Do American Evangelicals and Fundamentalists Lack the Social Conscience of Jesus Christ?

[metis]

Ok, lets go there, if we must. JFK, whored around in the White house, ditto for Clinton, Warren G. Harding dragged White House Maids into the White House closets, FDR had his mistress/secretary in the White House office, and in the White House when Eleanor was away.

We're talking about Trump, not any other president. Secondly, when do two (or more) wrongs make a right? To justify Trump on that basis is simply not a Christian teaching no matter how hard you may try.

If I voted for a President based upon a candidates morality, I probably wouldn't vote.

I tend to strongly feel that morals count, and if you don't, then why do you have "Christian" by your avatar?

A booming economy, unemployment at itś lowest in 30 years, black unemployment the lowest it has been in 60 years, Hispanic unemployment the lowest it has been in history.

And extension of the Obama recovery whereas no quarter of the Trump economy has matched the growth of two of the quarters under Obama.

On top of that, Trump has run up the deficit to almost $1 trillion already and is cutting programs that help the poor and the elderly. Seems to me if one truly believes in Jesus that they would not be supportive of that.

I believe in the law.

Trump doesn't as he has proposed things that would be in violation of the Constitution if implemented. He's an autocrat acting like previous autocrats that we've seen.

Now, as to ¨children in cages¨. Trump didn´t initiate this policy, Obama did.

Because of federal law, they couldn't put children in jail with their parents, but they did look for relatives and then others to help with the kids until the parent's legal fate was determined.

Trump's administration, otoh, threw thousands into these cages and are now building what in essence are basically internment camps-- "tent cities". And it seems to me that a Christian would be looking for ways to help these refugees but Trump has not proposed anything of the sorts.

So, which is more of one's following: Trump or Jesus, because it simply cannot be both?

 

[metis]

Doesn't mean a 'good Christian' has to become a door mat for the world (nor become stupid).

And whom is it that says of such? What kind of Christian would propose sending 15,000 troops to the border, saying they could shoot these people if they threw rocks, and yet has not taken one single step or even one single proposal on how these people may be helped?

 

[David T]

Seems to be with most 'religious' folks I've encountered.

And ironically they are atheists experts! Together it all makes elevator muzak. Some gawd aweful sound that sounds like it used to be a song reduced to a diddy....

 

[BSM1]

And ironically they are atheists experts! Together it all makes elevator muzak. Some gawd aweful sound that sounds like it used to be a song reduced to a diddy....

'Bout sums it up...

 

[shmogie]

We're talking about Trump, not any other president. Secondly, when do two (or more) wrongs make a right? To justify Trump on that basis is simply not a Christian teaching no matter how hard you may try.

I tend to strongly feel that morals count, and if you don't, then why do you have "Christian" by your avatar?

And extension of the Obama recovery whereas no quarter of the Trump economy has matched the growth of two of the quarters under Obama.

On top of that, Trump has run up the deficit to almost $1 trillion already and is cutting programs that help the poor and the elderly. Seems to me if one truly believes in Jesus that they would not be supportive of that.

Trump doesn't as he has proposed things that would be in violation of the Constitution if implemented. He's an autocrat acting like previous autocrats that we've seen.

Because of federal law, they couldn't put children in jail with their parents, but they did look for relatives and then others to help with the kids until the parent's legal fate was determined.

Trump's administration, otoh, threw thousands into these cages and are now building what in essence are basically internment camps-- "tent cities". And it seems to me that a Christian would be looking for ways to help these refugees but Trump has not proposed anything of the sorts.

So, which is more of one's following: Trump or Jesus, because it simply cannot be both?

I don't follow Trump, stop obfuscating and conflating.

Alleged refugees have a right to due process, even if they entered the country illegally. BTW 80% of asylum claims that are adjudicated are denied, however, they have no right to simply be released into the country. Housing our troops in tents is fine, here in Arizona, for years, volunteer prisoners were housed in tents, refuge's all over the word are housed in tents, there is absolutely no reason why these illegals should not be housed in tents till their cases are adjudicated, none.

Whenever I hear liberal propaganda and hysteria, I research it. Fact, the so called cages the older illegal children were housed in, their dining area's, their indoor recreation areas were rooms, in the case of the latter two, large rooms that were divided by fencing, instead of solid walls, so a limited staff could properly supervise them.

They had, probably superior to what they access to balanced meals, superior probably to what they had been provide by their parents who dragged them across Mexico. They had access to medical care, and toys they would not have ever had in their home country, It is the fault of the courts, not any administration, that these people were separated.

Please, Obama pontificated that the new norm was 2% GDP and unemployment around 6%.

His recovery was the slowest and lowest from any recession in history.

It was the Republican fundamental principle of lower taxes that spurred the economy, and Obama had absolutely nothing to do with that.

I am going to ask you kindly, and with respect, to please not judge my Christianity, because we disagree on issues, or because you interpret the Bible differently than me. I would never do that to you if you were a professed Christian, and you use it as a subtle ad hominem, which is unseemly.

Thank you

 

[viole]

Do American Evangelicals and fundamentalists lack the social conscience of Jesus Christ?

Obviously. Once I chatted with a very Christian lady who complained at not being able to buy medicines for her kids and, at the same time, to the devilish Obama care.

That was a very odd experience.

Ciao

- viole

 

[metis]

Fact, the so called cages the older illegal children were housed in, their dining area's, their indoor recreation areas were rooms, in the case of the latter two, large rooms that were divided by fencing, instead of solid walls, so a limited staff could properly supervise them.

There were pictures of these cages with the children in them that were taken in secret and smuggled out, and they were shown on the news. No amount of song & dance changes what was shown.

BTW, if things were so nice for these kids, why were these cages even needed?

Please, Obama pontificated that the new norm was 2% GDP and unemployment around 6%.

His recovery was the slowest and lowest from any recession in history.

If one is familiar with economics, getting into a recession can be so fast but getting out of one, especially as deep as this one was, takes time. Obama listened to and took the advice of Bernanke and Paulson, both Republicans, and their actions stopped the "freefall", as Stiglitz called it.

I am going to ask you kindly, and with respect, to please not judge my Christianity, because we disagree on issues, or because you interpret the Bible differently than me. I would never do that to you if you were a professed Christian, and you use it as a subtle ad hominem, which is unseemly.

We are at a place called "Religious Forums", and I would posit that even if the discussion is on politics, the nature of the forum intrinsically brings religion into the picture-- or at least should. I believe morality should be all inclusive in what we try to do, but you've made it clear that you don't

What I posted was not "ad hominen" but was comparing Trump's words and actions as compared to Jesus' words and actions, and the fact that you don't seem to much be buying into the latter's. And you admitted that you don't consider morals when it comes to choosing a president-- you said it, not me.

So, here are the Seven Deadly Sins:
pride
greed
lust
envy
gluttony
wrath
sloth

How does Jesus stack to these?

Now, how does Trump stack up to these?

I would suggest that morals do count and that the same should hold true in the political arena as well.

Anyhow, you've made your point, I've made mine, so I'm just going to move on.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

But that's only one side of him, and the other side is quite different.

Even the organization's charitable works are some of the worst examples out there of nasty "you don't get your food until you listen to this sermon"-type unethical, taking-advantage-of-the-vulnerable salesmanship.

@InChrist

 

[shmogie]

Obviously. Once I chatted with a very Christian lady who complained at not being able to buy medicines for her kids and, at the same time, to the devilish Obama care.

That was a very odd experience.

Ciao

- viole

So called obama care, for the first time in our history, compelled, by law, persons to buy a product that many did not want. Further, they were compelled to buy a bloated product, with many benefits they may have felt they did not need, it a high price. Finally, the product they were forced to buy, by law, had massive deductibles, so high, that few could get benefit from the product.

My party failed to repeal this nonsense that is failing, and failed to replace it with a better more affordable plan. It will fail, and will have to be replaced.

American drug costs are high, obamacare doesn´t help. The problem must be dealt with separately.

 

[viole]

Yes, Jesus associated with the lowest and most marginalized of society, but why ? Did he just dig hanging out with them, drinking wine, because he felt sorry for them, and enjoyed their conversation ? Uh, no.

Jesus´s overriding purpose was to bring the Good News of the salvation of God first to Israel, then to the world. In this purpose he was concerned about all people, but had special concern for those who had been rejected and discarded by the society of the time.

However, in instructing his Apostles and Disciples about sharing this good news, he was clear, present your truth, if it is rejected, move on.

Accepting the Gospel has obligations beyond love and acceptance. The Christ said the word repent as many times as he said love. No doubt he used the word repent in addressing those of low station. If they would not, not doubt he followed his own advice, and moved on.

His secondary purpose was the care and aid for the poor, sick, isolated, and ill treated, the social conscience. I agree that wealth and comfort has dimmed this for many believers, and that is a failing, hat we all need to look at ourselves, and rectify.

Nevertheless, the primary purpose of All Christians is to present the Gospel to as many as possible, and itś saving Grace. It is a life or death proposition which transcends feeding the hungry, caring for the ill, protecting the abused, for without the Gospel and itś salvation, they will be lost for eternity.

Many wrap themselves in caring, and never share the Gospel, many wrap themselves in preaching the Gospel, and never care about the daily needs of those hearing, and those who haven heard,

Christians must do both, but sharing the Gospel is and always will be the great and primary commission for us.

What makes you think that people who never heard the Gospel will be lost for eternity?

Ciao

- viole

 

[viole]

So called obama care, for the first time in our history, compelled, by law, persons to buy a product that many did not want. Further, they were compelled to buy a bloated product, with many benefits they may have felt they did not need, it a high price. Finally, the product they were forced to buy, by law, had massive deductibles, so high, that few could get benefit from the product.

My party failed to repeal this nonsense that is failing, and failed to replace it with a better more affordable plan. It will fail, and will have to be replaced.

American drug costs are high, obamacare doesn´t help. The problem must be dealt with separately.

Well, i am sure they changed it by now, if it was so bad. Right?

Ciao

- viole

 

[metis]

Well, i am sure they changed it by now, if it was so bad. Right?

Ciao

- viole

Good point as the Republicans have had control of both houses and the presidency, and not only didn't they pass any legislation to ameliorate the health-care issue, they never even brought any possible solution to the table for discussion.

On top of this, what they wanted to do was to basically kick 20+ million people from their health-care insurance, which two major studies (the Kaiser Family Foundation and Harvard University) showed would increase our death rate. And using Jesus' teachings as one standard, how "Christian" is that, especially since it's the poor and the elderly that would be mostly affected? Which religion teaches that we should just ignore their plight? Obviously none.

 

[oldbadger]

Do American Evangelicals and fundamentalists lack the social conscience of Jesus Christ?

It amazes me, but they are sure to tell you that they follow the social conscience of Jesus Christ.

They tend to be strongly in favour of gun rights and uses, and when questioned about this they will explain that Jesus was a warrior as well.............

Luke :22:36 Then said he unto them, But now, he that hath a purse, let him take [it,] and likewise [his] scrip: and he that hath no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one.

Matthew 10:24, "Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send [or bring] peace, but a sword."

They tend to be strongly in favour making wars when it suits them, and bringing their self-righteousness down upon others....................

Revelation 19:15-16 King James Version (KJV)
15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.

And their idea of law and justice is to cherry-pick several of the Old Testament laws which would give them the right to have adulterers, Gays, blasphemers and many more executed by the old methods, and preferably in public, as described in the Old Testament. But strangely they seem to want to ignore the 20+ poor-laws written in the same books.

And so..... some extremely fundie Christians believe that Jesus was very different from the Jesus of mainstream, Christianity...... until it suits them to turn on their emotions. I would call it Religio-Social Scizophrenia, and if I'm right then these folks are nuts, and therefore not fully responsible through loss of reason of the mind..... but sadly that doesn't seem to remove their voting rights.

 

[YmirGF]

Do American Evangelicals and fundamentalists lack the social conscience of Jesus Christ?

I'd say that is a given, @Sunstone

Given that Christlike behavior is an ideal, that MOST fall short of proper emulation. That said, non American Evangelicals and Fundamentalists certainly do not hold the prize as the only human animals working within a mental disconnect.

 

[Valjean]

Doesn't mean a 'good Christian' has to become a door mat for the world (nor become stupid). Even Jesus told his disciples to sell their packs and buy a sword.

Wasn't that meant metaphorically?

 

[Valjean]

So called obama care, for the first time in our history, compelled, by law, persons to buy a product that many did not want. Further, they were compelled to buy a bloated product, with many benefits they may have felt they did not need, it a high price.

Benefits they may not have wanted -- but did need.
Reminds me of safety glass or seat belts in cars. People didn't appreciate their value till they needed them, and industry and conservatives railed against them as government tyranny.

Finally, the product they were forced to buy, by law, had massive deductibles, so high, that few could get benefit from the product.

Republicans did everything they could to sabotage the legislation, then complained it didn't work.
10 ways the GOP sabotaged Obamacare
Marco Rubio Quietly Undermines Affordable Care Act

My party failed to repeal this nonsense that is failing, and failed to replace it with a better more affordable plan. It will fail, and will have to be replaced.
American drug costs are high, obamacare doesn´t help. The problem must be dealt with separately.

I agree Obamacare is a terrible system, but it's better than what we had. I'll charitably concede it was the best Obama could get passed. Obamacare reduced individual costs, and improved the product.

American healthcare is the worst in the developed world, both in terms of costs, complexity and outcomes. We have plenty of examples of better systems, but our system is an industry, designed for profit, not to benefit the public.

 

[BSM1]

Wasn't that meant metaphorically?

Uhhh,,,no. No more than anything else could be considered metaphorical. How would lend itself to a metaphor in the first place?

 

[Valjean]

Uhhh,,,no. No more than anything else could be considered metaphorical. How would lend itself to a metaphor in the first place?

The Bible's full of metaphors not meant to be taken literally.
Trump does a lot of saber rattling -- but no-one believes he has an actual saber. It's a figure of speech.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Doesn't mean a 'good Christian' has to become a door mat for the world (nor become stupid).

It doesn't?

Matt 5:10-11:

10 “Blessed are those who are persecuted for righteousness, for the kingdom of heaven belongs to them.
11 “Blessed are you when people insult you and persecute you and say all kinds of evil things about you falsely on account of me.12 Rejoice and be glad because your reward is great in heaven, for they persecuted the prophets before you in the same way.

Even Jesus told his disciples to sell their packs and buy a sword.

I used to think this was an example of a contradiction in the Bible (when held against all the pacifist parts), but then it was pointed out to me that the passage gives the specific reason Jesus wanted the sword to be bought: to fulfill a prophecy. AFAIK, he doesn't ever advocate using a sword. In fact, he condemns it ("he who lives by the sword shall die by the sword").

 

[Sunstone]

Even the organization's charitable works are some of the worst examples out there of nasty "you don't get your food until you listen to this sermon"-type unethical, taking-advantage-of-the-vulnerable salesmanship.

@InChrist

One of the two homeless shelters here in town is run by Evangelicals. It's also a food kitchen. They're exactly like that. You don't get to eat before you've listened to a sermon -- one that can run 45 minutes or more. If you refuse to listen to it, they put you out. If you show up late -- to late to listen to it -- they won't feed you. Wonderful people! So Christian!

The other homeless shelter is run by the Red Cross. Much more humane. No proselytizing. And the other food kitchen is run by Catholics. Again, no proselytizing. Much more humane.