ,they ,in time ,proved they could not be obedient to God's standers. alllllll, because they did not want to.

Thank you for sharing your verse. I am not very good at Bible numbers, luckily you had the text perfect, so google found it immediately.
Your verse is Exodus 19:8 And all the people answered together, "We will do everything that the LORD has spoken." So Moses brought their words back to the LORD.
So, following God means still that all the major Religions are included in the "Game".
Because they all have this concept of the "Great Unknown", that some call God, others call Jehova or ....

Matthew 4:10 ......"It is Jehovah your God you must worship, and it is to him alone you must render sacred service."

So, here again "we are told to worship Jehova your God"
And when we examine this careful, then it means Jehova is the name used for God for the group spoken to at that time
This does not exclude other Religions, who may be using another name for their God (Allah, Brahman or ...)

Sooo if any feal they can worship any way they want and that God is ready and willing. all because he is so desperate to get someone to show him the honer he does deserve . then, like to Israel, there will come a day of reckoning .

I don't know God's agenda, or how He will act, when not following His advice. So, that part I leave to others.

But all Religions do have lots of prescriptions how to worship God, or how to behave proper. And like a football game, indeed maybe God issues red cards or yellow card. I can't claim this. But even if God does not do it, I feel inside an urge to do the best I can, anyway

So, to me this verse includes other major Religions, as they all evolve around "The Great Unknown", called "God" or "Allah" or "Brahma" etc....

 

[epronovost]

The actual criteria in science are objective

Usefulness, in that context, is a criteria and it's measurable in an objective manner since it doesn't take into account personnal appreciation.

but you follow them, because that is subjectively useful to you.

Any context of usefulness is subjective.

Well of course when discussing the wisdom of a belief, usefulness is going to be the critieria since that's what wisdom entails. If we were talking about the beauty of a belief we would be using other criteria like aesthetics and if we were talking about it's morality we would be talking about ethics (and also some usefulness too come to think of it).

Yes, you are correct that in saying that the usefulness cannot be used as a criteria to assess everything and anything in any circumstances since it's a criteria and not all criteria are relevent to a specific debate and conversation. If we are debating the color of a car, weight is a useless criteria. If we talk about the wisdom of an idea, which we were, usefulness is pretty much the only measurable criteria usable. If you have another criteria feel free to present it.

 

[epronovost]

But your 3 generalizing claims above make no sense, and are not proven, just because you had 2 negative experiences.

So what you are in essene saying is that people who believe they can knock out people in a boxing ring without touching their opponent physically are wise... because maybe one day it will work...somehow? This isn't about a bad experience with a guru. It's about bad ideas and pretending they are good. A wise belief is a belief that is useful and can be scrutinised.

You seems to get your panties in a twist because I called an idiot an idiot and calling people idiot is mean more than anything. Frankly, if you don't consider idiotic the idea that you can knock people out in a boxing ring without touching them physically despite the fact that it has never, ever worked and cannot even be demonstrated to "theoretically work", then I don't know what idiocy is to you. If you believe the impossible in spite of all that can be observed to the contrary, you are an idiot or have been duped and act no differently than an idiot.

 

[cataway]

Thank you for sharing your verse. I am not very good at Bible numbers, luckily you had the text perfect, so google found it immediately.
Your verse is Exodus 19:8 And all the people answered together, "We will do everything that the LORD has spoken." So Moses brought their words back to the LORD.
So, following God means still that all the major Religions are included in the "Game".
Because they all have this concept of the "Great Unknown", that some call God, others call Jehova or ....


So, here again "we are told to worship Jehova your God"
And when we examine this careful, then it means Jehova is the name used for God for the group spoken to at that time
This does not exclude other Religions, who may be using another name for their God (Allah, Brahman or ...)


I don't know God's agenda, or how He will act, when not following His advice. So, that part I leave to others.

But all Religions do have lots of prescriptions how to worship God, or how to behave proper. And like a football game, indeed maybe God issues red cards or yellow card. I can't claim this. But even if God does not do it, I feel inside an urge to do the best I can, anyway

So, to me this verse includes other major Religions, as they all evolve around "The Great Unknown", called "God" or "Allah" or "Brahma" etc....

ya made refrence to ''The Game" is that a idiom ? if so , when we get right down to it Jehovah is the only true game in town.

 

[stvdv]

Okay, then I understand you get upset with those 2 gurus. I would stay far from such gurus too.
But your 3 generalizing claims above make no sense, and are not proven, just because you had 2 negative experiences.

So what you are in essene saying is that people who believe they can knock out people in a boxing ring without touching their opponent physically are wise.

I never said that.

This isn't about a bad experience with a guru. It's about bad ideas and pretending they are good.

All people have ideas/opinions. I only said this is your opinion. And you are free to have an opinion.
To claim it as a fact, you need to prove it. That is all I said.

A wise belief is a belief that is useful and can be scrutinised.

No problem for me, that you believe that way. And I understand you believe that way, as you explained about skepticism.

You seems to get your panties in a twist because I called an idiot an idiot and calling people idiot is mean more than anything.

No. I have no "panties in a twist".
I just said that calling those people idiots is your opinion. Don't claim it as a fact, when it's your opinion. That's all.

 

[mikkel_the_dane]

ya made refrence to ''The Game" is that a idiom ? if so , when we get right down to it. Jehovah is the only true game in town.

Well, to you that is true. To some of us, it is different, but then again, you hold the Real Truth, I don't. So what is next?

 

[stvdv]

ya made refrence to ''The Game" is that a idiom ? if so , when we get right down to it Jehovah is the only true game in town.

Goal in Life. Sometimes I see it as a "The Game" (I am serious, esp. in this game though).

Why I used the word Game? Probably from the 10 years I spend in India

Lila (pronounced Leela) is the play of creation. To awakened consciousness, the entire universe. With all its joys and sorrows, pleasures and pains, appears as a divine game, sport, or drama. It is a play in which the one Consciousness performs all the roles.

Seeing it this whole Divine Play as a Game, makes it sometimes easier to keep on playing

 

[stvdv]

ya made refrence to ''The Game" is that a idiom ? if so , when we get right down to it Jehovah is the only true game in town.

It's always good to speak for yourself, when talking about Spirituality. When you generalize, generally you make huge mistakes.
(You even violate RF Rules if you make a claim, when it is just your own opinion. Making a bold claim is not always easy to prove.)

So, better you phrase it as "if so , then, when I get right down to it, Jehovah is the only true game in town IMHO (In my humble opinion)."
The word IMHO is like magic on RF. You become like invincible for the ones who love to debate and expose wrong claims

 

[Jedster]

ya made refrence to ''The Game" is that a idiom ? if so , when we get right down to it Jehovah is the only true game in town.

I once heard it said that "the name of the game is the Game of the Name".
Nice.

 

[stvdv]

If you believe someone has magical power to cure people by the power of touch and faith, you are an idiot.

So you've never been healed by a healer...... have you ever investigated healing and healers or are you just repeating an indoctrination?
In 1972 I took my very sick wife to Harry Edwards of Leatherhead, England. She did not have any more grand mal seizures for a couple of years (previously every day) and when they restarted I went back to Leatherhead to discover that Harry had just died. Most strange events.

Thank you for sharing your wonderful experiences of "magic" healing. I always enjoy reading these.
And you have personal proof that "magical power to cure" does happen.

Personal experience-proof trumps any scientific evidence IMO.

I had healing on Monday 16th October 2017 at a Spiritualist church in Whitstable, England, and two days later at 11am my wife and I heard from the specialist that all my cancer tests (11) had come back negative. He (and I) expected a quite different result.

You were very blessed, with some more proof. Wonderful. Thanks again for sharing.

 

[stvdv]

But the crazy thing is, after having the most dreadful knee problems for over 40 years (couldn't kneel, stand up on my bike pedals, climb steps, etc) after 16/10/17' my blooming knees cleared up. I can kneel, stand up on my bike pedals, the lot.

So, really good to hear you finally got rid of "dreadful knee problems". I know knee pain can be painful. I am lucky, if I have it, and don't move there is no pain, but the slightest movement hurts. So I am so grateful, that now already ca. 26 years Sai Baba has been taken my knee pain karma.

I had knee problems when I was ca. 20 years (36 years ago). I started a diet, and it disappeared. When I was in Ashram with Sai Baba, I did a Yoga class, and suddenly something in my knee broke. Horrible pain, could not walk. After 1 month I said to Sai Baba "I am in your Ashram, you promise to take care of us, while here. So please help me, I don't go to doctors". Pain was gone. But sometimes (once a year, it's back suddenly; luckily only 1 day). Like a reminder of God's Grace, that is how I see it. I remember that Sai Baba and Ramana Maharishi both have said "I take care of your karma, until you can take care of it yourself". So, I am even happy, that it is not cured permanently, because now I am reminded every once in a while, that Grace does exist. Otherwise I might take it for granted, or just forget it most of the time.

 

[epronovost]

I never said that.

Would you say that it's idiotic (in reference to the "ki striking martial art")? I would say it is since it obviously doesn't work and can't even demonstrate that it could potentially work.

To claim it as a fact, you need to prove it. That is all I said.

I did. I demonstrated how the Reiki master and the Ki striking grandmaster were both full of crap and deeply wrong. Reiki cannot heal you and ki striking cannot harm anybody. At best the former operates like a placebo and the other can make for some jump scare, but they cannot produce the effect they claim it would, yet they kept holding on to such practice. This is pretty much the definition of idiocy. If that doesn't prove someone is being an idiot in that specific circumstances than I don't think anbody qualifies for it.

(the common definition of idiocy being that which is showing a great lack of intelligence and common sense)

I personnaly believe, and for that I don't have solid evidence, that these two guru were perfectly cognisant of the fact their beliefs didn't and couldn't produce the effect they were claiming they could (AKA they were frauds). They were lying and manipulating credulous, fragile or otherwise ignorant, to gain the admiration of people and money (both were charging students). Both of these men also discouraged critical inquiries on their beliefs or tests. It's possible they were themselves manipulated by other guru before or were delusionnal (AKA they were not frauds). But, based on the fact these people seemed otherwise perfectly sane and well adjusted and that they had crafted strategies to prevent critical analysis of their beliefs by their students, this seems to me like the behavior of a fraud more than a manipulated victim or a delusionnal person.