The 12th Jewish principle, is the belief in "the fulfillment of the Messiah".
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Do the Jews Have a God?
- Thread starter wizanda
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Tumah
Veteran Member
No, the 12th Maimonidian Principle of Faith is the coming of the Messiah. Nowhere doe he state that the Messiah would be fulfilled.The 12th Jewish principle, is the belief in "the fulfillment of the Messiah".
Where does the concept come from to create the idea of the Messiah?
When something that is documented comes to pass, what do we call this in English?
Tumah
Veteran Member
"The fulfillment of the Messiah" does not make sense. The messiah is not fulfilled. Messianic prophecies are.Where does the concept come from to create the idea of the Messiah?
When something that is documented comes to pass, what do we call this in English?
rosends
Well-Known Member
In English, we look at a bus schedule and when the bus arrives, we say that the bus has arrived, not that the bus has been fulfilled.Where does the concept come from to create the idea of the Messiah?
When something that is documented comes to pass, what do we call this in English?
RESOLUTION
Active Member
If Yeshua according to the Tanakh is physically David with the spirit of the Lord (YHVH) upon him, and the Jews don't accept the fulfillment of these prophecies, they virtually no longer accept the Messiah, David, Salvation (Yeshua), and YHVH.
Now we could say the Jews are still determined that they should only worship the God Most High (El Elyon); which is a good statement to make.... The only issue with this is the Most High has no image, and YHVH Elohim appears multiple times in human form.
Thus when YHVH is an Elohim, which from its descriptions within the Tanakh is an Arch-Angel/Avatar/Elder, who came as Yeshua; then what or who do they now worship?
You are deceiving yourself.
God never said the Messiah would be physically David. One God as Christ said... To love Christ you have to LOVE GOD with all your heart.
The first commandment is to love God the one God. YHWH is the true God and Jesus Christ is the Son of God the Messiah.
You do as Christ did....
roger1440
I do stuff
Hope
roger1440
I do stuff
Look closely how the word “salvation” or its root “save” is being used in Jewish scripture. In most cases it refers to God protecting, providing and rescuing the Jews.Do you understand the fulfillment of the Messiah to be an act of God, and that within it, the Messiah shall bring Salvation to our people?
Stick to speaking Hebrew, clearly not that good at English or definitions of words...
This specific Messianic bus has many things that have been itemized for it to do, before it arrives at its destination...
When all the specifications that are listed for the bus have been done, we say it has fulfilled all its tasks.
Ezekiel 34:23-24, Jeremiah 23:5, Ezekiel 37:24-25, Jeremiah 30:8-9, Hosea 3:5, Isaiah 55:3, Isaiah 22:22, Isaiah 9:6-7, Revelation 5:5, etc.
It is more based on specific statements throughout the prophets, that indicate a savoir coming along, who shall redeem the people, and make an ever lasting Kingdom.
For the person specified to be the Messiah, the Messianic prophecies must be fulfilled.
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rosends
Well-Known Member
Actually, it is an area of expertise of mine. Which word's definition did I posit, let alone get wrong?
Sure, before the bus arrives, it must gas up, check in, stop at other stops. But when it gets here, it will have arrived. The word "fulfilled" is simply not relevant.
Notice how "had fulfilled" refers to "its tasks" and not "the bus"? The arrival of the bus might fulfill my expectations. It might fulfill the promises of the printed schedule. But the bus itself is not fulfilled. In the same way, there might be a set of prophecies regarding the messianic age, or even foretelling the arrival of the messiah which creates expectation. Both of these might some day be fulfilled (prophecies and expectation) .The tasks required for his coming might be fulfilled also. But there is no "fulfillment of the messiah." Maybe, if you insert something as the object of the preposition "of" then you might have an approach, but until you are comfortable saying "the fulfillment of the bus" you can't say "the fulfillment of the messiah."When all the specifications that are listed for the bus have been done, we say it has fulfilled all its tasks.
roger1440
I do stuff
Yes, but the message of the prophets would have fallen on deaf ears if the Jews did not have hope.
The word arrived is an expectation of a prophecy fulfillment.
It has fallen on deaf ears, this is the whole point; they've refused most of it, as rather than see it all as a procedure that must all be fulfilled, they've got hope in the end bit and ignored the rest.
Totally different expectations, the Messiah himself has to do a series of things according to prophecy; not just turn up like a bus....
The fact the Jews are making such illogical statements, shows the lack of understanding of what the prophets are saying will happen.
Just like Isaiah 5:19, they hasten the coming of the bus, with no real understanding of the things that must be fulfilled.
rosends
Well-Known Member
No, the word arrived indicates presence. If the bus arrives, are you saying that there was prophecy fulfillment? Im agine 2 sentences:
The bus arrived.
The bus fulfilled.
Both third words are verbs, but "fulfill" is transitive while "arrive" is intransitive. The messiah can arrive but the messiah has to fulfill something. There can be no "fulfillment of the messiah". The word just doesn't work that way.
Sure, so the PROPHECIES must be fulfilled. But the messiah can't be fulfilled. The expectation of the bus's arrival, based on the timetable, can be fulfilled. But the BUS can't be fulfilled.
If when the bus arrives, it comes with earthquakes, thunder, lightening, and reality crumbling, think that classifies as a fulfillment...
Making up our own version of events contrary to the prophets, where the bus simply arrives, and we all go on a sight seeing tour around the promised land isn't happening.
Because of not understanding the prophecies properly; the Messiah's 2nd coming is at the destruction of reality, this isn't something that arrives, it isn't something where the Messiah simply turns up.
1st the Messiah can fulfill all the criteria set out that must be fulfilled, then the Messiah has to fulfill things himself to prove he is the Messiah, and lastly the person qualifying as fulfilling all these things is the fulfillment of the Messiah.
rosends
Well-Known Member
You have now lost complete sight of the discussion at hand. The point was to show a parallel English construction to demonstrate that the sentence structure is not valid in English.
Again, the point is that one cannot say that a "messiah is fulfilled". It is an invalid structure. It simply isn't English.
No, because that isn't proper English.
Notice that you used the construction "fulfill all the criteria" with the "Messiah" being the subject of the verb. Then you say "fulfill things" again, with an object of the verb distinct from the subject, Messiah. When you then make the unfounded linguistic leap to "is the fulfillment of the Messiah" you are using non-English.1st the Messiah can fulfill all the criteria set out that must be fulfilled, then the Messiah has to fulfill things himself to prove he is the Messiah, and lastly the person qualifying as fulfilling all these things is the fulfillment of the Messiah.
The topic was on have the Rabbinic Jews lost sight of their own theology...
See this one word is where the issue lies, people's own expectations of the Messiah...
The Messiah is a king who is prophesied to come, there are many specifications that must be fulfilled for them to be the right one, proving they are, who they say they are....
Thus there is a whole Messianic concept that is fulfilled.
'because it isn't correct English.'
rosends
Well-Known Member
No, this current subthread came up because the statement was made in post 77 regarding what you call "the fulfillment of the messiah" and Tumah responded in 78 that that construction is not logical.
Now a concept is fulfilled? You play fast and loose with English as well as Hebrew.Thus there is a whole Messianic concept that is fulfilled.
I'm not sure what your point is with this comment.'because it isn't correct English.'
Saying 'it isn't proper English', is seen as a common way to phrase the sentence, and 'isn't correct grammar'.
Fulfill: carry out (a duty or role) as required, promised, or expected.
satisfy or meet (a requirement, condition, or need).
rosends
Well-Known Member
By whom? Proper English Versus Slang
And? Clearly you don't understand that this definition doesn't explain how one "fulfills a concept". Can a concept be carried out? Can a concept be met? No.