Do you Think we have Free Will

[Copernicus]

No that is not a problem for me. That is only a problem for those who want to find fault in a perfectly rational story.
God allows us to be what He created us to be, humans with moral choices to make. We choose and reap the consequences of our choices.
Even people who believe in God and that He knows our sins, continue to sin.

I certainly am in no position to judge what goes on in your head, so I take your word that you take the story seriously. I doubt that there are a lot of believers who do, but it's hard to say. My point was that A&E in the tale are making a free choice to disobey God, just as you say. What is hard to believe about the story is God's behavior. Adam and Eve are just a man and a woman who discover they are sexually attracted to each other. Presumably, God knew it would all happen (because he made them that way) but thought they should have behaved otherwise than he knew they would. Sorry, but that clearly is not rational behavior on the deity's part. A&E were just behaving like a couple of teenagers.

 

[muhammad_isa]

A&E were just behaving like a couple of teenagers.

I don't know where you get that from.
I thought that they ate from 'the tree knowledge' .. metaphorically speaking.

..and it wasn't what they thought it was. They were duped.

 

[Copernicus]

I don't know where you get that from.
I thought that they ate from 'the tree knowledge' .. metaphorically speaking.

..and it wasn't what they thought it was. They were duped.

Like I said. They were behaving like teenagers.

Anyway, there are really interesting parallels between the Hebrew origin story and the more ancient Semitic (i.e. Akkadian) epic of Gilgamesh, where a woman temptress lures a naive male (Enkidu) out of his wilderness "paradise" to become a civilized human being (like eating from the "tree of knowledge"). Enkidu dies in the end and curses the woman for having civilized him. That kicks of the main quest by Gilgamesh for immortality, and he even meets the early prototype for the Noah story--Utnapishtim--for help in his quest. It's a fascinating epic and apparently, very widespread folklore in early Semitic cultures.

 

[muhammad_isa]

Like I said. They were behaving like teenagers.

You must have a lot of white hair.

 

[Copernicus]

You must have a lot of white hair.

Not nearly as much as I would like.

 

[Brian2]

I certainly am in no position to judge what goes on in your head, so I take your word that you take the story seriously. I doubt that there are a lot of believers who do, but it's hard to say. My point was that A&E in the tale are making a free choice to disobey God, just as you say. What is hard to believe about the story is God's behavior. Adam and Eve are just a man and a woman who discover they are sexually attracted to each other. Presumably, God knew it would all happen (because he made them that way) but thought they should have behaved otherwise than he knew they would. Sorry, but that clearly is not rational behavior on the deity's part. A&E were just behaving like a couple of teenagers.

I have no idea what you are talking about unless you have made up your own version of the story of A&E and are ignoring the Bible story.
You could always go to the Bible and read the story and judge God on the actual story.

 

[Copernicus]

I have no idea what you are talking about unless you have made up your own version of the story of A&E and are ignoring the Bible story.
You could always go to the Bible and read the story and judge God on the actual story.

I suggest that you take your own advice and pay attention to the description of Adam and Eve's awareness of their nakedness, which only began after the consumption of the forbidden fruit. If you think that had nothing to do with sex, we can leave it at your claim to have no idea what I was talking about. I'm not interested in explaining it to you.

From the Book of Genesis:

[3:7] Then the eyes of both were opened, and they knew that they were naked; and they sewed fig leaves together and made loincloths for themselves​

 

[Brian2]

I suggest that you take your own advice and pay attention to the description of Adam and Eve's awareness of their nakedness, which only began after the consumption of the forbidden fruit. If you think that had nothing to do with sex, we can leave it at your claim to have no idea what I was talking about. I'm not interested in explaining it to you.

From the Book of Genesis:

There was no prohibition on sex. God actually told them to multiply and fill the earth.
Actually God forbade Adam from eating from the tree of knowledge of good and evil even before Eve was there, so I don't think that "sex" was in mind.
Gen 2:15 The Lord God took the man and put him in the Garden of Eden to work it and take care of it. 16 And the Lord God commanded the man, “You are free to eat from any tree in the garden; 17 but you must not eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, for when you eat from it you will certainly die.”

 

[muhammad_isa]

There is no prohibition on sex.

..except when there is.

 

[Brian2]

..except when there is.

OK, there "was" no prohibition on sex in Eden.
I changed my sarcastic post to reflect a more Bible based interpretation.

 

[Copernicus]

There was no prohibition on sex. God actually told them to multiply and fill the earth.
Actually God forbade Adam from eating from the tree of knowledge of good and evil even before Eve was there, so I don't think that "sex" was in mind.
Gen 2:15 The Lord God took the man and put him in the Garden of Eden to work it and take care of it. 16 And the Lord God commanded the man, “You are free to eat from any tree in the garden; 17 but you must not eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, for when you eat from it you will certainly die.”

I think I made my point, and your opinion of a different passage doesn't really contradict anything I said. That said, we can get back to the thread topic, which is free will.

From the perspective of an omniscient observer of a chaotic deterministic system, there are no choices to consider, because agents cannot step outside of causal determinism. All the choices they will ever make are fixed and predetermined by causal interactions known to the observer. However, from the perspective of a being embedded in the system and attempting to survive as it progresses through temporal phases, the future will always be undetermined at the point where choices have to be made. Trial and error are vital to the success of a being facing an uncertain future, so every choice is a process of weighing options and selecting the best option to satisfy the needs and goals of the agent. Agents learn from their mistakes and successes, so survival depends on being free to make decisions and modify tactics over time to optimize survival. Free will makes sense from the perspective of an embedded agent facing an uncertain future. It does not make sense from the perspective of an omniscient observer for whom the agent's future is certain.

 

[Brian2]

I think I made my point, and your opinion of a different passage doesn't really contradict anything I said. That said, we can get back to the thread topic, which is free will.

From the perspective of an omniscient observer of a chaotic deterministic system, there are no choices to consider, because agents cannot step outside of causal determinism. All the choices they will ever make are fixed and predetermined by causal interactions known to the observer. However, from the perspective of a being embedded in the system and attempting to survive as it progresses through temporal phases, the future will always be undetermined at the point where choices have to be made. Trial and error are vital to the success of a being facing an uncertain future, so every choice is a process of weighing options and selecting the best option to satisfy the needs and goals of the agent. Agents learn from their mistakes and successes, so survival depends on being free to make decisions and modify tactics over time to optimize survival. Free will makes sense from the perspective of an embedded agent facing an uncertain future. It does not make sense from the perspective of an omniscient observer for whom the agent's future is certain.

As long as you mean by all that, that we have free will even if God knows what we will freely choose, I agree.
IOW it is not God's knowing what we will do that determines what we will do, it is our choices which determine that.

 

[Copernicus]

As long as you mean by all that, that we have free will even if God knows what we will freely choose, I agree.
IOW it is not God's knowing what we will do that determines what we will do, it is our choices which determine that.

Yes, because the future is undetermined from the perspective of the person making the choices. My problem with your putative deity is that he freely chooses to punish his creations for making choices he doesn't want them to make but could prevent them from making. But, if God lacks free will, never mind. He's as evil as his creations. The idea of an omnipotent, omniscient God carries a lot of cognitive dissonance that you choose to live with and I do not.

The bottom line is that people and gods are responsible for the choices they make. IRL, that is part of the mechanism that goes into determining our actions.

 

[muhammad_isa]

The idea of an omnipotent, omniscient God carries a lot of cognitive dissonance that you choose to live with and I do not..

Not really .. you might be imagining G-d as a person, which is quite natural .. due to the fact that it is
difficult to imagine anything else. G-d is NOT however, a person.

 

[Copernicus]

Not really .. you might be imagining G-d as a person, which is quite natural .. due to the fact that it is
difficult to imagine anything else. G-d is NOT however, a person.

Muhammad, I think that trying to imagine God NOT as a person is cognitive dissonance. So many traits that people attribute to him (i.e. a male, a father, anger, love, interest in and judgment of human behavior, etc.) are human traits. The standard explanation of anthropomorphism by believers is that God made us in his image, yet it seems more plausible (not cognitively dissonant) to me that that is exactly how God would be if humans made him in their image. Anyway, we drift away from the topic again.

 

[Brian2]

Yes, because the future is undetermined from the perspective of the person making the choices. My problem with your putative deity is that he freely chooses to punish his creations for making choices he doesn't want them to make but could prevent them from making. But, if God lacks free will, never mind. He's as evil as his creations. The idea of an omnipotent, omniscient God carries a lot of cognitive dissonance that you choose to live with and I do not.

The bottom line is that people and gods are responsible for the choices they make. IRL, that is part of the mechanism that goes into determining our actions.

A&E story shows that humans wanted to be free to choose their own path even when we know God is going to judge us.
The bigger picture has also angels who have chosen to go their own way also.
It is all God's creation and God has chosen His way of getting rid of evil in His creation and it includes letting us know where evil leads us and the destruction it causes,,,,,,,,,, and doing this without taking away our moral choices and responsibilities as humans and angels if we happen to be one of them.

 

[Copernicus]

A&E story shows that humans wanted to be free to choose their own path even when we know God is going to judge us.
The bigger picture has also angels who have chosen to go their own way also.
It is all God's creation and God has chosen His way of getting rid of evil in His creation and it includes letting us know where evil leads us and the destruction it causes,,,,,,,,,, and doing this without taking away our moral choices and responsibilities as humans and angels if we happen to be one of them.

I don't know whether you picked up on my hints, but I believe that the Pentateuch is largely mythology. I'm not alone in my opinion that the Hebrew narrative is just one of many offshoots of the Gilgamesh epic that was endemic in the Middle East for many centuries and influenced many other mythological narratives. So I'm not interested in debating your particular interpretation of Hebrew scripture, although I feel you are as entitled to your opinions as I am to mine. I do believe that the debate over free will has its origins in the theological debate over whether an omniscient, omnipotent deity is justified in blaming its creations for disobedience to its moral commands. That is an ancient debate that is very much alive for those in our current era who still take the old creation myths seriously. I do not. Nevertheless, that does make theological debates over free will relevant to the secular debate that more modern philosophers have taken up over determinism and free will.

 

[muhammad_isa]

I do believe that the debate over free will has its origins in the theological debate over whether an omniscient, omnipotent deity is justified in blaming its creations for disobedience to its moral commands..

What is it about reality, that you do not understand?
I mean, G-d or no god, it remains the same.

That means, that you will have to find another thing "to blame" for your misfortunes.

 

[Comradio251]

* In this context Free Will is defined as the ability to make choices that are not fully determined by past events nor fully random

I know this is a hard question and that nobody claims to have 100% certanity..... but in your opinion what is more likely to be true?... do you think humans have the aility to make choices ?

Free will is an illusion. It's for people who believe they have the free choice of doing anything with their lives. But here is the problem with that. How do you know you had the free decision to make the choice you just made before making it? You don't.

If you made choice A then you were never going to pick choice B otherwise, you would have already chosen it before picking choice A. Therefore, you were meant to pick choice A all along. Does that sound like free will? No, It sounds like you did exactly what you were meant to do all along.

 

[muhammad_isa]

Free will is an illusion.

Well in that case, your posts are meaningless, and not written by you.