Do we have a soul?

[angellous_evangellous]

Of course there's a soul..........


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soul
The soul, according to many religious and philosophical traditions, is the ethereal substance — spirit (Hebrew:rooah or nefesh) — particular to a unique living being. Such traditions often consider the soul both immortal and innately aware of its immortal nature, as well as the true basis for sentience in each living being.

The concept of the soul has strong links with notions of an afterlife, but opinions may vary wildly, even within a given religion, as to what happens to the soul after death. Many within these religions and philosophies see the soul as immaterial, while others consider it possibly material.

Note: This article uses the word "soul" in the common form, and deals largely with varied concepts from which the concept originates, and to which it relates. The use of the word soul often does not explicitly correspond to usage associated with any particular view or belief, including usage in Western and Eastern religious texts, and in the writings of Plato, Aristotle, Heraclitus, or Plotinus.
Well, if Wikipedia says there is one..............

On that note, we should also read the articles in wikipedia about the Tooth Fairy, Santa Claus, and the Easter Bunny.

The tooth fairy is a fictional character said to give children a small amount of money (or sometimes a present) in exchange for a tooth when it falls out of the deciduous dentition.

The Tooth Fairy is an example of folklore mythology which adults know is fiction, but which is sometimes presented to children as fact. Other prominent examples are Santa Claus and the Easter Bunny. The realization or discovery that such stories are false is considered a part of the child's growing up. Such realizations can also cause significant emotional pain in some children due to feelings of betrayal, while other children regard it as a small matter. Many adults remember clearly for their whole lives when and how they discovered the truth.

 

[Rujo]

In my opinion we don't have a soul that goes on living after we die. The Bible clearly states this fact in Ecclesiastes 3:19,20 and 9:5,10.

 

[wmam]

Someone stated that christians do not believe we have a soul. I just want to say that I use to be a christian. I was raised southern baptist. We were taught that we had souls in sunday school. I would just make a closed in statement like that, that put all under one umbrella unless of course you were speaking in terms of all being sinners or something.

 

[Flappycat]

I think it's poppycock. It's an invention of a conscious creature who has come to believe that its body is an extension of its consciousness rather the reverse that its consciousness is a consequence of parts of its body. It and other such rubbish stem from the arrogance of a creature that feels it must be the purpose of the universe's existence. Consciousness is not an entity unto itself, nor is it of a monolithic nature as with a soul. Call me a pig-headed reductionist--I am one, after all--but I think that the attractiveness of the concept arises from the unattractiveness of us being the invention of crude matter. Nothing about the innards of a clock looks particularly impressive on its own, but the clock tells the time. The forces that drive magma out of the earth through gigantic zits in the terrain aren't particularly exotic, but the effect is no less magnificent or destructive. That your life depends upon matter that can be dissected under a microscope if someone had a mind to doesn't make you any less alive.

 

[michel]

On that note, we should also read the articles in wikipedia about the Tooth Fairy, Santa Claus, and the Easter Bunny.

The tooth fairy is a fictional character said to give children a small amount of money (or sometimes a present) in exchange for a tooth when it falls out of the deciduous dentition.

The Tooth Fairy is an example of folklore mythology which adults know is fiction, but which is sometimes presented to children as fact. Other prominent examples are Santa Claus and the Easter Bunny. The realization or discovery that such stories are false is considered a part of the child's growing up. Such realizations can also cause significant emotional pain in some children due to feelings of betrayal, while other children regard it as a small matter. Many adults remember clearly for their whole lives when and how they discovered the truth.

I hate to say it, but the difference is marked; those that you have quoted are marked as fictional characters........

 

[angellous_evangellous]

I hate to say it, but the difference is marked; those that you have quoted are marked as fictional characters........

Well that was my point.

I talked with an associate about this, and he said, "Sure there is a soul, and it wieghs 21 grams." That's supposedly the amount of wieght a person loses at death. Can anyone help me out with this?

EDIT: I found it on wikipedia.
Dr. Duncan MacDougall, who in the early 1900s sought to measure the weight purportedly lost by a human body when the soul departed the body upon death. MacDougall weighed dying patients in an attempt to prove that the soul was material and measurable. These experiments are widely considered to have had little if any scientific merit, and although MacDougall's results varied considerably from 21 grams, for some people this figure has become synonymous with the measure of a soul's weight.

 

[Popeyesays]

I believe miracles happen around us all the time.

That does not mean that miracles prove anything to those who do not witness them, they simply don't.

I know of miraculous instances in my own faith, but we do not discuss them much because we realize that miracles prove nothing to those who do not witness them, and quite often nothing even to those who DO witness them.

Regards,
Scott

 

[opensoul7]

Yes I believe all life has a "divine spark" or soul given to us by God . Lifes way of being connected while not being connected.like if you took a jar and filled it with seawater then sealed it and droped it in the ocean . It is still apart of the sea but seperate.God is the universal connector , the thread that runs through all life through all things.

 

[Flappycat]

Actually, "belief" has never been strictly defined for me. The Santa at the firestation, for example, was only "real" to me to a somewhat limited extent. It seemed harmless enough, and I figured I'd play along. It never really occured to me to strictly define belief and non-belief from one another. For me, it was just a matter of sitting on "Santa's" lap and asking for stuff. It just became decreasingly likely to me that the existence of such a thing could be a fact. There was no moment of revelation. It never really occurred to me to be particularly upset about it. I don't know why, really, it would occur to anyone.

 

[robtex]

Well that was my point.

I talked with an associate about this, and he said, "Sure there is a soul, and it wieghs 21 grams." That's supposedly the amount of wieght a person loses at death. Can anyone help me out with this?

EDIT: I found it on wikipedia.
Dr. Duncan MacDougall, who in the early 1900s sought to measure the weight purportedly lost by a human body when the soul departed the body upon death. MacDougall weighed dying patients in an attempt to prove that the soul was material and measurable. These experiments are widely considered to have had little if any scientific merit, and although MacDougall's results varied considerably from 21 grams, for some people this figure has become synonymous with the measure of a soul's weight.

If it weighst something than next things to consider are
1) where is it in the body
2) what is it made of
3) if it can be weighted than it would be reasonable to think it could be viewed.

Really this is a hard to thing to debate without having proposed componets and aspects of the soul. "it is just my belief and not verfiable" = not debatable.

 

[Fade]

I do not believe in a soul. I believe in a fleeting moment of consciousness.
We just like to think we are more important than we really are and the belief in a soul is an attempt make death easier to accept.

 

[michel]

I do not believe in a soul. I believe in a fleeting moment of consciousness.
We just like to think we are more important than we really are and the belief in a soul is an attempt make death easier to accept.

We just like to think we are more important than we really are

I agree with (Well, most people think that way)..........but

the belief in a soul is an attempt to make death easier to accept ?

To me, that does not 'compute'. What is fear ? Fear is of the unknown. To believe in a Soul means that you believe that there is consciousness after death; to be an atheist is to believe your consciousness tuns to dust.............

Out of the two, which is the more likely to cause an element of fear ? - Having a soul, of course.because we don't Know what will happen....we hope we think we do, but until the time comes, it is just pure conjecture. Therefore, there is more to fear in the belief of a Soul than in total oblivion.

QED

 

[angellous_evangellous]

"it is just my belief and not verfiable" = not debatable.

It is verifiable that it is a part of our religious texts and is in the realm of biblical interpretation. If we are going to believe in the metaphysical reality of God that is not verifiable by science, it should not surprise us that the religion makes provision for a means by which humanity can relate to the metaphysical reality of God by ascribing to humanity some metaphysical quality that some have termed as the "soul."

Some Christians confess that the Bible is the recorded word of God. If so, the words of God have been recorded by humans and have become a verifiable part of nature. We can verify that the words are there and try to understand what they mean, but finding metaphysical qualities by means of tools that classify and examine nature is strictly prohibited by the scope of natural study. Science can't demonstrate that humans have any metaphysical qualities, but theologians, translators, exgetes, and the like can engage in a variety of imperical historical critical analyses to understand what the text says.

 

[Mike182]

its funny, we were discussing this today in my Religious Studies course

my teacher raised this point, and i don't want to upset anyone, but it is a good point, albeit fairly subjective.
have you ever seen a person asleep?
have you ever seen a person who you knew, relatively soon after they have passed away?

my teacher has, she was with her grandad when he died, she was 18 at the time, and before he died, he was breathign very lightly, looked very pail etc, but he still looked like he was asleep most of the time, like he still had life in him somewhere.

when he died, she said he looked very different to when he was asleep. why, would someone who already looks like death, look different when they actually do die?

her answer is, because something is missing, and i agree.

sorry for the sad post, but it is an argument.
mike

 

[angellous_evangellous]

its funny, we were discussing this today in my Religious Studies course

my teacher raised this point, and i don't want to upset anyone, but it is a good point, albeit fairly subjective.
have you ever seen a person asleep?
have you ever seen a person who you knew, relatively soon after they have passed away?

my teacher has, she was with her grandad when he died, she was 18 at the time, and before he died, he was breathign very lightly, looked very pail etc, but he still looked like he was asleep most of the time, like he still had life in him somewhere.

when he died, she said he looked very different to when he was asleep. why, would someone who already looks like death, look different when they actually do die?

her answer is, because something is missing, and i agree.

sorry for the sad post, but it is an argument.
mike

Just because we "see" someone after they die does not mean that we have seen a person's "soul." More than likely, it is a figment of our imagination. I imagine that we humans have a stronger connection with eachother than science will ever be able to prove, but that is just my imagination.

 

[Mike182]

Just because we "see" someone after they die does not mean that we have seen a person's "soul." More than likely, it is a figment of our imagination. I imagine that we humans have a stronger connection with eachother than science will ever be able to prove, but that is just my imagination.

hehe, thats not the point, the point was that she has seen him without his soul

it could very well be a figment of imagination, like i said, it is a subjective argument, but an argument from experience non the less

 

[Master Vigil]

There was someting missing. Blood flow, and every other biological activity that made the body warm, supple, and alive. This does not mean that a "soul" was missing.

(However, since I believe the energy running the body is the "spirit" and it was missing. I agree from that perspective.)

 

[Mike182]

There was someting missing. Blood flow, and every other biological activity that made the body warm, supple, and alive. This does not mean that a "soul" was missing.

i agree, but im not talking about a couple of minutes after the person has died, im talking about a couple of seconds after the had passed away - she claimes that he looked distincitively different a couple of seconds after he had died - this would be before the stop of blood flow is noticable, and the other biological stoppages can be noticed

(However, since I believe the energy running the body is the "spirit" and it was missing. I agree from that perspective.)

i too agree with this :woohoo:

 

[Tawn]

Ahhh... the soul question.. very taxing...

Do I believe? No, but of course im open to the suggestion and open to persuasion.

The question is difficult because essentially it means that I face an uncomfortable truth (as i see it). I am no more 'alive' or 'aware' of myself than a complicated sci-fi piece of machinery. We are nothing more than biological machines able to process information and make decisions and learn from the consequences of each decision, but unaware that our decisions are inevitable, arbeit infinitely unpredictable.

This is hard to grasp. It is very difficult to accept our pains, pleasures and experiences as simply 'mechanistic' responses. Input, process and output.

We have to be something more dont we? Something more than a 'dumb' but complex computer?

On the other hand is this simply our self infatuation with our intelligence and supposed freewill manifest? If artificial intelligence was created - would it believe it had a soul or know it was a collection of algorithyms?

One point. A lot of people concentrate on what happens to a soul after we die. There is this rumour about an unexplainable weight loss.. and the way someone looks different to when theyre asleep.
However, what about before we are born? Where does the soul come from? Does god create it out of nothing or reconstitute it from something?
Why do Theists insist on there being an afterlife - when I have experience no fore-life? Even if god did exist why should he not return us to the void? To nonexistance? (Wont heaven eventually get full? )

 

[Mike182]

there is the argument that energy cannot be destroyed, so if you believe their is spirit energy (a soul) you would believe it lives after the body has died - i believe in progressive reincarnation, the soul goes from body to body, that is where the soul in a new baby comes from

i also believe there is a choice involved at some point aswell, but thats for a different thread

ah yes, the weight loss argument, apparantly the brain looses some weight after it has died - though how this has been tested i do not know - i would need to do some research before i could quote such an argument in a debate

blessed be
mike