Do you Think we have Free Will

[shunyadragon]

Repeating the word "evidence" over and over again is only evidence of your inability to
support your position.

No the "evidence" is overwhelming and the internet is open to you to access it.

National Geographic is a great comprehensive source at the High School reading level.

"You can lead a horse to water, but you cannot force the horse to drink."

 

[muhammad_isa]

No the "evidence" is overwhelming and the internet is open to you to access it..

The evidence is overwhelming that a determined future is not compatible with free-will?
I think not..

 

[shunyadragon]

The evidence is overwhelming that a determined future is not compatible with free-will?
I think not..

Your thinking in the ancient religious tribal mode is an accepted limitation of your intentional ignorance of science.

I gave you reasonable examples and a source that presents the evidence in a logical coherent way at the high school level, and of course you chose to ignore it.

The ability of science to predict the future within a range of possible outcomes limited by causal determinism does not negate the existence of human ability to make choices within the limited range of causal determinism.,

 

[muhammad_isa]

The ability of science to predict the future within a range of possible outcomes limited by causal determinism does not negate the existence of human ability to make choices within the limited range of causal determinism.,

..waffle..

 

[shunyadragon]

..waffle..

Put syrup on it in a stack of ten and pig out.

 

[Copernicus]

I was clear and specific on my view of evolution and Dennett and you misrepresented me. Your failure to apologize is understandable considering your erratic, inconsistent nature of your posts.

I think you are prone to thinking you have been misrepresented when your claims are challenged and refuted. You refuse to let yourself be pinned down on exactly what you mean in your posts. Repeated requests for clarifications end up being stonewalled. The few who have bothered to read our back-and-forth comments can judge for themselves which of us has been erratic and inconsistent.

...No, compatibilism only maintains that the everyday concept of what "free will" means is fully compatible with a deterministic chaotic reality. Human beings are basically "moist robots", to use a facetious metaphor. It does not maintain that free will is an illusion except when it is construed as freedom from causal determinism. That would be the antithesis of compatibilism.

Again not worthy of responding tr. More misrepresentation of my view. I am not the one that proposed humans were "moist robots."

This is what I mean. Nothing in the passage you quote is about you. I never said anywhere that you proposed humans were "moist robots". So you are actually misrepresenting what I have said about that expression in the past, which was a joke expression originally that Dennett has said he rather likes. I like it too. Not you. All I did was disagree with you statements about compatibilism. That is not misrepresenting you!

 

[Brian2]

Yes I do blame God in mythical scenario, because God is responsible in this myth for Creating Adam and Eve as they are and knowing in advance what would happen. In this scenario Adam and Eve were set up to fail in God knowing advance what wa going to happen. God need not force them to do anything he knew what was going to happen.

Knowing in advance does not mean determinism if God knows what people will do freely.
God also knows the really distant future and that all the suffering etc would be worth it in the end.
With our limited knowledge we blame God for the suffering but faith that God is good enables us to praise God for a future without suffering or evil.
We see a bigger picture by faith and trust God by faith.

 

[geomagnetism]

then why god know why know i know became like that...

 

[shunyadragon]

Knowing in advance does not mean determinism if God knows what people will do freely.

Based on the Created nature of humans and God knew in advance Adam and Eve had no choice.

God also knows the really distant future and that all the suffering etc would be worth it in the end.

That is equally bizarre, That all human suffering and death of humans and Creation was determined in advance by God, and it is somehow worth it in the end.

With our limited knowledge we blame God for the suffering but faith that God is good enables us to praise God for a future without suffering or evil.
We see a bigger picture by faith and trust God by faith.

Limited knowledge is not the issue. It is the actual description of the events in Genesis and the specific consequences described in the text,

The accounts in the Pentateuch like Creation and Noah's flood are documented as evolved mythology from Sumerian, Babylonian, and Canaanite writings.

 

[muhammad_isa]

That is equally bizarre, That all human suffering and death of humans and Creation was determined in advance by God, and it is somehow worth it in the end..

Well, this where our perception of 'time' let's us down.
"determined in advance" is meaningless in the context of an omniscient G-d.
He sees 'time' as we see length, width, height i.e. simultaneously.

 

[robocop (actually)]

Your response will only have meaning unless you can cite peer revied research and articles and dummerize to support an argument.

So here are the attributes I have found the Universe to contain. Not trying to convince, just sharing for fun:
No time, yet velocity, acceleration, etc... acceleration is felt.
Consciousness, but no free will
God, and progress can be made to be like God
Infinite variety in space from the start.
All matter has both physical properties and mental properties.

So at this moment, we are either in the state of making ourselves better or not. If we are, we have won at life. If not, we have not. That relates to Yahweh. Yahweh means [winning at the moment].

As for a peer-reviewed paper they do me no good [in this topic] since I reinvent the wheel.

 

[osgart]

* In this context Free Will is defined as the ability to make choices that are not fully determined by past events nor fully random

I know this is a hard question and that nobody claims to have 100% certanity..... but in your opinion what is more likely to be true?... do you think humans have the aility to make choices ?

You would have to understand the nature of desire to answer this question. That is not a physically empirical thing to do. Intrinsic desire cannot be observed. Only extrinsic behaviour can be observed.

Predictability of outcomes will not inform anyone as to the nature and extent of free will in this context. People freely do predictable things. People also must do predictable things by the limitations of available options.

There is an internal free will ability to make choices. The natural world limits are choices externally, but not internally.

My answer is that people are free to will what they will according to their desires, but they are not free in the range of possible future outcomes available.

 

[shunyadragon]

Well, this where our perception of 'time' let's us down.
"determined in advance" is meaningless in the context of an omniscient G-d.
He sees 'time' as we see length, width, height i.e. simultaneously.

Does not remotely address the literal meaning of the text and the consequences.

Time is not even an issue here,

 

[Brian2]

Based on the Created nature of humans and God knew in advance Adam and Eve had no choice.

God knew what Adam and Eve would freely choose, so they had a choice,,,,,,,,,,, as we do also.

That is equally bizarre, That all human suffering and death of humans and Creation was determined in advance by God, and it is somehow worth it in the end.

Not determined, known. And God knows that the long term, into eternity, after evil has been eliminated in the world, will make all the suffering and death of the short human history all worth it in the end.

Limited knowledge is not the issue. It is the actual description of the events in Genesis and the specific consequences described in the text,

The accounts in the Pentateuch like Creation and Noah's flood are documented as evolved mythology from Sumerian, Babylonian, and Canaanite writings.

Sure that is what some people say.

 

[shunyadragon]

God knew what Adam and Eve would freely choose, so they had a choice,,,,,,,,,,, as we do also.

That does not help the problem. When we sin it does not condemn all humanity and Creation to suffering and death among othe uncomfortble issues for women. God knows in advance God is directly responsible.

Not determined, known. And God knows that the long term, into eternity, after evil has been eliminated in the world, will make all the suffering and death of the short human history all worth it in the end.

Determined and known.

Sure that is what some people say.

Huh??? Not a coherent response.

 

[muhammad_isa]

Does not remotely address the literal meaning of the text and the consequences.

Time is not even an issue here,

Huh?
You said "That all human suffering and death of humans and Creation was determined in advance.." , and that has nothing to do with 'time' ?

What does "determined in advance" mean to you?
To me, it means that something/someone set the future BEFORE it happened.

Now, that is ALL to do with our perception of time!
i.e. the passing of time from the past to the future

Einstein has demonstrated that that is only a perception, and in reality there is no difference between the past and the future, when it comes to its nature.
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It's a complex topic, but basically, comparing ourselves to G-d when it comes to issues of 'time'
.. such as when you say "G-d knew in advance", is invalid .. meaningless from God's perspective
in which time does NOT pass from the past to future.

I can only try to explain. You'll probably reply with something including 'before & after'

 

[Brian2]

That does not help the problem. When we sin it does not condemn all humanity and Creation to suffering and death among othe uncomfortble issues for women. God knows in advance God is directly responsible.

What problem are you talking about?
The issue is free will. God knew what A&E would freely choose to do. How does God's knowing mean that they cannot freely choose?

Determined and known.

God did not determine suffering and death by taking our free will away.

Huh??? Not a coherent response.

Some people say that the events in Genesis did not happen but that the stories just evolved out of the myths in other religions of the day.
What is not coherent in that response?

 

[Copernicus]

The issue is free will. God knew what A&E would freely choose to do. How does God's knowing mean that they cannot freely choose?

The issue there isn't whether A&E could freely choose but that God knew in advance what their choice would be and still chose to allow it and punish them for it. A&E appear to have been idiots, since they presumably knew that God would find out, him being omniscient and all. Not exactly the behavior one would expect of a rational, merciful deity or the created lovers, but that's only a problem for people who take the story seriously.

 

[muhammad_isa]

A&E appear to have been idiots..

Aren't we all

 

[Brian2]

The issue there isn't whether A&E could freely choose but that God knew in advance what their choice would be and still chose to allow it and punish them for it. A&E appear to have been idiots, since they presumably knew that God would find out, him being omniscient and all. Not exactly the behavior one would expect of a rational, merciful deity or the created lovers, but that's only a problem for people who take the story seriously.

No that is not a problem for me. That is only a problem for those who want to find fault in a perfectly rational story.
God allows us to be what He created us to be, humans with moral choices to make. We choose and reap the consequences of our choices.
Even people who believe in God and that He knows our sins, continue to sin.