Do American Evangelicals and Fundamentalists Lack the Social Conscience of Jesus Christ?

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Your last paragraph is the wrong conclusion.

You will note that when Jesus was arrested,at least one Apostle's had a sword, and used it to defend Jesus, Christ didn't overly criticize him, He told him to put away his sword, and that if He, Christ, wanted to defend Himself, He could and would.

In the same passage, Jesus doesn't criticize Judas at all for betraying him. If, as you suggest, we should be guided by Jesus's reactions, then the implication is that Peter was worse than Judas:

Matt 26:47-55:

47 While he was still speaking, Judas, one of the twelve, arrived. With him was a large crowd armed with swords and clubs, sent by the chief priests and elders of the people. 48 (Now the betrayer had given them a sign, saying, “The one I kiss is the man. Arrest him!”) 49 Immediately he went up to Jesus and said, “Greetings, Rabbi,” and kissed him. 50 Jesus said to him, “Friend, do what you are here to do.” Then they came and took hold of Jesus and arrested him. 51 But one of those with Jesus grabbed his sword, drew it out, and struck the high priest’s slave, cutting off his ear. 52 Then Jesus said to him, “Put your sword back in its place! For all who take hold of the sword will die by the sword. 53 Or do you think that I cannot call on my Father, and that he would send me more than twelve legions of angels right now? 54 How then would the scriptures that say it must happen this way be fulfilled?”

Christ never denied one the right of self defense

Matt 5:39:

But I say to you, do not resist the evildoer.

People who are doormat Christians, use the "turn the other cheek command to justify their position, in some respects pacifism."

I reading the Bible, I discovered a number if times where people were "slapped in the face" very specific. Not struck hit, punched, but slapped.

I did some research, and discovered that slapping someone in the Roman empire was not always considered an act of violence, in many cases it was considered a sign of disdain and disrespect for another, especially if one were slapping one lower on the social scale. It was not much different than flipping the bird today.

Christ, it seems to me, was making a point about one who display's public or private hatred,disrespect etc. toward a believer.

"Turn the other cheek" is given as just one of a long list of examples to illustrate Jesus's larger point, which he tells us: "do not resist an evildoer." I'm not sure how you could get more wide-ranging or direct than that statement.

The second justification is "love your enemy"

We use a single word," love ". In Greek there are different words for love. Te word for spousal love, is different from the word for the love of the immediate family, the love for all mankind in general is AGAPE.

I do not believe agape love compels one to not defend yourself from a physical attack.

So you think that selfless love is compatible with hurting or killing someone else to protect yourself?

You forgot the third reason: faith in God.

Matt 6:25-34:


25 “Therefore I tell you, do not worry about your life, what you will eat or drink, or about your body, what you will wear. Isn’t there more to life than food and more to the body than clothing? 26 Look at the birds in the sky: They do not sow, or reap, or gather into barns, yet your heavenly Father feeds them. Aren’t you more valuable than they are? 27 And which of you by worrying can add even one hour to his life? 28 Why do you worry about clothing? Think about how the flowers of the field grow; they do not work or spin. 29 Yet I tell you that not even Solomon in all his glory was clothed like one of these! 30 And if this is how God clothes the wild grass, which is here today and tomorrow is tossed into the fire to heat the oven, won’t he clothe you even more, you people of little faith? 31 So then, don’t worry saying, ‘What will we eat?’ or ‘What will we drink?’ or ‘What will we wear?’ 32 For the unconverted pursue these things, and your heavenly Father knows that you need them. 33 But above all pursue his kingdom and righteousness, and all these things will be given to you as well. 34 So then, do not worry about tomorrow, for tomorrow will worry about itself. Today has enough trouble of its own.


What is self-defense but an extreme version of worrying about your life, or your physical body, or your posessions... i.e. the exact things that Jesus commands his followers in this passage not to worry about?

Moreso when there's planning and preparation. How can someone:

- budget for an expensive weapon and training
- get licensed (if it's a weapon that needs a license)
- buy the weapon
- get trained in the use of their weapon
- keep the weapon ready, either with them or in their home, AND
- maintain proficiency with the weapon

... if they aren't worrying about their life, or about what they will eat or drink, or about their body, or about what they will wear?

Defending onesself as a reflex: I can see how even a devout Christian could do that in a momentary lapse, but premeditatedly arming yourself? Maintaining weapons abd skills over years? Whatever that person is guarding against is something he doesn't trust God to protect him against. Self-defense preparations illustrate a lack of faith.

One Roman soldier, a leader was praised by Christ as having greater faith than all in Israel. Another was noted by him as being a believer

Paul records that the his guard when he was in prison became a believer, and that there were members of the Praetorian Guard became believers.

All of these carried swords, and all could not resign till their 25 years of service was reached. Refusal to do their duty resulted in instant execution.

Unless they deserted and weren't caught. And I'm not sure where you're getting this "25 years of service" thing from.

Living and dying by the sword was addressed to Criminals.

No, it was addressed to the Apostle Peter.

Christ was not a doormat. He was not unable to defend himself, he chose not to so prophecy could be fulfilled re the salvation of the world

We are not doormats to be mercilessly beaten and not defend ourselves.

We are not to stand about while others are attacked.

If one makes the evil choice to attack my family or me, and I cannot verbally dissuade them, I will offer the most powerful defense of which I am capable, killing them if required. I am not a doormat Christian, Christ does not expect me to be one.

The Bible says otherwise.

And if someone did attack you, what are you afraid of?

- death... i.e. transitioning to Heaven? Why fear that?
- suffering? If you believe Jesus, enduring it will earn you reward in Heaven. You'll be better off overall.
- loss of posessions? You already trust that God will provide everything you truly need... right?

What outcome are you trying to guard against?

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

@shmogie - short version:

Someone who defends themselves using deadly force against a threat to their life - or who makes preparations to do this - is saying through their actions that:

- they fear death, and
- they have no faith that anyone else - human or divine - will protect them.

I see no way to reconcile these two ideas with the teachings of Jesus as given in the Gospels.

 

[shmogie]

@shmogie - short version:

Someone who defends themselves using deadly force against a threat to their life - or who makes preparations to do this - is saying through their actions that:

- they fear death, and
- they have no faith that anyone else - human or divine - will protect them.

I see no way to reconcile these two ideas with the teachings of Jesus as given in the Gospels.

The fear of death has nothing to do with it., God has programmed us to preserve our lives, Else a Christian pilot in a plunging plane would just rely on God to save her, and stop fighting to save herself, after all, she doesn;t fear death.

God has given us morality to guide our actions. The commandment interpreted " thou shall not kill", actually says in Hebrew, "though shall not murder", not the same at all. Do you think Jesus accepted this commandment, or eliminated or changed it. ? If He changed it, He didn't say so. Murder is the UNLAWFUL killing of someone.

As a christian law enforcement officer, I knew that as Paul says, in Romans 13, I was Gods agent to defend others. In that capacity, in defending others, or myself, I might have to take the life of another. A sobering burden, and one that I thank God I did not have to fully take in 25 years, though I came very close,.

God makes it clear that we reap what we sow, that we must accept the consequences of our choices.

If someone attacks my family or me, they have made a choice, knowing that they are risking death, if I am compelled to shoot and kill them because of their choice, I am simply an instrument fulfilling the consequence of their choice, the choice was not mine,

God gives us the right of self defense. He does not compel us to defend ourselves, nor does he judge us any differently if we choose not to do so.

If we believe that God will divinely protect us, or that one of his sheepdogs will arrive in time to protect his sheep from the wolf, the choice is not condemned, but we must accept the consequence.

I know of families, including children, murdered because of this belief.

I will exercise my right of self defense, and will defend others as far as I am able. I do not fear death, it is now closer for me, I just don't want to choose it in this way.

 

[metis]

The point.......
That's very interesting.
Long blades with a pointed tip.
Later on, during the full revolution and wars certain Jewish 'guerrilla' fighters were using long bladed knives concealed in their clothing to kill Romans in crowded places. The Romans called these assassins 'sicarios' after the type of knives that they used.

Judas Iscariot may well have been a Sicario, both before and during Jesus's mission. For example, there is no Judas in the Old Testament at all, so he may well have been a 'Judah', and his last name was possibly BarSimon after his father..... but his nickname amongst his group could well have been 'Judah the dagger man' ... or Judah Sicario.

Say Judah Sicario ten times, quickly, and you've got the NT name.

I know that one of the occupations that used these knives extensively were fishermen because of fixing their nets. Travelers probably did as well for protection and for harvesting and/or cutting food along the way.

Seems that it was a Middle Eastern version of the Swiss Army Knife: "Don't leave home without it!".

 

[oldbadger]

I know that one of the occupations that used these knives extensively were fishermen because of fixing their nets. Travelers probably did as well for protection and for harvesting and/or cutting food along the way.

Seems that it was a Middle Eastern version of the Swiss Army Knife: "Don't leave home without it!".

Excellent description, I have little doubts. now that you have mentioned all of this.
It's interesting to think that nearly all of the closest disciples to Jesus were fishermen.

To save me going back in search, could you please tell me again, the name of that museum? It may have an internet address with pics.

You've caught an oldbadger's keen interest here.

Thankyou!

EDIT! EDIT! I went back for it..... Jewish Museum in Jerusalem.
I'm off to search....

 

[shmogie]

I know that one of the occupations that used these knives extensively were fishermen because of fixing their nets. Travelers probably did as well for protection and for harvesting and/or cutting food along the way.

Seems that it was a Middle Eastern version of the Swiss Army Knife: "Don't leave home without it!".

The fear of death has nothing to do with it., God has programmed us to preserve our lives, Else a Christian pilot in a plunging plane would just rely on God to save her, and stop fighting to save herself, after all, she doesn;t fear death.

God has given us morality to guide our actions. The commandment interpreted " thou shall not kill", actually says in Hebrew, "though shall not murder", not the same at all. Do you think Jesus accepted this commandment, or eliminated or changed it. ? If He changed it, He didn't say so. Murder is the UNLAWFUL killing of someone.

As a christian law enforcement officer, I knew that as Paul says, in Romans 13, I was Gods agent to defend others. In that capacity, in defending others, or myself, I might have to take the life of another. A sobering burden, and one that I thank God I did not have to fully take in 25 years, though I came very close,.

God makes it clear that we reap what we sow, that we must accept the consequences of our choices.

If someone attacks my family or me, they have made a choice, knowing that they are risking death, if I am compelled to shoot and kill them because of their choice, I am simply an instrument fulfilling the consequence of their choice, the choice was not mine,

God gives us the right of self defense. He does not compel us to defend ourselves, nor does he judge us any differently if we choose not to do so.

If we believe that God will divinely protect us, or that one of his sheepdogs will arrive in time to protect his sheep from the wolf, the choice is not condemned, but we must accept the consequence.

I know of families, including children, murdered because of this belief.

I will exercise my right of self defense, and will defend others as far as I am able. I do not fear death, it is now closer for me, I just don't want to choose it in this way.

Further, what does "do not resist the evil doer" actually mean ?

You need to explain more clearly you believe the evil doer means. Who is included within it, and excluded from it ?

 

[metis]

Further, what does "do not resist the evil doer" actually mean ?

You need to explain more clearly you believe the evil doer means. Who is included within it, and excluded from it ?

I have no idea what you're referring to that I supposedly posted.

 

[shmogie]

I have no idea what you're referring to that I supposedly posted.

Oh my, my mistake, sorry ! Right response, wrong post to respond to

 

[viole]

No, and I don't think you understand our political system. It was designed for co operation and negotiation.

We don't have that. The Democrats will defend obama care and resist any attempt to change it, it will implode.

Then, each party will blame each other for it's failure.

Then each will present a plan, one in the Democrat controlled House, one in the Republican controlled Senate.,

They will go to resolution committee, and likely will not compromise.

The Democrats have declared they will resist everything Republican, and the Republicans will not cave in.

Our Founders never imagined it this way,

If your political system entails really being against X while being totally unable to replace it with a better Y, then your political system is irrational. It should at least admit that X was not so bad after all.

So, it is to be expected that rational people cannot understand it.

And what you mean with your founders? The ones who thought that lighthouses were more useful than churches?

Maybe your founders were also rational. And that could explain your claim that they coukd have never imagined that.

Ciao

- viole

 

[Valjean]

The fear of death has nothing to do with it., God has programmed us to preserve our lives, Else a Christian pilot in a plunging plane would just rely on God to save her, and stop fighting to save herself, after all, she doesn;t fear death.

Yes, according to Christianity God has programmed us to sin, and this Earth is a proving ground, to see who can resist the lure of self preservation and worldly success, and concentrate on righteousness and deferring his treasure for Heaven.

God makes it clear that we reap what we sow, that we must accept the consequences of our choices.

Yes, and if you choose to be practical, to lay up your treasure on Earth, you will not reap eternal life.
quote]If someone attacks my family or me, they have made a choice, knowing that they are risking death, if I am compelled to shoot and kill them because of their choice, I am simply an instrument fulfilling the consequence of their choice, the choice was not mine,[/quote] OK, I can see this, like Judas being an instrument of god's plan.

God gives us the right of self defense. He does not compel us to defend ourselves, nor does he judge us any differently if we choose not to do so

Sources?

If we believe that God will divinely protect us, or that one of his sheepdogs will arrive in time to protect his sheep from the wolf, the choice is not condemned, but we must accept the consequence.

I know of families, including children, murdered because of this belief.

And thus proved their faith and secured a martyr's place in Heaven.
Christians move through the world but are not supposed to become part of it. It's only a short, refinement and testing stage.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

The fear of death has nothing to do with it., God has programmed us to preserve our lives, Else a Christian pilot in a plunging plane would just rely on God to save her, and stop fighting to save herself, after all, she doesn;t fear death.

And what would be the problem with that?

God has given us morality to guide our actions. The commandment interpreted " thou shall not kill", actually says in Hebrew, "though shall not murder", not the same at all. Do you think Jesus accepted this commandment, or eliminated or changed it. ? If He changed it, He didn't say so. Murder is the UNLAWFUL killing of someone.

The Gospels say he did change it, actually:

Matt 5:21-22:

21 “You have heard that it was said to an older generation, ‘Do not murder,’ and ‘whoever murders will be subjected to judgment.’ 22 But I say to you that anyone who is angry with a brother will be subjected to judgment. And whoever insults a brother will be brought before the council, and whoever says ‘Fool’ will be sent to fiery hell.

As a christian law enforcement officer, I knew that as Paul says, in Romans 13, I was Gods agent to defend others. In that capacity, in defending others, or myself, I might have to take the life of another. A sobering burden, and one that I thank God I did not have to fully take in 25 years, though I came very close,.

The self-described white nationslist is a cop? Great.

Creative - but dangerous - interpretation of Romans 13, spinning a passage that tells Christians to submit to authorities as they were submitting to God into something that tells you that everyone else should submit to you as if you were God, because you're in authority. Seems more than a little blasphemous by most versions of Christianity I'm familiar with.

God makes it clear that we reap what we sow, that we must accept the consequences of our choices.

And if God doesn't make someone "reap what they sow," you'll damn well do it for Him, right?

If someone attacks my family or me, they have made a choice, knowing that they are risking death, if I am compelled to shoot and kill them because of their choice, I am simply an instrument fulfilling the consequence of their choice, the choice was not mine,

Baloney. Your actions are your own responsibility. You are not "compelled" to do anything. If you decide to take a life, that's your action for you to own.

God gives us the right of self defense. He does not compel us to defend ourselves, nor does he judge us any differently if we choose not to do so.

If we believe that God will divinely protect us, or that one of his sheepdogs will arrive in time to protect his sheep from the wolf, the choice is not condemned, but we must accept the consequence.

I know of families, including children, murdered because of this belief.

And you want to save yourself or others from this fate. But what do you think that fate actually is?

If you were an atheist, I would consider acting in self-defense reasonable: life is preferable to death... but in the Christian view, physical death isn't actually death; it's the transition to something else.

Here's my understanding of what the effect of defending the life of a believing Christian with deadly force, according to mainstream Christian belief. Tell me whether you agree:

- the Christian's transition to Heaven is delayed.
- the murderer loses any hope of salvation and he is consigned to a fate worse than death in Hell.

I will exercise my right of self defense, and will defend others as far as I am able. I do not fear death, it is now closer for me, I just don't want to choose it in this way.

And that's perfectly understandable... in an atheist worldview. I might take the same approach myself, but only because I see death as negative (and the death of my attacker not to be significantly more negative than my own) and no trust in God or any other magical beings to protect me or see to my needs.

It's interesting to me how Christians tend to act like atheists when push comes to shove: they say they'll go to Heaven when they die, but take extreme measures to avoid it. They say that they trust God to protect them, but still wouldn't get on an airplane if they knew it hadn't been inspected. They pray for healing, but still go to the doctor.

It's as if their faith has no material impact on their lives beyond how they spend their Sunday mornings.

 

[shmogie]

Yes, according to Christianity God has programmed us to sin, and this Earth is a proving ground, to see who can resist the lure of self preservation and worldly success, and concentrate on righteousness and deferring his treasure for Heaven.
Yes, and if you choose to be practical, to lay up your treasure on Earth, you will not reap eternal life.
quote]If someone attacks my family or me, they have made a choice, knowing that they are risking death, if I am compelled to shoot and kill them because of their choice, I am simply an instrument fulfilling the consequence of their choice, the choice was not mine,

OK, I can see this, like Judas being an instrument of god's plan.
Sources?
And thus proved their faith and secured a martyr's place in Heaven.
Christians move through the world but are not supposed to become part of it. It's only a short, refinement and testing stage.[/QUOTE]
If your position is true, that Christians must be willing victims to those who want to maim or kill them, then please explain to me how Christ could proclaim the faith of a Roman centurion as being of high value, or members of the Roman army being Christians, or Christ command his disciples to carry swords. None imply doormat Christians to me.
'
You alleged Christian attempt to call me a judas shows poor exegetical skill.

Judas was with Christ, an Apostle and probably had grand ideas about forcing Christ into displaying immense power for the purpose of exalting Israel. He never imagined Christ would die as a result.

I on the other hand, world simply be preserving innocent life.

Your concept of a martyr s flawed. a Martyr is one who is attacked and dies because their faith is attacked in them.

Latimer being burned at the stake because of his faith is quite different from you be beaten to death in a home invasion. Latimer is a Martyr, you would be just another murdered Christian.

Having been a law Christian law enforcement officer, and there were tens of thousands of us before I retired, and now after, who are prepared to do whatever necessary to defend your life, even give their own, I have a suggestion for you.

Perhaps those who believe as you do could devise some sort of method so we can identify you.

In that way, if someone is going to shoot you in a road rage incident, or is beating the tar out of on the sidewalk, we would not have to shoot the shooter trying to shoot you, or get involved in your fight to get the thug off of you, risking injury to ourselves.

Being able to clearly, visually identify you, we would know that you think it is wrong for us to do what is required to save you, and you would condemn us for doing so. We then would be able to, in good conscience, avoid the risk of injury to ourselves, or even death, and just walk on by letting you get on with the business of becoming what you think is a martyr.

On second thought, that wouldn't work. Since I answer to a much higher authority than you, your opinion is irrelevant to me. You are my neighbor, I have an obligation to you given me by Christ,

If you are under attack by an agent of the devil acting through an evil person, I will defend you, and do my level best to save you, even if I have no choice but to kill your attacker. Your judgement of me means nothing. Christ';s judgement of me means everything.

Sorry

 

[shmogie]

And what would be the problem with that?


The Gospels say he did change it, actually:

Matt 5:21-22:

21 “You have heard that it was said to an older generation, ‘Do not murder,’ and ‘whoever murders will be subjected to judgment.’ 22 But I say to you that anyone who is angry with a brother will be subjected to judgment. And whoever insults a brother will be brought before the council, and whoever says ‘Fool’ will be sent to fiery hell.



The self-described white nationslist is a cop? Great.

Creative - but dangerous - interpretation of Romans 13, spinning a passage that tells Christians to submit to authorities as they were submitting to God into something that tells you that everyone else should submit to you as if you were God, because you're in authority. Seems more than a little blasphemous by most versions of Christianity I'm familiar with.


And if God doesn't make someone "reap what they sow," you'll damn well do it for Him, right?


Baloney. Your actions are your own responsibility. You are not "compelled" to do anything. If you decide to take a life, that's your action for you to own.


And you want to save yourself or others from this fate. But what do you think that fate actually is?

If you were an atheist, I would consider acting in self-defense reasonable: life is preferable to death... but in the Christian view, physical death isn't actually death; it's the transition to something else.

Here's my understanding of what the effect of defending the life of a believing Christian with deadly force, according to mainstream Christian belief. Tell me whether you agree:

- the Christian's transition to Heaven is delayed.
- the murderer loses any hope of salvation and he is consigned to a fate worse than death in Hell.


And that's perfectly understandable... in an atheist worldview. I might take the same approach myself, but only because I see death as negative (and the death of my attacker not to be significantly more negative than my own) and no trust in God or any other magical beings to protect me or see to my needs.

It's interesting to me how Christians tend to act like atheists when push comes to shove: they say they'll go to Heaven when they die, but take extreme measures to avoid it. They say that they trust God to protect them, but still wouldn't get on an airplane if they knew it hadn't been inspected. They pray for healing, but still go to the doctor.

It's as if their faith has no material impact on their lives beyond how they spend their Sunday mornings.

Yes, I was a a cop, a good one. Since you want to imply I am a racist, by bringing another thread into this one, I will point out that I never had one complaint of racism ever filed against me in 25 years, I never had one grievance filed against me in 17 years from the numerous minority Officers and other personnel I supervised ( I had no grievance ever filed from anyone for any reason). I can show you letters of appreciation for the racial sensitivity my Dept. showed, under my command.

I am sorry that you seem to simply lack the intellectual depth to grasp the intent of the other thread, nevertheless, get off of the racism theme. You have no evidence of this, other than a literal term you literally do not understand.

As to the rest of your post, lease see my response to another doormat Christian in this thread, it addresses your points.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Yes, I was a a cop, a good one. Since you want to imply I am a racist, by bringing another thread into this one, I will point out that I never had one complaint of racism ever filed against me in 25 years, I never had one grievance filed against me in 17 years from the numerous minority Officers and other personnel I supervised ( I had no grievance ever filed from anyone for any reason). I can show you letters of appreciation for the racial sensitivity my Dept. showed, under my command.

Here's the thing: I don't believe you.

Maybe you're telling the truth and maybe you're not, but I trust you as far as I could comfortably throw you.

I am sorry that you seem to simply lack the intellectual depth to grasp the intent of the other thread, nevertheless, get off of the racism theme. You have no evidence of this, other than a literal term you literally do not understand.

You were the one who self-applied a racist label. If you're going to own it, then own it. If you don't want to be considered a racist, call yourself something else.

As to the rest of your post, lease see my response to another doormat Christian in this thread, it addresses your points.

It doesn't address this one:

Here's my understanding of what the effect of defending the life of a believing Christian with deadly force, according to mainstream Christian belief. Tell me whether you agree:

- the Christian's transition to Heaven is delayed.
- the murderer loses any hope of salvation and he is consigned to a fate worse than death in Hell.

Why is delaying your arrival in Heaven so important to you that it's worth consigning someone to Hell?

 

[shmogie]

Yes, I was a a cop, a good one. Since you want to imply I am a racist, by bringing another thread into this one, I will point out that I never had one complaint of racism ever filed against me in 25 years, I never had one grievance filed against me in 17 years from the numerous minority Officers and other personnel I supervised ( I had no grievance ever filed from anyone for any reason). I can show you letters of appreciation for the racial sensitivity my Dept. showed, under my command.

I am sorry that you seem to simply lack the intellectual depth to grasp the intent of the other thread, nevertheless, get off of the racism theme. You have no evidence of this, other than a literal term you literally do not understand.

As to the rest of your post, lease see my response to another doormat Christian in this thread, it addresses your points.

A specific point, I failed to address.

Here's the thing: I don't believe you.

Maybe you're telling the truth and maybe you're not, but I trust you as far as I could comfortably throw you.


You were the one who self-applied a racist label. If you're going to own it, then own it. If you don't want to be considered a racist, call yourself something else.
I am white, I am a nationalist ergo, a white nationalist. You can´t understand simple English, your problem.



It doesn't address this one:

Here's my understanding of what the effect of defending the life of a believing Christian with deadly force, according to mainstream Christian belief. Tell me whether you agree:

- the Christian's transition to Heaven is delayed.
- the murderer loses any hope of salvation and he is consigned to a fate worse than death in Hell.

Why is delaying your arrival in Heaven so important to you that it's worth consigning someone to Hell?

I have noticed that about you, those who have the temerity to disagree with you are branded in some negative way, liar, racist , etc. Ah well, your childishness is between you and God.

I believe that all children are saved, before the age of accountability. So, abortion is a good thing, as their salvation is ensured and they go to heaven, In fact, it eliminates them reaching the age of accountability and perhaps choosing to be lost, abortion assures their salvation, right ?

People die every day, and lose the hope of salvation. Young people choose to die by drugs every day, and lose the hope of salvation.

You seem to believe that God always predestines oneś death. God knocks a plane out of the sky because he predestined the death of hundreds, or infects one with cancer, so they will die. So, has not a murderer become an agent of God in your mind ?

What decision should I make if a thug non Christian is in the process of killing another non Christian ? Should I just let they and God work it out so the one destined to die, does ?

Good doesn´t do evil, nor does he choose evil in dealing with others. Satan is the God of this world and he and his agents kill and maim, they kill Christians, eliminating them from the fight for souls, shortening their years of productivity for God.

People make choices, some fatal, before they have salvation. A person, acting as an agent of satan trying to kill an innocent, unless they are insane, have chosen to murder. If there is no other way to stop them, and especially if they have been warned, they choose to die.

I have chosen the only method available to save an innocent marked for premature death by satan. I will make that choice if required, a sad but good act, and demanded of me.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

A specific point, I failed to address.


I have noticed that about you, those who have the temerity to disagree with you are branded in some negative way, liar, racist , etc. Ah well, your childishness is between you and God.

I believe that all children are saved, before the age of accountability. So, abortion is a good thing, as their salvation is ensured and they go to heaven, In fact, it eliminates them reaching the age of accountability and perhaps choosing to be lost, abortion assures their salvation, right ?

People die every day, and lose the hope of salvation. Young people choose to die by drugs every day, and lose the hope of salvation.

You seem to believe that God always predestines oneś death. God knocks a plane out of the sky because he predestined the death of hundreds, or infects one with cancer, so they will die. So, has not a murderer become an agent of God in your mind ?

What decision should I make if a thug non Christian is in the process of killing another non Christian ? Should I just let they and God work it out so the one destined to die, does ?

Good doesn´t do evil, nor does he choose evil in dealing with others. Satan is the God of this world and he and his agents kill and maim, they kill Christians, eliminating them from the fight for souls, shortening their years of productivity for God.

People make choices, some fatal, before they have salvation. A person, acting as an agent of satan trying to kill an innocent, unless they are insane, have chosen to murder. If there is no other way to stop them, and especially if they have been warned, they choose to die.

I have chosen the only method available to save an innocent marked for premature death by satan. I will make that choice if required, a sad but good act, and demanded of me.

You didn't answer my question.

 

[Valjean]

Your concept of a martyr s flawed. a Martyr is one who is attacked and dies because their faith is attacked in them.

Latimer being burned at the stake because of his faith is quite different from you be beaten to death in a home invasion. Latimer is a Martyr, you would be just another murdered Christian.

My concept of a martyr is one who willingly sacrifices his life for a principle, when an honorable and less onerous alternative is open to him.
Why wouldn't a person refusing to raise his arm against an assailant, for religious reasons, not earn his place in Heaven? If Earth is a testing ground for moral strength in the face of adversity, the man just passed his test.

If you are under attack by an agent of the devil acting through an evil person, I will defend you, and do my level best to save you, even if I have no choice but to kill your attacker. Your judgement of me means nothing. Christ';s judgement of me means everything.

Very meritorious, from a secular or practical viewpoint, but Christians aren't supposed to be either secular or practical. They are here to test their mettle in the face of temptation. They are here to demonstrate their indifference to worldly interests.

People die every day, and lose the hope of salvation. Young people choose to die by drugs every day, and lose the hope of salvation.

Why would death by drugs sacrifice salvation? What moral test does an overdose victim necessarily fail?

You seem to believe that God always predestines oneś death. God knocks a plane out of the sky because he predestined the death of hundreds, or infects one with cancer, so they will die. So, has not a murderer become an agent of God in your mind ?

This is the position of all Calvinist denominations, like the Presbyterians I was raised with as a child.
God is omniscient. He knows before you're even born whether you're destined for Heaven or Hell. Nothing you can do will change that.

What decision should I make if a thug non Christian is in the process of killing another non Christian ? Should I just let they and God work it out so the one destined to die, does ?

Remember the salt march, when government toadies would club a peaceful marcher over the head and the marcher behind him would quietly step forward to be similarly martyred, one after the other?

As a police officer you're in a moral quandary. Your job requires you to do one thing, your religion requires another. Somehow you've managed to combine the two.

I have chosen the only method available to save an innocent marked for premature death by satan. I will make that choice if required, a sad but good act, and demanded of me.

As a police officer, your job is to resist, even combat, evil. As a Christian, your job is to resist not evil; to demonstrate your indifference to worldly things.
People have a remarkable ability to rationalize the most egregiously immoral actions.
"Let God sort it out."[/QUOTE]

 

[shmogie]

My concept of a martyr is one who willingly sacrifices his life for a principle, when an honorable and less onerous alternative is open to him.
Why wouldn't a person refusing to raise his arm against an assailant, for religious reasons, not earn his place in Heaven? If Earth is a testing ground for moral strength in the face of adversity, the man just passed his test.
Very meritorious, from a secular or practical viewpoint, but Christians aren't supposed to be either secular or practical. They are here to test their mettle in the face of temptation. They are here to demonstrate their indifference to worldly interests.
Why would death by drugs sacrifice salvation? What moral test does an overdose victim necessarily fail?
This is the position of all Calvinist denominations, like the Presbyterians I was raised with as a child.
God is omniscient. He knows before you're even born whether you're destined for Heaven or Hell. Nothing you can do will change that.
Remember the salt march, when government toadies would club a peaceful marcher over the head and the marcher behind him would quietly step forward to be similarly martyred, one after the other?

As a police officer you're in a moral quandary. Your job requires you to do one thing, your religion requires another. Somehow you've managed to combine the two.
As a police officer, your job is to resist, even combat, evil. As a Christian, your job is to resist not evil; to demonstrate your indifference to worldly things.
People have a remarkable ability to rationalize the most egregiously immoral actions.
"Let God sort it out."

[/QUOTE] Ah, a Calvinist, that explains much. Since you believe we are all actors playing out an exact script that God wrote a million years ago, then you know that I nor anyone else can do nothing that God did not know we would do that million years ago, thus we cannot chose anything, we play out our role, God cannot be in error.

So, apparently, to you, I am doing exactly what I must, as you are. If you think I am immoral, then I was foreordained to be so.

Of course I do have total free will. I know intimately what the Bible teaches, and I know that I have the Christian duty to protect others, the doormat Christians, who have the free will to be what they are.

I note you ignored the Roman Christian soldiers, or the Disciples carrying swords, these facts disproving your ideas are inconvenient for your narrative.

 

[oldbadger]

I will exercise my right of self defense, and will defend others as far as I am able. I do not fear death, it is now closer for me, I just don't want to choose it in this way.

Take the sword of the Spirit (EPHESIANS 6:17)
Take no anxious thought of defence (MATTHEW 10:19; MARK 13:9-11; LUKE 12:11-12; LUKE 21:14)
Do not kill (JAMES 2:11)
Thou shalt not kill (MATTHEW 5:21; MATTHEW 19:18; MARK 10:19; LUKE 18:20; ROMANS 13:9)
Offer the other cheek (MATTHEW 5:39; LUKE 6:29)


;Shrug:

 

[Valjean]

Ah, a Calvinist, that explains much. Since you believe we are all actors playing out an exact script that God wrote a million years ago, then you know that I nor anyone else can do nothing that God did not know we would do that million years ago, thus we cannot chose anything, we play out our role, God cannot be in error.

So, apparently, to you, I am doing exactly what I must, as you are. If you think I am immoral, then I was foreordained to be so.

Of course I do have total free will. I know intimately what the Bible teaches, and I know that I have the Christian duty to protect others, the doormat Christians, who have the free will to be what they are.

I note you ignored the Roman Christian soldiers, or the Disciples carrying swords, these facts disproving your ideas are inconvenient for your narrative.[/QUOTE]
LOL -- not a Calvinist, just made to go to Presbyterian services as a child. I'm playing Devil's advocate here, playing social values against Christian values.