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Do animals grieve?

siti

Well-Known Member
In another thread this off-topic topic came up. Of course we do not see animals performing elaborate funeral rites as humans do but these are really just well-developed community-, language- and technology-based responses to death that we would expect to observe in humans much more than other animals. This is a point that anthropologist Barbara King makes in her 2013 book How Animals Grieve. Here is her own precis of the book from Animal Sentience 2016.004.

King looks at the question from a behavioral point of view and finds plenty of evidence of 'mourning' and 'grief' in the animal world. But is there also a deeper, more fundamental way in which grief and separation or bereavement anxiety are felt similarly in animals as well as humans? This 2008 study found that a particular neurotransmitter - corticotropin-releasing factor (CRF) - was present at elevated levels in prairie voles when separated from their mates and accompanied by stress-coping behavioral responses which suggests that the loss of the partner was "aversive" to the voles just as we know it is for humans.

And here is another study that found, according to the abstract,

"... that primary-process emotional feelings are organized within primitive subcortical regions of the brain that are anatomically, neurochemically, and functionally homologous in all mammals that have been studied."

These "emotional feelings" include the grief response - and the key point is that they are "functionally homologous" and involve the "primitive subcortical regions of the brain" in all mammals that have been studied. That is to say that the same neurotransmitters light up the same parts of the brain in other animals as they do in humans in response to grief. For example, the paper gives a pictorial comparison of the "sadness" circuits in the human and guinea pig brains:

DialoguesClinNeurosci-12-533-g001.jpg


The author of both of these papers both make the point that understanding animal grief is important from a scientific and medical point of view because if we can understand the mechanism by which these emotional 'tools' (such as grief and anxiety) bequeathed to us by our evolutionary ancestors really work, we have a safe means of developing new ways to alleviate the sometimes debilitating burden of grief.

Animals do, it seems clear, grieve at the loss of loved ones and although there are very clear and obvious differences in the ways that humans, compared to other animals, express that grief outwardly - under the skin we are - it seems - much more closely related to our evolutionary forebears than we are accustomed to think.

Comments and criticism please...
 
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siti

Well-Known Member
I thought that animals grieving was common knowledge by now. The amount of times I've seen it in documentaries over the years.

Apparently some people still don't believe things even when they have been seen numerous times in documentaries...go figure! :shrug:
 

Callisto

Hellenismos, BTW
Sure they grieve and even know empathy. I've known dogs to miss owners who have passed away. I recently lost 2 of my 3 pets within a few months of each other. The 3rd has done things he normally wouldn't do, cries for my attention, stays with me more often and plays with toys he didn't use much but one of the others loved.

One of the most moving examples I heard of is from the 1980s of a chimpanzee named Washoe who, like Coco the gorilla, was taught sign language. One of her caretakers "disappeared" for several weeks and when the woman came back, the chimp gave her the cold shoulder for abandoning her (she had been acquired by the researchers after her mother was killed). The researcher signed that she'd left because her baby had died (miscarriage) and in response, Washoe looked dejected and then signed "I cry" to show she was sorry.
 

bobhikes

Nondetermined
Premium Member
Sure they grieve and even know empathy. I've known dogs to miss owners who have passed away. I recently lost 2 of my 3 pets within a few months of each other. The 3rd has done things he normally wouldn't do, cries for my attention, stays with me more often and plays with toys he didn't use much but one of the others loved.

One of the most moving examples I heard of is from the 1980s of a chimpanzee named Washoe who, like Coco the gorilla, was taught sign language. One of her caretakers "disappeared" for several weeks and when the woman came back, the chimp gave her the cold shoulder for abandoning her (she had been acquired by the researchers after her mother was killed). The researcher signed that she'd left because her baby had died (miscarriage) and in response, Washoe looked dejected and then signed "I cry" to show she was sorry.

If that is true that is incredible do you have a source?
 

lewisnotmiller

Grand Hat
Staff member
Premium Member
Interesting!

Completely biased and anecdotal, but my 2 dogs have both shown physical signs of grieving, one through the loss of his previous owner (stress related hair loss) and the other in the loss of his doggy-buddy, including loss of appetite, and general fretting, lack of playfulness, increased anxiety when being left alone/outside.

Explaining why he is grieving, and exactly what it means to him is hard, obviously. So I found the OP interesting.
 

Shadow Wolf

Certified People sTabber
From what I've seen in documentaries, elephants and some other primates most definitely display grieving and mourning for their dead. From what I've seen in real life, dogs definitely display mourning and anxiety. Cats also seem to display some sort of emotion when they notice someone is missing.
 

Callisto

Hellenismos, BTW
If that is true that is incredible do you have a source?

I don't mind looking up and posting sources, and I frequently do, when the topic is unfamiliar and/or obscure. But this is one of those topics one can readily find for themselves with a quick internet search.

I saw the story on a PBS documentary some 2 decades ago and don't recall the name of it. As for research beyond the internet, I suggest looking up Roger Fouts who has written about it. He too was a primate researcher.
 

SabahTheLoner

Master of the Art of Couch Potato Cuddles
From what I've seen in documentaries, elephants and some other primates most definitely display grieving and mourning for their dead. From what I've seen in real life, dogs definitely display mourning and anxiety. Cats also seem to display some sort of emotion when they notice someone is missing.

Elephants are also known to be compassionate to orphans. If a mother dies and her baby lives, the herd will grieve the dead mother for a rather long period of time (elephant herds have been known to grieve days, on some accounts) and then another female elephant will take in the child as if it was her own. This happens even if the mother and calf ended up being left behind and the mother didn't make it, and the herd that found them wasn't the original one. They understand death enough to know it is damaging to others.

Cats can get rather upset in many different ways when they notice someone has been gone for several hours, or more than usual at the least. My family has six and they are all their own creatures. Some will just want to cuddle when you come back, and the others will be mad. They'll do things like demand food when they usually aren't hungry. (Cats can binge eat when they get upset)

Even though cats and elephants behave to the same situation differently for different reasons, it does show that many creatures do feel something like sadness or hurt at the least if someone isn't around. I think it's amazing elephants, dolphins, whales and many primates display high intelligence for concepts man uses to credit himself as different from the rest of the animal kingdom. And many animals show emotions just as complex and justified as human emotions. To me it tells us that humans aren't as separate from the other animals after all. If anything several of them are our close cousins in intelligence.
 

shunyadragon

shunyadragon
Premium Member
From what I've seen in documentaries, elephants and some other primates most definitely display grieving and mourning for their dead. From what I've seen in real life, dogs definitely display mourning and anxiety. Cats also seem to display some sort of emotion when they notice someone is missing.

The only point I question is cats. The seem to more have a sense of anxiety at a loose of their dependent relationship.
 

Shadow Wolf

Certified People sTabber
The only point I question is cats. The seem to more have a sense of anxiety at a loose of their dependent relationship.
Doesn't seem like you are questioning it since I said cats feel some sort of emotion.
I think it's amazing elephants, dolphins, whales and many primates display high intelligence for concepts man uses to credit himself as different from the rest of the animal kingdom. And many animals show emotions just as complex and justified as human emotions. To me it tells us that humans aren't as separate from the other animals after all. If anything several of them are our close cousins in intelligence.
I think it's interesting, as it almost adds a level of sacredness to the belief that all life is related and interdependent upon each other, as well as evolution for confirming this ages old belief. For all we've done to try to separate us from other animals, it's only served to uncover and confirm we more-and-more alike than ever previously imagined.
 

Deeje

Avid Bible Student
Premium Member
This was the original exchange......

Deeje said:
siti said:
How can you possibly know the depth of an animals grief?
Do you see animals holding elaborate funerals or digging graves for their deceased? Do they decorate those graves and go on mourning for years? The animals who appear to grieve the loss of a mate or family member are so rare they usually either make the news or have a movie made about them.

I have owned several dogs and cats....when their time came, it made no appreciable difference to the one left behind when the other died. Animals who live in family groups like elephants or primates, and who possess a higher intellect have a very strong bond with family members and it can often manifest itself in a grieving behavior among them. But that could be them simply adjusting instinctively to a loss in the troupe. Their maternal instincts are also very strong, so that when a baby dies, their instincts are thrown into disarray.
Animals who can form a bond with humans are more likely to manifest such behaviors.

The comments that siti is referring to was not especially about grieving, but was among a few differences noted between humans and animals.

Instinct forms a major part of animal behavior, whilst humans have their behavior motivated by conscious freedom of thought and ability to plan through the faculty of imagination. We are the only creatures who can contemplate the concept of past, present and future, so we can imagine our own demise even before it happens. Animals, for the most part, deal with death only after it happens. The grieving behaviors observed in some animals are in part, a response to alterations in their expectations. My dog is so predictable that she knows what time breakfast is, and what time to expect dinner. Her expectation, if it is not met, results in distress and a performance....scratching at the kitchen window and much noise and distress yawning. This will continue until I feed her.

Some animals are capable of forming a loving attachment that becomes a bond with the object of their affections. Separation anxiety, (seen in some animals, but not all) is a natural response to their expectations not being met. If there is a close bond between animals and humans, or animals with other animals, then the loss of the presence of that being will throw their lives into disarray. They expect to see those ones as every day life is mostly predictable for them. Break that expectation and it results in distress. The maternal instinct is particularly strong, so the loss of a baby is hard for some animals to process.

This "grief" is like ours in some ways, but human grief results because we understand that the one we have lost is not coming back. If you have seen those documentaries, you can understand how animals never forget the ones with whom they have formed a bond (Christian the lion e. g..... Or elephants or primates reunited after long periods of time.)

If it is only a separation, and the animal gets programmed to accept separation as a temporary thing, the reunion is usually a very loud and emotional thing. (e.g. We know what happens with our own pets if we have been away for some weeks, or we have see returning military service personnel reunited with their dogs after a long absence.) But if the reunion does not happen because of death, the expectation on the part of the animal never goes away. (Like the movie "Hatchi" based on a true story) Their loss is felt every day.

Human grief and animal grief can look the same, but they are not really for a number of reasons.

Since we are not animals, that is not surprising. :) This is what I have come to believe after my own personal research.
 

siti

Well-Known Member
@Deeje - I am intending to post threads about some of the other questions later - I wanted to take them separately so the threads don't get bogged down.

Anyway, in the context of this discussion I don't see how you can have both of these:

We are the only creatures who can contemplate the concept of past, present and future

The grieving behaviors observed in some animals are in part, a response to alterations in their expectations.

What is an "expectation" if not a "contemplation of the future"?

Human grief and animal grief can look the same, but they are not really for a number of reasons.
Any idea what any of those reasons might be? Or do you think it might look the same because it is a result of the same neurochemicals 'lighting up' the same parts of the brains of animals as it does in humans?
 
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BSM1

What? Me worry?
...and they can say their names, and count to ten, read street signs, sing Sinatra....geez...
 
LOL, what kind of question is this? Of course they do. You can see it in household pets when one of their own dies.

Heck, this doesn't quite qualify as grieving (the dog probably didn't know what had happened), but there's even a documented case of this one dog in Japan that seemed to ritualize its grieving and dwell on it for years. The critter was smart enough to walk to the train station to meet his owner when he got back from work. Even after the owner died, though, the dog would always go to the same spot and wait. For nine years.

Sometimes I wonder if the people who doubt these things have any experience with animals.

EDIT: My family has stray cats we feed and they breed every summer. When a queen is separated from her kittens she gets very distressed, and if I remember correctly, they seem to display sadness (as much as a cat can) when the kittens die (which happens often, on account of sickness or toms killing them).
 

siti

Well-Known Member
...and they can say their names, and count to ten, read street signs, sing Sinatra....geez...
And they can say "geez" at the end of pointless comments - and stick out their tongues as an apparently rude gesture :p
 

Deeje

Avid Bible Student
Premium Member
@Deeje - I am intending to post threads about some of the other questions later - I wanted to take them separately so the threads don't get bogged down.

Fair enough. It would have been helpful to state that at the outset though. :D

Anyway, in the context of this discussion I don't see how you can have both of these:

I believe that there is a difference between a programmed response to a situation, and one that is made using one's imagination. We can evaluate circumstances....we know when someone is away for a period of time and coming back, and when they have passed away and we will never see them again. Can you explain that to an animal? Do they know the difference?

What is an "expectation" if not a "contemplation of the future"?

My dog's expectation is a programmed response to something that happens every day. Her body clock is synced to specific time periods when she enjoys her meals. Like the dog featured in the movie "Hatchi".....the dog so looked forward to his Master's return every day at the same time that he lived in expectation of it for many years after he passed away. That time was associated with something pleasurable.
Was it possible to explain that th him? His "contemplation of the future" was reduced to the moment. Animals live in the present.....all decisions are made about the immediate future....in the moment, not contemplating future actions in an hour or a day or a week. Only we can do that.

Any idea what any of those reasons might be? Or do you think it might look the same because it is a result of the same neurochemicals 'lighting up' the same parts of the brains of animals as it does in humans?

The areas of the brain 'lighting up' may well be the result of "expectation postponed".....on the part of the animal. Animals may well appear to "grieve", but not for the same reasons that humans do. I don't think we need a degree in psychology to see that.

We are not animals....thank God! :)
 

ChristineM

"Be strong", I whispered to my coffee.
Premium Member
The only point I question is cats. The seem to more have a sense of anxiety at a loose of their dependent relationship.


We had 2 unrelated cats, one and old lady of 16, the other a young rescue cat of 4. They shared the same house for just over 2 years, not really harmoniously but they would tolerate each other. When the older on died the youngster went into a mope, would lie in a dark corner for hours then go off on a search for her the missing old girl.

After 4 months of this behaviour we decided to get a kitten to see if it would settle her down a little. They are now the best of enemies but still the older cat sometimes has a downer and goes of in search of all the old girls favorite hangouts.
 

ChristineM

"Be strong", I whispered to my coffee.
Premium Member
Fair enough. It would have been helpful to state that at the outset though. :D



I believe that there is a difference between a programmed response to a situation, and one that is made using one's imagination. We can evaluate circumstances....we know when someone is away for a period of time and coming back, and when they have passed away and we will never see them again. Can you explain that to an animal? Do they know the difference?



My dog's expectation is a programmed response to something that happens every day. Her body clock is synced to specific time periods when she enjoys her meals. Like the dog featured in the movie "Hatchi".....the dog so looked forward to his Master's return every day at the same time that he lived in expectation of it for many years after he passed away. That time was associated with something pleasurable.
Was it possible to explain that th him? His "contemplation of the future" was reduced to the moment. Animals live in the present.....all decisions are made about the immediate future....in the moment, not contemplating future actions in an hour or a day or a week. Only we can do that.



The areas of the brain 'lighting up' may well be the result of "expectation postponed".....on the part of the animal. Animals may well appear to "grieve", but not for the same reasons that humans do. I don't think we need a degree in psychology to see that.

We are not animals....thank God! :)

Actually we are animals, primate mammals
 
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