Do those who prefer falsehood over truth deserve hell forever?

[Spice]

Well, we certainly don't "need" a punishment, surely?

See post 78.

 

[PureX]

Then this life should not have been created by God. Why test us, and then same results at the end. Just skip the test.

I don’t think this life is a test. I think it’s part of a process of development.

 

[sayak83]

How can it help reform souls. They see punishment, it's too late to generate love. It's too late, because God is not hidden, and fearing God while hidden is a virtue, while he is manifest like he will be on the day of judgment, will bring harm to the soul because it knows the consequences of the evil it has become. It's too late to repent and reform at that point.

The believers fear God while hidden but on day of judgment, will not be harmed and will be safe and be expecting reward. This is while disbelievers do not fear God in this world, and will despairingly fear God on day of judgment.

If it's brought back in reincarnation, it's even more corrupt now, and there is no room for goodwill. It's too late when the truth is too clear.

No entity is ever beyond redemption and reform and ultimate goodness. Hence eternal hell is never just or good.
The main difference between your view and Hinduism,say, is that we consider the true inner nature of all beings as ultimately that of God...incorruptable and unstainable like the Sun. The evil that is seen is only a temporary cloud of ignorance induced delusions that will eventually, inevitably dissipate away. Hence the idea of utterly corrupted beings is an affront to God as all beings fundamentally are in Him only.

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

But in the paradigm of Quran, the truth is the beauty as well.

Which is irrelevant to the fact that truth can be ugly also.
There is nothing about "truth" that necessarily makes it inherently beautiful.

If you are going to say the quran says otherwise, I'm just going to say the quran is obviously wrong about that.
But since you used the words "as well", I'm guessing you don't.

So if you don't, why are you hammering on about it? Seems completely irrelevant.

 

[Revoltingest]

There is only one God. So it's the same moral judgment, whether people try escape it or accept it.

How does one objectively go about
calculating the number of gods?
And be sure to show your math.

Moral guidance can only be guaranteed to be correct from God's guidance, all other guidance won't be guaranteed to guide. Since moral guidance is imperative on humans, it follows a guidance will come from God.

There are many different religions & sub-religions
believing in this god named God. Many have different
scriptures. But even within the same religions using
the same scriptures, I observe great variation on just
which morals people follow, & which they ignore.
Why is your interpretation right, & everyone else wrong?

The nature of that guidance in details must be in archetype form consistent in all times, that is the religion is true in all times. Scripture is helpful, but not the end all. Scripture in fact calls to God's greatest weapons one earth, the leaders of guidance he appoints. This is the solution. There are more details, that to funnel off false claimants and limit who can falsely claim leadership, the closest in kinship claiming it is always the correct one. There is consistency, from one group to another group of guides, a founder followed by twelve successors has always been the case.

These meta-claims are unsupported.

God doesn't veil himself from creation except if their actions are for other then him.

Evidence?

 

[Revoltingest]

Of course .. but what about people who when you give them a chance, stab you in the back,
and claim to have changed .. but do it again, and again, and again... ... ?

In Hell (as proffered) there will be infinite time
to reform malefactors. It would cost your god
nothing to guide them to a virtuous path.
Vengeance & eternal torture serve no good.

Is it not that such people will eventually not be given any more chances, and will be incarcerated for life?
..and die in secure units?

Why do you think it should be any different in an alternative life .. an afterlife?

An afterlife run by your omnipotent deity
could be better than earthly life. If not,
then your deity has chosen woe over good.
It doesn't speak well of this "God".

 

[Revoltingest]

G-d does not torture anybody .. G-d is not a person.

Whatever this entity is, eternal torture that
it inflicts upon people serves no purpose
but vengeance....or perhaps sadism.
Certainly nothing productive.

Does a person who "cuts off their nose to spite their face" suffer?
Who is responsible for that, would you say?

This analogy doesn't seem to apply.

 

[muhammad_isa]

This analogy doesn't seem to apply.

Can you expand on that?
Do you consider a life hereafter to be a 'magic fairyland' or something?

..just consider it to be a continuation of this life, for sake of argument..

 

[Revoltingest]

Can you expand on that?
Do you consider a life hereafter to be a 'magic fairyland' or something?

I consider it non-existent.
But I work the premise that it comprises Heaven, Hell,
& limbo of many different flavors as described by believers.

..just consider it to be a continuation of this life, for sake of argument..

That doesn't appear to be a common flavor.

 

[Link]

How does one objectively go about
calculating the number of gods?
And be sure to show your math.

Greatness if it exists in ultimate form is great to the extent it encompasses all life. If that is the case, nothing can exist independently of it and certainly cannot be repeated. Greatness to have a reality including any moral greatness, has to be founded in all stages with a basis. The basis to all stages is only Greatness in ultimate form.

There are many different religions & sub-religions
believing in this god named God. Many have different
scriptures. But even within the same religions using
the same scriptures, I observe great variation on just
which morals people follow, & which they ignore.
Why is your interpretation right, & everyone else wrong?

If you rely on the guidance from God and don't mix it with conjecture of people, all of that will become clear.

 

[Link]

No entity is ever beyond redemption and reform and ultimate goodness. Hence eternal hell is never just or good.
The main difference between your view and Hinduism,say, is that we consider the true inner nature of all beings as ultimately that of God...incorruptable and unstainable like the Sun. The evil that is seen is only a temporary cloud of ignorance induced delusions that will eventually, inevitably dissipate away. Hence the idea of utterly corrupted beings is an affront to God as all beings fundamentally are in Him only.

Yeah this a big difference. We believe souls can become dark practically with no light. In fact, Quran says if God knew any goodness (in disbelievers), they would listen (understand guidance), but says in fact furthermore if he makes the dark souls hear they would just run away further.

That said a soul can always do good and change itself, the ball is in it's own court. But without light, it won't see and understand light. If seeking confusion, it won't understand mental clarity and insights in that regard.

 

[Link]

These meta-claims are unsupported.

Leadership is followed by mankind, whether good or bad. Islamic arguments in Quran, is that God provides the best leaders and really it's upon him to choose for us leadership and authority and not for others to choose an authority upon us.

 

[Link]

Which is irrelevant to the fact that truth can be ugly also.
There is nothing about "truth" that necessarily makes it inherently beautiful.

If you are going to say the quran says otherwise, I'm just going to say the quran is obviously wrong about that.
But since you used the words "as well", I'm guessing you don't.

So if you don't, why are you hammering on about it? Seems completely irrelevant.

We aren't refer to all truths though, just the main spiritual truth of God and his reality. Denying some truths as I said in the opening post is not the issue. It's denying the truth that is related with goodness and beauty and denying morality at it's core root which is the problem.

 

[Link]

I don’t think this life is a test. I think it’s part of a process of development.

The development is not needed if people become evil. If the end result is that all would will be fine and good, why not just set it up that no soul goes astray from the start.

 

[Link]

So is it a falsehood to appreciate THIS life, this gift of God, this opportunity to do His will and help our fellow man with the love God has instilled in our souls to share?

Is it not a falsehood to waste our energy, our time, our breath, on some world to come instead of the world God has placed us in now? Is it not a falsehood to think, to act, as though God made a mistake in putting us in the here and now?

The Promise of Heaven/Paradise/the World to Come is the easy to swallow nourishment of milk to sustain us until we are able to feed on the sometimes difficult or unpleasant meat of our mission -- to be caretakers of His creation. We shouldn't need a reward to do what we were made flesh to do.

It depends on how you see the life. If you see it from lenses of Satanic vision, it's not worthy of anything. Certainly not appreciation and God doesn't look at it with favor nor grace nor mercy.

If you see life as a means towards God, than that is fine. That is the life worth living and worth bringing children into the world for.

 

[Link]

The problem is who is telling the truth.

The problem is everyone get's a voice really except God's chosen sent ones. If we give God and his chosen sent ones the proper chance to prove themselves, they will.

 

[F1fan]

Can you expand on that?
Do you consider a life hereafter to be a 'magic fairyland' or something?

The only reason some people in the 21st century still believe in this is due to there being a long tradition of religious influence, and they can't, or won't, apply critical thought to the idea.

..just consider it to be a continuation of this life, for sake of argument..

The emotional exploitation of the fear of death is how so many get convinced that they can have immortality. Why can't these adults understand how they have been taken adavnatge of, and blackmailed to believe in an irrational and non-factual fraework? It becomes a mental trap.

 

[Link]

The emotional exploitation of the fear of death is how so many get convinced that they can have immortality. Why can't these adults understand how they have been taken adavnatge of, and blackmailed to believe in an irrational and non-factual fraework? It becomes a mental trap.

How is believing there are moral consequences taking advantage of a person? That you are accountable for your actions. It seems everyone wants to get away with evil which is evil in itself.

 

[F1fan]

The problem is everyone get's a voice really except God's chosen sent ones.

Just as God created, eh? I guess God should have thought about this ahead of time and made adjustments to creation.

And how do we critical thinkers discern genuine "God's chosen" from those who are frauds? Maybe Jews really are the only true followers of God and Christians and Muslims are victims of fraud.

If we give God and his chosen sent ones the proper chance to prove themselves, they will.

Why haven't they? Is God so impotent that he can't help the "chosen" to make a sound argument?

I'm not a big fan of blaming critical thinkers for not seeing a truth that isn't borne out in facts and reason.

 

[Link]

Just as God created, eh? I guess God should have thought about this ahead of time and made adjustments to creation.

And how do we critical thinkers discern genuine "God's chosen" from those who are frauds? Maybe Jews really are the only true followers of God and Christians and Muslims are victims of fraud.

Why haven't they? Is God so impotent that he can't help the "chosen" to make a sound argument?

I'm not a big fan of blaming critical thinkers for not seeing a truth that isn't borne out in facts and reason.

Followers of his chosen are not to be conflated with the chosen sent ones. The problem a lot of people are expecting those claiming to follow God and his chosen sent ones to guide them. They can't. God's guidance is the guidance and the sent ones (Ahlulbayt in in this time) know how to speak in ways to guide humans other humans can't calculate.