Divine Foreknowledge

[Rex]

Well here goes

P1- Suppose God knows all before we are born
P2- If God knows everything before we do it , then it's never in our power to do otherwise
P3- If it's never in our power to do otherwise then no human can be punished for their actions
P4- Humans can be justly held responsible for their actions

C- It cannot be the case that God knows before we are born everything we will do

 

[Lightkeeper]

Well here goes

P1- Suppose God knows all before we are born
P2- If God knows everything before we do it , then it's never in our power to do otherwise
P3- If it's never in our power to do otherwise then no human can be punished for their actions
P4- Humans can be justly held responsible for their actions

C- It cannot be the case that God knows before we are born everything we will do

I think even if God knows everything before we do it, we still have power to do whatever we want. His knowing doesn't have anything to do with our power. I know the sun will come up tomorrow, that doesn't take away from the power of the sun. So, God knows what I am going to do and I still have free will. Humans can be and are held responsible for their actions in this scenario.

 

[rivet]

Ahhh yes. The old "free will" debate.

Is this just a movie that is playing out? Are we just following a script? Or can we ad-lib a little?

 

[Ceridwen018]

I can see what you're saying, Lightkeeper. Just because god knows what we are going to do, doesn't mean that he planned it all out or that he is controlling it.

However, this theory still fits in with a sort of 'predestination' idea. Although we may have free will, god still knows what we are going to do, and how we will end up in the end.

 

[rivet]

We area all little computer programs. And God is the master programmer. Though, I think God must work for Microsoft as we have a lot of bugs.

 

[Rex]

I think even if God knows everything before we do it, we still have power to do whatever we want. His knowing doesn't have anything to do with our power. I know the sun will come up tomorrow, that doesn't take away from the power of the sun. So, God knows what I am going to do and I still have free will. Humans can be and are held responsible for their actions in this scenario.

Well the reply to that is since God already knows, do we really have a choice then? Our life is already laid out for us, thus we only have the option to choose what God knows we have chosen.

 

[Lightkeeper]

We aren't being guided so it doesn't effect us that God would know what is going to happen. The people who made the movie know what happens in the movie. When we view it we experience it in our own way and it's all new to us.

 

[lilithu]

Well here goes

P1- Suppose God knows all before we are born
P2- If God knows everything before we do it , then it's never in our power to do otherwise
P3- If it's never in our power to do otherwise then no human can be punished for their actions
P4- Humans can be justly held responsible for their actions

C- It cannot be the case that God knows before we are born everything we will do

God is eternal. We are temporal. We humans stand within time and only see what is right at the moment, altho we do have access via memory and to what has happened before. We cannot see the future, because for us the future is still potentiality, not actuality. It does not become actual until it is the present. We humans continally live at the border of potential to actual. God is not limited to that border. God stands outside of time and sees all of time at once. God sees past, present, and future all at once. But God's witnessing this does not meaning that God is causing it to be so. Just as our witnessing something happening in the present (and thus knowing it) does not mean that we are causing it to be so. God knows everything before, during, and after we do it, but God does not cause it. We always have the power to choose our own path.

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

I know the sun will come up tomorrow, ...

As a matter of fact, while you be justified in making such an inference you do not know any such thing.

 

[lilithu]

As a matter of fact, while you be justified in making such an inference you do not know any such thing.

David Hume.

 

[Scuba Pete]

Ever make a budget?

You "pre-destine" your money to go here or there, and then life happens and the money is appropriated FAR differently.

I believe that's how God has done it. It's also written that "many are called but few are chosen" which makes me think that God is open to as many as possible, but being a realist he knows that not many will choose him over instant gratification.

 

[Pah]

Well here goes

P1- Suppose God knows all before we are born
P2- If God knows everything before we do it , then it's never in our power to do otherwise
P3- If it's never in our power to do otherwise then no human can be punished for their actions
P4- Humans can be justly held responsible for their actions

C- It cannot be the case that God knows before we are born everything we will do

Or an additional conclusion - There is no free will.

 

[Master Vigil]

"You "pre-destine" your money to go here or there, and then life happens and the money is appropriated FAR differently."

That seems to me that god can't see the future. Which limits god, and we all know that a limited god is no longer god.

 

[lilithu]

That seems to me that god can't see the future. Which limits god, and we all know that a limited god is no longer god.

We do?

 

[Master Vigil]

Can a perfect essence be limited? And if god isn't perfect, than what is god?

 

[lilithu]

Can a perfect essence be limited? And if god isn't perfect, than what is god?

And if God cannot be limited, isn't that in itself a limitation?

 

[Scuba Pete]

Well we can define God all we want... he is who he is and nothing we can say will add to or detract from the veracity of his existence. I don't think there is a pigwon hole that we have invented yet to fit him.

Or we can try to understand him, or what he wants of us.

The first is an attempt to manipulate God.

The second is an attempt to change our hearts.

 

[No*s]

And if God cannot be limited, isn't that in itself a limitation?

Either that or a weakness of human language .

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

Ever make a budget? You "pre-destine" your money ....

Intention is no analog to omniscience. If God knows yesterday what I will do tomorrow, then as of yesterday tomorrow's actions are curtailed.

 

[Scuba Pete]

If God knows yesterday what I will do tomorrow

Does the Bible make this claim for him? If so, I can't think of where.