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Featured Do the Jews Have a God?

Discussion in 'General Religious Debates' started by wizanda, Apr 19, 2017.

  1. wizanda

    wizanda Hairy doesn't mean scary;beard doesn't mean weird
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    If Yeshua according to the Tanakh is physically David with the spirit of the Lord (YHVH) upon him, and the Jews don't accept the fulfillment of these prophecies, they virtually no longer accept the Messiah, David, Salvation (Yeshua), and YHVH.

    Now we could say the Jews are still determined that they should only worship the God Most High (El Elyon); which is a good statement to make.... The only issue with this is the Most High has no image, and YHVH Elohim appears multiple times in human form.

    Thus when YHVH is an Elohim, which from its descriptions within the Tanakh is an Arch-Angel/Avatar/Elder, who came as Yeshua; then what or who do they now worship? :confused: :innocent:
     
  2. Rival

    Rival Noahide
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    They worship G-d.
     
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  3. wizanda

    wizanda Hairy doesn't mean scary;beard doesn't mean weird
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    Which G-d tho?

    If Yeshua is YHVH....They refuse him as their Lord.

    El and YHVH Elohim are the same in their understanding; so there isn't even another understanding of the God Most High (El Elyon) with a council of Elohim, like the 1st temple period Jews followed. :innocent:
     
  4. Rival

    Rival Noahide
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    In your theology, it's a conundrum. In ours/theirs, it's simple.
     
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  5. Tumah

    Tumah Well-Known Member

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    I'll be frank with you for just a second:
    I don't think anyone except for you cares about your experiences or NDE's.

    And I don't mean that in a bad way!
    I just mean that you and your experiences are worthless to Jews.

    Don't take that the wrong way!
    Its just that we don't really care.
    No really. We don't.
     
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  6. jonathan180iq

    jonathan180iq Well-Known Member

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    Pay attention to the question you are asking.

    Think about it for just a second...

    ...

    .....

    Now what if he isn't any of those things?

    Is it at all possible that you're guilty of what you are accusing the Jews of?
     
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  7. Yohanan ben Yaaqov

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    WHAT? Where would anyone even begin to come up with such a bizarre load of nonsense?
    Which “prophecies” are you referring to? You haven’t mentioned any.
    The word – מָשִׁיחַ mashiyaḥ means “something smeared with oil,” nothing more and nothing less. When used in reference to any King it refers specifically to his forehead being smeared with the Oil of Holy Anointment by a confirmed Prophet. Shaʾul was “the messiah,” David was “the messiah,” Sh’lomoh was “the messiah,” R’ḥav’am was “the messiah,” etc. and so on.

    There is no such word as “yeshua” in the Hebrew language, such a word would have to be spelt – יֶשׁוּעַ yeshuaʿ, and no such word exists. The Hebrew word which translates to “rescue from physical harm or danger” is the Feminine Noun – יְשׁוּעָה y’shuʿah, which has never been a name, let alone a masculine name.
    This is simply a bald faced lie. The God of Israel has never appeared in human form, anywhere at any time, ever. It simply cannot happen. God cannot be anything less than, or other than God. God is infinite and humans are finite. God is without limitations and humans have many limitations. In order to “appear in human form” God would have to limit himself; in which case He would no longer be God, and this cannot happen.
     
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  8. wizanda

    wizanda Hairy doesn't mean scary;beard doesn't mean weird
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    Similar to what was said to the prophets, and look what happened after... Understandably it is easier to attack the messenger, than deal with or answer the original question.
    Can systematically show across the Tanakh what has been stated, based on numerous specifications fitting exactly.
    Excellent question, and thank you for questioning it... I'm completely open to being shown any new information, any better way of comprehension; yet based on all evidence the case fits. :innocent:
    Within The Tanakh, and can post all the scriptures substantiating the ideas.

    Isaiah 11:1-2 A shoot will come out of the stock of Jesse, and a branch out of his roots will bear fruit. (2) Yahweh’s Spirit will rest on him: the spirit of wisdom and understanding, the spirit of counsel and might, the spirit of knowledge and of the fear of Yahweh.
    This is a huge question, we're talking a large percentage of the prophets are about this...

    So for instance, the real reason for the diaspora according to the prophets, the shepherds of the flock were murdering prophets, and refusing correction by God; thus God sent his own Messiah as explained in Zechariah 11, Ezekiel 1-7, Jeremiah 25, Daniel 9... The shepherds than kill the Messiah, and the flock is scattered because of this.

    What I've heard from Jews about their reasons for the diaspora, have nothing to do with the contexts explained in the Tanakh, and instead the shepherds have tried to maintain control by lying to the flock; thus God shall remove them, and keep out of the flock those whom are worthwhile (Ezekiel 34, Jeremiah 23).
    Within Rabbinic thinking there is the concept of "the Messiah", which is a specific king who shall reign in the Messianic age....

    Yet simply within the Tanakh, this can be shown with numerous prophecies that indicate the same events in much more detail.
    Each of you puts this same argument forward..... First off his full name is Yehoshua as we find in Zechariah 3 about him specifically.

    Then symbolically it isn't just a name, so the idea of it needing to be one is missing the point.

    Isaiah 52:10 Yahweh has made bare his holy arm in the eyes of all the nations; and all the ends of the earth have seen the salvation of our God (Yeshuat Eloheinu).

    Psalms 98:1-3 A Psalm. Sing to Yahweh a new song, for he has done marvelous things! His right hand, and his holy arm, have worked salvation for him. (2) Yahweh has made known his salvation. He has openly shown his righteousness in the sight of the nations. (3) He has remembered his loving kindness and his faithfulness toward the house of Israel. All the ends of the earth have seen the salvation of our God (Yeshuat Eloheinu).


    Thus we're seeing a manifestation from the Lord....Yeshua is also said to have been a common shortened version of his full name Yehoshua.
    Genesis 3:8 YHVH walks.
    Genesis 18 he eats with Abraham.
    Exodus 33:20 he has a face, and a back.

    See this is what i mean about invented theology, the book says one thing, and since coming back from Babylon there appears to be confusion taught.

    As saying previously the God Most High (El Elyon) is without form; yet even the name Yah-havah Elohim means the Lord to (physically) Become. :innocent:
     
  9. CogentPhilosopher

    CogentPhilosopher Philosophy Student

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    1) Click-bait.....Really?

    2) Yeshua did not fulfill all of the Messiah prophecies. I would recommend asking one of the fine Jews on this site about this.

    3) Elohim, Jehovah, and Yahweh are all just names for the same deity in Jewish theology.
     
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  10. Rival

    Rival Noahide
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    Trust me, they've all been asked - several times- and regardless of how well-given the explanations are it always devolves into some non-Jew saying he can read or understand Hebrew better than the Jews on here and the Jews are synagogue of satan anyway so who cares.
     
    #10 Rival, Apr 19, 2017
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  11. fantome profane

    fantome profane quintessence of dust
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    Why would anyone think that the Tanakh says anything at all like this?
     
    #11 fantome profane, Apr 19, 2017
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  12. wizanda

    wizanda Hairy doesn't mean scary;beard doesn't mean weird
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    Rofl.... OK i admit, this is fishing for the souls of men; yet in a positive sense...

    My name is a 'helper of man' (alexander), and as a fish (zander) that can keep the numbers down, instead trying to help move the shoal with force. :p
    Have already asked, found many false equivocations, to substantiate faulty bias logic...Spent over 13 years talking with all religions.

    If we look at the prophecies within the Tanakh to set what is going to take place, and not make up what our religious presupposition has taught us...

    Then Yeshua's fulfillment of prophecy are all pre-requirements to the Messianic age, and as such a proof according to the Tanakh that he is worthy.

    Take into account that the whole world shall know God in the Messianic age, how do you systematically eliminate all those not worthy, who mock and scoff?

    Make something that is highly intelligent, appear silly on the outside.

    Which is why it is called a Marvelous Work, and why the book is sealed to many who think themselves wise.
    There is no J in Hebrew; the Y is more guttural, like we get in some Germanic languages.

    Elohim means their God, when it is plural for one; which is where the error comes from, possibly even going as far back to when we came back from the Babylonian Exile.

    El is single (God), Elohim is plural Gods; we find HaElohim 'The Gods' in many places...

    Personally think it makes more sense to have Elohim as Avatars, Arch Angels, Elders, etc, as it is far more logical then based on what is within the text.

    Which is where academics are challenging what the Rabbinic Jews have been stating, based on the overall historical evidence.
    Isaiah 11:1-2 A shoot will come out of the stock of Jesse, and a branch out of his roots will bear fruit. (2) Yahweh’s Spirit will rest on him: the spirit of wisdom and understanding, the spirit of counsel and might, the spirit of knowledge and of the fear of Yahweh.

    This is to summarize it in a line; yet there are prophecies stating that David shall be the Messiah to reign in multiple places...

    Yeshua also cross references as fulfilling these specifically, and meeting the requirements for all other criteria set out. :innocent:
     
    #12 wizanda, Apr 19, 2017
    Last edited: Apr 19, 2017
  13. fantome profane

    fantome profane quintessence of dust
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    But the point I am making is that the Tanakh does not say Yeshua fulfilled any of this. You say that, the Tanakh does not. The Tanakh does not say Jesus was from the house of David, or the "stock of Jesse" or anything like that.
     
  14. rosends

    rosends Well-Known Member

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    Exactly. This is totally true...IF.

    But since it isn't and the "if" condition is not fulfilled, nothing you conclude actually follows. So to answer the thread's title, "yes."

    You're welcome.:)
     
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  15. wizanda

    wizanda Hairy doesn't mean scary;beard doesn't mean weird
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    The Tanakh says the person who is Messiah is from the House of David, and thus the Branch is a metaphor for the Messiah.

    As for it being Yeshua when we correctly identify that Yeshua is the servant referenced in Isaiah 53, specified by Isaiah 52:10 with the symbolic reference at the end of it, 'Yeshuat Eloheinu (salvation from our God).'..

    Isaiah 52:14 includes an additional yod, on the word blemished, which is why the context of Isaiah 53 has been understood to be specifically about the Messiah.

    This is a start, the context of Isaiah 53 is then interwoven across the rest of prophecy, and can only add up the correct way or it makes very little sense.

    Here is the Taunting Riddle explaining some of the contexts and fulfillments; which are specifically only fulfilled by someone who divorced Israel before the 2nd temple destruction for 30 pieces of silver paid, and put into the potters-field.
    Don't mind giving a 99% probability, even when certain of the belief; as anything is possible, and new information could come along, that breaks the old understanding. :innocent:
     
  16. fantome profane

    fantome profane quintessence of dust
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    I don't know if you are really being obtuse or you are deliberately missing my point. The point is that I don't know that any of these things happened, and it is certain that the Tanakh does not say that any of these things happened in the life of Jesus. The Tanakh does not mention Jesus. The New Testament might say that these things were fulfilled, but the Tanakh does not say Jesus fulfilled any of them. I can tell you that I am from the house of David, that doesn't make it true. And the Tanakh does not say that I am from the house of David, it does not say that you are from the house of David, and it does not say that Jesus is from the house of David.

    If you mean to say that the Gospels say that Jesus fulfilled, then say that. (and we can even debate that). But don't say that the Tanakh says Jesus fulfilled anything, because clearly it doesn't say that.
     
  17. rosends

    rosends Well-Known Member

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    The branch is a reference to a messiah/king. That's fine.
    No, see, that's where you INcorrectly make that identification. Simply deciding that because the word for "salvation of" is used this is a reference to someone whose name you believe derives from the word for "salvation" is an error on your part. File this under the "if" you started with. Since it fails, the rest fails. ;)
    Not sure what point you are making. The verse 52:14 actually has one Yod in it in the word alecha, "on you" and that's not extra and one on "bnei" "sons of" and it isn't extra. That's how the word is spelled.

    כַּאֲשֶׁר שָׁמְמוּ עָלֶיךָ רַבִּים כֵּן מִשְׁחַת מֵאִישׁ מַרְאֵהוּ וְתֹאֲרוֹ מִבְּנֵי אָדָם:
    No, that is neither the only, nor even A correct way. It makes plenty of sense.
    The IF you posit doesn't approach any level of probability, let alone 99%. So I'm pretty comfy with the understanding I have, but thanks.:)
     
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  18. Tumah

    Tumah Well-Known Member

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    The difference between a prophet and some anonymous random on the internet suffering from delusions of grandeur -and perhaps other things- cannot be understated.

    There is no message, dont you see? Your OP is predicated on a number of givens that are simply not factual.

    Since the sky is made out of pizza why isn't there oily cheese and sauce dripping on us all the time? That's your OP.

    We've spoken. I've read your "work". It doesn't sound more sane the longer I let it ruminate.
     
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  19. Tumah

    Tumah Well-Known Member

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    I've had this conversation with him. He didn't get it then either...
     
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  20. rosends

    rosends Well-Known Member

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    As have I, but this time, I am trying while including emojis. Maybe that will do it.
     
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