Do shamans and other people having religious experiences have a potential mental disorder?

[Bear Wild]

Robert Sapolsky wrote a wonder book on neuroscience called Behave. It is an excellent introduction to neuroscience. I recently found and article he had written the past that was a little more controversial on the origins of schizophrenia and the schizotypal and this is a small section of it.



“What is schizotypal? It's a more subtle version of schizophrenia. This is not somebody who's completely socially crippled; they're just solitary, detached: these are the lighthouse keepers, the projectionists in the movie theaters. These are not people who are thought-disordered to the point of being completely nonfunctional; these are people who just believe in kinda strange stuff. They are into their Star Trek conventions. They're into their astrology, they're into their telepathy and their paranormal beliefs, they're into — and you can see now where I'm heading — very, very literal, concrete interpretations of religious events.”



Shamanism is a religious/spiritual phenomenon attributed to a shaman who can achieve various powers through trance or ecstatic religious experiences. The term was appropriated from the Tungus people of Siberia but that is another story. For this question we need to look at the fact that they claim the enter the spirit world and communicate with the spirits and numinous entities beyond the observable realm in the trance-like states.

• So does this mean that Shamans have a metal disorder that is either schizotypal or blending into schizophrenia?
• Are religious people who are not shaman but have mystical ore deeply religious experiences have a potential mental disorder bordering on schizophrenia?
• Was Carl Jung correct that people who develop schizophrenia just not prepared for there ego to dive into the ocean of the unconscious and become lost while those with religious experiences better prepared and do not develop a disorder.
• Or is this just an over rational mind trying to explain away the spiritual because they do not want it to exist.

I personally disagree with him but other Ideas welcome.

Belief and Biology by Robert Sapolsky (April 2003) - Freedom From Religion Foundation

 

[☆Dreamwind☆]

Nope. And I also refuse to take shrinks seriously on anything. They're scam artists and snake oil salesmen anyway.

 

[SalixIncendium]

Are religious people who are not shaman but have mystical ore deeply religious experiences have a potential mental disorder bordering on schizophrenia?

No.

 

[Debater Slayer]

Nope. And I also refuse to take shrinks seriously on anything. They're scam artists and snake oil salesmen anyway.

Therapy has essentially saved my life. I don't doubt that, being a field of medicine without the ability to issue diagnoses using physical tests (e.g., X-rays and MRIs), it has significant room for improvement, but I appreciate that it has still saved many lives.

As for the thread question, no, I don't believe that shamanism or mystical experiences are necessarily indicative of a psychological disorder, although a shaman or mystic, like any other human, may have such an issue. I believe shamanistic and mystical experiences almost certainly involve a lot of factors that are unrelated to mental disorders, though, such as culture, upbringing, meditative practices, religious beliefs, etc. There is much we don't understand about the human brain and the various experiences it can have.

 

[☆Dreamwind☆]

Therapy has essentially saved my life. I don't doubt that, being a field of medicine without the ability to issue diagnoses using physical tests (e.g., X-rays and MRIs), it has significant room for improvement, but I appreciate that it has still saved many lives.

As for the thread question, no, I don't believe that shamanism is necessarily indicative of a psychological disorder, although a shaman, like any other human, may have such an issue. I believe shamanistic experiences may involve a lot of factors that are unrelated to mental disorders, though, such as culture, upbringing, meditative practices, religious beliefs, etc. There is much we don't understand about the human brain and the various experiences it can have.

And it screws millions of people over against their will, but that's a discussion for a different thread.

 

[Debater Slayer]

No.

On @SalixIncendium's behalf, I'll complete his post to say this: sorry for the verbose answer.

 

[Viker]

No.

As always, beating me to it. I have to face it. I'm kinda slow.

 

[Debater Slayer]

As always, beating me to it. I have to face it. I'm kinda slow.

You need to ride a faster bike when navigating RF threads. @SalixIncendium just breezes across Religious Debates and General Debates in his Harley.

 

[Viker]

You need to ride a faster bike when navigating RF threads. @SalixIncendium just breezes across Religious Debates and General Debates in his Harley.

At least when I show up (catch up) it's with style and a lot of noise.

 

[Link]

Nope. And I also refuse to take shrinks seriously on anything. They're scam artists and snake oil salesmen anyway.

This is not true. They don't say these things in general and work with a person with their beliefs.

The problem is when something causes dysfunctionality and they try to bring functionality into a person's life, whether social, work, family, how to talk without annoying people, etc.

They mostly try to bring people with schizophrenia esteem up. If anything, they are a bit too nice.

 

[Link]

Too much dopamine is a thing. That's all that madness amounts to, level up that level to not too much (meds needed), and they can function over time (hard at first, since negative symptoms amplified often by meds). It just takes a bit of fixing and therapists help in that regard.

It can even be a gift.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Robert Sapolsky wrote a wonder book on neuroscience called Behave. It is an excellent introduction to neuroscience. I recently found and article he had written the past that was a little more controversial on the origins of schizophrenia and the schizotypal and this is a small section of it.



“What is schizotypal? It's a more subtle version of schizophrenia. This is not somebody who's completely socially crippled; they're just solitary, detached: these are the lighthouse keepers, the projectionists in the movie theaters. These are not people who are thought-disordered to the point of being completely nonfunctional; these are people who just believe in kinda strange stuff. They are into their Star Trek conventions. They're into their astrology, they're into their telepathy and their paranormal beliefs, they're into — and you can see now where I'm heading — very, very literal, concrete interpretations of religious events.”



Shamanism is a religious/spiritual phenomenon attributed to a shaman who can achieve various powers through trance or ecstatic religious experiences. The term was appropriated from the Tungus people of Siberia but that is another story. For this question we need to look at the fact that they claim the enter the spirit world and communicate with the spirits and numinous entities beyond the observable realm in the trance-like states.

• So does this mean that Shamans have a metal disorder that is either schizotypal or blending into schizophrenia?
• Are religious people who are not shaman but have mystical ore deeply religious experiences have a potential mental disorder bordering on schizophrenia?
• Was Carl Jung correct that people who develop schizophrenia just not prepared for there ego to dive into the ocean of the unconscious and become lost while those with religious experiences better prepared and do not develop a disorder.
• Or is this just an over rational mind trying to explain away the spiritual because they do not want it to exist.

I personally disagree with him but other Ideas welcome.

Belief and Biology by Robert Sapolsky (April 2003) - Freedom From Religion Foundation

I think that "ecstatic religious experiences" are indicative of a malfunctioning brain, but this doesn't necessarily mean mental illness.

IMO, a lot of people induce a brain state that produces "religious experiences" with physiological stress (e.g. a sweat lodge, prolonged meditation, certain breathing techniques) or chemicals (i.e. "entheogenic" drugs).

I'm sure that there are some "shamans" who experience mental illness, but I think a lot are mentally healthy people who are just good at inducing an altered state.

 

[Heyo]

Robert Sapolsky wrote a wonder book on neuroscience called Behave. It is an excellent introduction to neuroscience. I recently found and article he had written the past that was a little more controversial on the origins of schizophrenia and the schizotypal and this is a small section of it.



“What is schizotypal? It's a more subtle version of schizophrenia. This is not somebody who's completely socially crippled; they're just solitary, detached: these are the lighthouse keepers, the projectionists in the movie theaters. These are not people who are thought-disordered to the point of being completely nonfunctional; these are people who just believe in kinda strange stuff. They are into their Star Trek conventions. They're into their astrology, they're into their telepathy and their paranormal beliefs, they're into — and you can see now where I'm heading — very, very literal, concrete interpretations of religious events.”



Shamanism is a religious/spiritual phenomenon attributed to a shaman who can achieve various powers through trance or ecstatic religious experiences. The term was appropriated from the Tungus people of Siberia but that is another story. For this question we need to look at the fact that they claim the enter the spirit world and communicate with the spirits and numinous entities beyond the observable realm in the trance-like states.

• So does this mean that Shamans have a metal disorder that is either schizotypal or blending into schizophrenia?
• Are religious people who are not shaman but have mystical ore deeply religious experiences have a potential mental disorder bordering on schizophrenia?
• Was Carl Jung correct that people who develop schizophrenia just not prepared for there ego to dive into the ocean of the unconscious and become lost while those with religious experiences better prepared and do not develop a disorder.
• Or is this just an over rational mind trying to explain away the spiritual because they do not want it to exist.

I personally disagree with him but other Ideas welcome.

Belief and Biology by Robert Sapolsky (April 2003) - Freedom From Religion Foundation

The shaman enters freely into the altered state of mind, often through the use of drugs or exhausting physical rituals. That is a totally different thing to people whose brain snaps into such a state randomly. The later may be a mental disorder, the former not.

 

[Bear Wild]

The shaman enters freely into the altered state of mind, often through the use of drugs or exhausting physical rituals. That is a totally different thing to people whose brain snaps into such a state randomly. The later may be a mental disorder, the former not.

There are now many scientific articles trying to equate religious experiences with that of risk of mental illness including schizophrenia and another with bipolar disorder. They are using it to draw a link with the development and sustainability of schizophrenia in a population by connecting with individual that participate in more spiritual practices. They all don't say it but there becomes the risk of seeing spiritual practices as a defect rather than as a gift for the individual as it was seen in the past and with many non western cultures. This is were I feel people can misuse scientific ideas against people participating in spiritual activates. Richard Dawkins is another example of this type of thinking, but is Dawkins correct or does he have something missing in his brain that does not allow him to connect to the spiritual world.

 

[sun rise]

Are religious people who are not shaman but have mystical ore deeply religious experiences have a potential mental disorder bordering on schizophrenia?

Some do and some don't. Meher Baba drew that distinction:

 

[Twilight Hue]

Robert Sapolsky wrote a wonder book on neuroscience called Behave. It is an excellent introduction to neuroscience. I recently found and article he had written the past that was a little more controversial on the origins of schizophrenia and the schizotypal and this is a small section of it.



“What is schizotypal? It's a more subtle version of schizophrenia. This is not somebody who's completely socially crippled; they're just solitary, detached: these are the lighthouse keepers, the projectionists in the movie theaters. These are not people who are thought-disordered to the point of being completely nonfunctional; these are people who just believe in kinda strange stuff. They are into their Star Trek conventions. They're into their astrology, they're into their telepathy and their paranormal beliefs, they're into — and you can see now where I'm heading — very, very literal, concrete interpretations of religious events.”



Shamanism is a religious/spiritual phenomenon attributed to a shaman who can achieve various powers through trance or ecstatic religious experiences. The term was appropriated from the Tungus people of Siberia but that is another story. For this question we need to look at the fact that they claim the enter the spirit world and communicate with the spirits and numinous entities beyond the observable realm in the trance-like states.

• So does this mean that Shamans have a metal disorder that is either schizotypal or blending into schizophrenia?
• Are religious people who are not shaman but have mystical ore deeply religious experiences have a potential mental disorder bordering on schizophrenia?
• Was Carl Jung correct that people who develop schizophrenia just not prepared for there ego to dive into the ocean of the unconscious and become lost while those with religious experiences better prepared and do not develop a disorder.
• Or is this just an over rational mind trying to explain away the spiritual because they do not want it to exist.

I personally disagree with him but other Ideas welcome.

Belief and Biology by Robert Sapolsky (April 2003) - Freedom From Religion Foundation

No not necessarily. Some might be mentally ill. Others might have experiences and the human brain and its inefficiencies ought to be taken into consideration or otherwise those experiences need to be verified and proven if any of it is to be taken seriously.

 

[Quintessence]

Setting aside my personal objections to the pathologizing of interactions with the otherworlds, I'd observe that modern, domesticated culture in general has a tendency to pathologize a lot of things more than it probably ought. I could point to any number of cultural trends that probably contribute to this.

Consumerism - particularly capitalism with its emphasis on marketing products for sale - has every reason to convince otherwise well off individuals that there's something wrong with them in order to sell them the solution to their fabricated ails. ​

​

Domestication - the extremely comfortable lives humans now live compared to their ancestors - has all but removed the challenges of survival on the day-to-day giving us time to make up what would otherwise be trivial or non-existent "problems" or issues. ​

​

Control - the mythology that humans are at the top or center of everything - drives an obsession to shape the universe to personal desires and destroy, shut down, or modify anything we happen to not like or decree a problem or aberrant. ​

What's interesting is that the role of the walker between the worlds stands in pretty stark opposition to modern, domesticated human culture. The very idea and role of it doesn't fit within the assumptions it makes. It's a space that's about relationships between humans and the greater-than-human, where reciprocity is key and showing respect is paramount. It's a space where one exists outside of the boundaries of human society in a way that can be threatening to your tribe if the importance of this role is not respected and accepted. If anything, it'd be shocking if it wasn't pathologized. I expect to be told to see a therapist if I'm stupid enough to tell certain others about my experiences with the otherworlds and the spirits of the land. They should likewise expect me to tell them to stuff it. I've never fit in with human society and I never will. It's just who and what I am. And I curse being born into a culture for which there was not a nurturing environment to support people like me. Modern, domesticated humans have lost much by denying their shamans.

 

[Koldo]

Robert Sapolsky wrote a wonder book on neuroscience called Behave. It is an excellent introduction to neuroscience. I recently found and article he had written the past that was a little more controversial on the origins of schizophrenia and the schizotypal and this is a small section of it.



“What is schizotypal? It's a more subtle version of schizophrenia. This is not somebody who's completely socially crippled; they're just solitary, detached: these are the lighthouse keepers, the projectionists in the movie theaters. These are not people who are thought-disordered to the point of being completely nonfunctional; these are people who just believe in kinda strange stuff. They are into their Star Trek conventions. They're into their astrology, they're into their telepathy and their paranormal beliefs, they're into — and you can see now where I'm heading — very, very literal, concrete interpretations of religious events.”



Shamanism is a religious/spiritual phenomenon attributed to a shaman who can achieve various powers through trance or ecstatic religious experiences. The term was appropriated from the Tungus people of Siberia but that is another story. For this question we need to look at the fact that they claim the enter the spirit world and communicate with the spirits and numinous entities beyond the observable realm in the trance-like states.

• So does this mean that Shamans have a metal disorder that is either schizotypal or blending into schizophrenia?
• Are religious people who are not shaman but have mystical ore deeply religious experiences have a potential mental disorder bordering on schizophrenia?
• Was Carl Jung correct that people who develop schizophrenia just not prepared for there ego to dive into the ocean of the unconscious and become lost while those with religious experiences better prepared and do not develop a disorder.
• Or is this just an over rational mind trying to explain away the spiritual because they do not want it to exist.

I personally disagree with him but other Ideas welcome.

Belief and Biology by Robert Sapolsky (April 2003) - Freedom From Religion Foundation

How specific are you being with your terminology? What counts as a shaman? Would you say that a spirit medium is a shaman?

As far as spirit mediums go, yes, it is definitely proper to think on terms of mental disorders (when they are not con artists).

 

[Muffled]

Nope. And I also refuse to take shrinks seriously on anything. They're scam artists and snake oil salesmen anyway.

You would think studying the mind as long as they have they would actually know something but it seems they have a blind spot when it comes to spirituality.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Setting aside my personal objections to the pathologizing of interactions with the otherworlds, I'd observe that modern, domesticated culture in general has a tendency to pathologize a lot of things more than it probably ought. I could point to any number of cultural trends that probably contribute to this.

Consumerism - particularly capitalism with its emphasis on marketing products for sale - has every reason to convince otherwise well off individuals that there's something wrong with them in order to sell them the solution to their fabricated ails. ​

​

Domestication - the extremely comfortable lives humans now live compared to their ancestors - has all but removed the challenges of survival on the day-to-day giving us time to make up what would otherwise be trivial or non-existent "problems" or issues. ​

​

Control - the mythology that humans are at the top or center of everything - drives an obsession to shape the universe to personal desires and destroy, shut down, or modify anything we happen to not like or decree a problem or aberrant. ​

There's also:

Knowledge - we just know how things work better now. For instance, a few centuries ago, when presented with people who claimed to speak with God, we may not have had the tools to identify ergot poisoning or understand its effects, but now we do.

There's a lot of "God of the gaps" stuff going on with so-called mystical experiences.