Discussion: A Conversation Between Fish-Hunter and Dopp

[doppelganger]

It's uncanny how the most dedicated and unflinching proselytizers never want to reveal anything human or personal about themselves. They want to argue about religious dogma or nothing (with rare exceptions).

Why do you suppose that is? Does it make it easier to distance one's self from having to actually listen to and consider another person's perspective, by keeping any feeling of personal connection or compassion out of the discussion?

 

[Kungfuzed]

I remember some conflicting teachings back when I was religious. We were taught to share the gospel, and at the same time warned to stay away from those who would lead us astray, to not cast our pearls before swine. I can't speak for Fish-Hunter though. He really seems like the opposite of how I was taught, to establish a relationship of trust first before diving into things.

Actually, I've never been much for small talk either, but I do believe that personal experience is an important part in searching for truth.

 

[Fish-Hunter]

I remember some conflicting teachings back when I was religious. We were taught to share the gospel, and at the same time warned to stay away from those who would lead us astray, to not cast our pearls before swine. I can't speak for Fish-Hunter though. He really seems like the opposite of how I was taught, to establish a relationship of trust first before diving into things.

Hey, what's a tall white Filipino? I have both Hawaiian and Filipino roots! Maybe you are a haole Filipino...like my kids.

 

[Kungfuzed]

Hey, what's a tall white Filipino? I have both Hawaiian and Filipino roots! Maybe you are a haole Filipino...like my kids.

I'm actually a white American who married a filipina. During courtship I developed a skill at cooking filipino food, and after visiting the country I have gained a love for the people and it's culture. I have a goal of retiring there some day. A while back I started a thread on how race isn't biological and is only a construct of society, and that I now declare myself a tall white filipino.

 

[Fish-Hunter]

I'm actually a white American who married a filipina. During courtship I developed a skill at cooking filipino food, and after visiting the country I have gained a love for the people and it's culture. I have a goal of retiring there some day. A while back I started a thread on how race isn't biological and is only a construct of society, and that I now declare myself a tall white filipino.

You don't eat black dog, do you? LOL!

 

[Kungfuzed]

You don't eat black dog, do you? LOL!

I haven't tried that, but I do love siopao :kat:

 

[Fish-Hunter]

I haven't tried that, but I do love siopao :kat:

Okay, since we have established a relationship of trust... I'm filipino and married a haole (white), and our kids probably look alike... why does it appear that you left Christianity?

 

[Katzpur]

Okay, since we have established a relationship of trust... I'm filipino and married a haole (white), and our kids probably look alike... why does it appear that you left Christianity?

Actually, it gets better, Fish-Hunter. He not only left Christianity, he left Mormonism! I bet you'll have a heyday with that little fact. He's a good guy, though... a lot better guy than a lot of "true Historical Biblical genuine, etc. etc. etc. Christians."

 

[Kungfuzed]

Okay, since we have established a relationship of trust... I'm filipino and married a haole (white), and our kids probably look alike... why does it appear that you left Christianity?

The person I once called God turned out to be nothing more than an imaginary friend created through years of study, prayer, and worship.

 

[Fish-Hunter]

The person I once called God turned out to be nothing more than an imaginary friend created through years of study, prayer, and worship.

Thanks Kungfuzed and Katzpur for the evening conversation.... Your testimony Mr Tall White Filipino is what I have been trying to share with the LDS Christians for the last several months. So Mister Talll White Filipino...have you ever read the 13 Epistles of Paul in a modern English translation such as the NIV, NASB, or ESV? Are you an agnostic or an atheist? Maybe the Living God revealed in the Bible alone caused you to leave the LDS Faith? I have friends from Hawaii that were devout Mormon Christians. I surfed with them in my youth. There are no longer LDS but converted to the historic Christian Faith. And guess what, they love Hawaiian and Filipino food. Do you like poi, Lomi Salmon, and kalua pig too?

 

[Katzpur]

So, Mister Talll White Filipino...have you ever read the 13 Epistles of Paul in a modern English translation such as the NIV, NASB, or ESV? Are you an agnostic or an atheist? Maybe the God revealed in the Bible alone caused you to leave the LDS Faith?

They want to argue about religious dogma or nothing (with rare exceptions).

Ya gotta love it, dopp.

 

[Fish-Hunter]

Ya gotta love it, dopp.

It's better than watching TV. Or, at least until the Lakers are back on, right Orontes?

 

[Kungfuzed]

Thanks Kungfuzed and Katzpur for the evening conversation.... Your testimony Mr Tall White Filipino is what I have been trying to share with the LDS Christians for the last several months. So Mister Talll White Filipino...have you ever read the 13 Epistles of Paul in a modern English translation such as the NIV, NASB, or ESV? Are you an agnostic or an atheist? Maybe the Living God revealed in the Bible alone caused you to leave the LDS Faith? I have friends from Hawaii that were devout Mormon Christians. I surfed with them in my youth. There are no longer LDS but converted to the historic Christian Faith. And guess what, they love Hawaiian and Filipino food. Do you like poi, Lomi Salmon, and kalua pig too?

I've never been to Hawaii, but I do like pork and salmon. I'm not sure what poi is. I cook alot of adobo, pancit, and kari kari. Siopao is great too, but very time consuming to make. Halo halo is good, as long as there's no beans in it.

I have only read the KJV version of the bible, and not recently. Have you read the Book of Mormon? I admit, I haven't been following the Mormon threads. I'm not anti-mormon or anti-christian, I just don't believe in God. I don't read anti-mormon or anti-christian literature. I don't go around bashing any specific religion, but I do enjoy a good debate. I do consider Mormons to be Christians. I do think that many Christians, and even some Mormons, are trapped in Old Testament thinking, too focused on rewards and punishment, salvation and damnation, rather than the New Testament love, peace, and tolerance of Jesus Christ.

I might have been a good candidate to bible bash with you years ago as an LDS missionary, but any argument I give you now would be entirely philisophical or secular.

 

[doppelganger]

I'm not sure what poi is.

A paste made from Taro, a very starchy vegetable common to the Pacific Islands. EDIT: In the Philippines, you might know taro as "gabi".

 

[Fish-Hunter]

I've never been to Hawaii, but I do like pork and salmon. I'm not sure what poi is. I cook alot of adobo, pancit, and kari kari. Siopao is great too, but very time consuming to make. Halo halo is good, as long as there's no beans in it.

I have only read the KJV version of the bible, and not recently. Have you read the Book of Mormon? I admit, I haven't been following the Mormon threads. I'm not anti-mormon or anti-christian, I just don't believe in God. I don't read anti-mormon or anti-christian literature. I don't go around bashing any specific religion, but I do enjoy a good debate. I do consider Mormons to be Christians. I do think that many Christians, and even some Mormons, are trapped in Old Testament thinking, too focused on rewards and punishment, salvation and damnation, rather than the New Testament love, peace, and tolerance of Jesus Christ.

I might have been a good candidate to bible bash with you years ago as an LDS missionary, but any argument I give you now would be entirely philosophical or secular.

I know Mormon missionaries have shared in many of the Pacific Islands including Hawaii. My parents are from Hawaii, but we are Filipino in race. There is a greater diversity of food in Hawaii because of the racial melting pot. I have read parts of the Book of Mormon about 14 years ago. I read very little anti-Mormon or anti-Catholic material. I just try to know the Bible and compare and contrast it with other belief systems.

I really have no intentions of bashing Mormons or others. But I think biblical Christianity is both very exclusive and universal at the same time. By the grace of God, I am just sharing the God revealed in the Scriptures alone which is very exclusive. However, the biblical gospel is universal since God promises to redeem individuals from all tongue, tribes and nations on the earth. It seems you are not a staunch atheist, and might even be a philosophical agnostic. Do you mind sharing your philosophical perspective? Have you replaced your Mormon beliefs with a blend of eastern religion, or possibly a religious pluralism understanding of a higher power?

 

[Kungfuzed]

It seems you are not a staunch atheist, and might even be a philosophical agnostic. Do you mind sharing your philosophical perspective? Have you replaced your Mormon beliefs with a blend of eastern religion, or possibly a religious pluralism understanding of a higher power?

Well, I'm not exactly evangelical with my Atheism. I've still retained some of my LDS beliefs in living a clean life, staying healthy, and being true to my wife. My morality, for the most part, hasn't changed, though I no longer see anything morally wrong with pre-marital sex. I still don't drink, smoke, or do drugs, but I do drink coffee and tea. I have read some things on eastern religion and agree quit a bit with much of Budhism. Pantheism was interesting at one point but I never could get around to calling nature God. Currently, I believe that truth can be found practically everywhere and that no one has a monopoly on it. I've been leaning towards Unitarian Universalism and agree with their basic principles.

I believe we live in a completely physical world. I am not separate from the world, I am an inseparable part of the whole interconnected universe. I do not believe in an eternal soul or spirits or angels or ghosts. Free will, as we know it, is an illusion.

Tell me, what exactly is a historic Christian? Are you referring to before or after the Nicene Creed?

 

[Fish-Hunter]

Well, I'm not exactly evangelical with my Atheism. I've still retained some of my LDS beliefs in living a clean life, staying healthy, and being true to my wife. My morality, for the most part, hasn't changed, though I no longer see anything morally wrong with pre-marital sex. I still don't drink, smoke, or do drugs, but I do drink coffee and tea. I have read some things on eastern religion and agree quit a bit with much of Budhism. Pantheism was interesting at one point but I never could get around to calling nature God. Currently, I believe that truth can be found practically everywhere and that no one has a monopoly on it. I've been leaning towards Unitarian Universalism and agree with their basic principles.

I believe we live in a completely physical world. I am not separate from the world, I am an inseparable part of the whole interconnected universe. I do not believe in an eternal soul or spirits or angels or ghosts. Free will, as we know it, is an illusion.

Tell me, what exactly is a historic Christian? Are you referring to before or after the Nicene Creed?

I have to leave for a business meeting for the day. Historic Christianity can be studied by this site, okay? Several questions, how do you determine what is right and wrong if ideals are relative and subjective? Why is extra-martial sex morally wrong, and pre-martial sex morally right? Will you allow your children to practice pre-martial sex, and at what age? Do you believe in same sex marriage and why, and based on what source of truth?

Monergism.com :: Classic Articles and Resources of the Historic Christian Faith

 

[Kungfuzed]

I have to leave for a business meeting for the day. Historic Christianity can be studied by this site, okay? Several questions, how do you determine what is right and wrong if ideals are relative and subjective? Why is extra-martial sex morally wrong, and pre-martial sex morally right? Will you allow your children to practice pre-martial sex, and at what age? Do you believe in same sex marriage and why, and based on what source of truth?

Monergism.com :: Classic Articles and Resources of the Historic Christian Faith

Well, morality may vary from culture to culture and it does seem a bit subjective. For quite a while I wondered if anything could really be considered universally right or wrong. As a Christian, I used to beleive that everything good comes from God, that God has the ultimate say in what was good and evil. What I've come to realize lately is that for morality to be universal, there needs to be a common goal, a purpose to it that everyone can agree on. One goal I like is human flourishing. Ethics is based on what will lead to the flourishing of humankind as well as each one of us living a meaningful life. It could even be viewed as a science, not like chemistry or physics, but more like an ecology.

For me, extra-marital sex is wrong because I made a covenant with my wife that we would only have sex with each other. If I were to betray her trust it would destroy her. It would have a terrible effect on my own self-perspective as well. Ultimately, I would sacrifice my family for a few minuets of pleasure. Pre-marital sex has emotional and medical risks, but it is much easier to deal with if the people involved are educated, responsible, and emotionally stable. In fact, pre-marital sex can strengthen the bond of a couple who plan to get married in the future. They will also test their sexual compatibility.

I don't yet have any children with my current wife, but I have a daughter who lives with my ex wife who is turing 8 next month. Like I said earlier, sex requires a person to be educated, responsible, and emotionally stable. I would not allow her to have sex right now, even if she wanted to. Her mother is raising her LDS so I know she'll get plenty of encouragement to be abstinant. I can't guarantee that as a teenager she won't rebel. All I can do is educate her every chance I get and teach her to make wise decisions and to think before she acts. Then, when she's ready, she'll know when the time is right, and if she gets into trouble she'll be able to come to me without fear. As for an exact age where I would absolutely forbid it, I'm not so sure. Sixteen would be the lowest but it could easily go higher depending on her level of maturity and level of responsibility.

As for same sex marriage, I can't think of any reason why they should be excluded. Marriage is for people who love each other and want to be legally committed to each other and be family. People of the same sex are subject to the same rules as those of us who are straight, education, responsibility, and emotional stability. What source of truth? The truths of love, equality, and freedom.

We seem to have taken over Brendan's thread. If you would like to ask me more, feel free to start another one. I enjoy your questions.

 

[Fish-Hunter]

Well, morality may vary from culture to culture and it does seem a bit subjective. For quite a while I wondered if anything could really be considered universally right or wrong. As a Christian, I used to beleive that everything good comes from God, that God has the ultimate say in what was good and evil. What I've come to realize lately is that for morality to be universal, there needs to be a common goal, a purpose to it that everyone can agree on. One goal I like is human flourishing. Ethics is based on what will lead to the flourishing of humankind as well as each one of us living a meaningful life. It could even be viewed as a science, not like chemistry or physics, but more like an ecology.

For me, extra-marital sex is wrong because I made a covenant with my wife that we would only have sex with each other. If I were to betray her trust it would destroy her. It would have a terrible effect on my own self-perspective as well. Ultimately, I would sacrifice my family for a few minuets of pleasure. Pre-marital sex has emotional and medical risks, but it is much easier to deal with if the people involved are educated, responsible, and emotionally stable. In fact, pre-marital sex can strengthen the bond of a couple who plan to get married in the future. They will also test their sexual compatibility.

I don't yet have any children with my current wife, but I have a daughter who lives with my ex wife who is turing 8 next month. Like I said earlier, sex requires a person to be educated, responsible, and emotionally stable. I would not allow her to have sex right now, even if she wanted to. Her mother is raising her LDS so I know she'll get plenty of encouragement to be abstinant. I can't guarantee that as a teenager she won't rebel. All I can do is educate her every chance I get and teach her to make wise decisions and to think before she acts. Then, when she's ready, she'll know when the time is right, and if she gets into trouble she'll be able to come to me without fear. As for an exact age where I would absolutely forbid it, I'm not so sure. Sixteen would be the lowest but it could easily go higher depending on her level of maturity and level of responsibility.

As for same sex marriage, I can't think of any reason why they should be excluded. Marriage is for people who love each other and want to be legally committed to each other and be family. People of the same sex are subject to the same rules as those of us who are straight, education, responsibility, and emotional stability. What source of truth? The truths of love, equality, and freedom.

We seem to have taken over Brendan's thread. If you would like to ask me more, feel free to start another one. I enjoy your questions.

Thanks for your honesty and willingness to share. I do find it to be refreshing. I too enjoy your conversation. The tension that I seem to have with the Mormons on this site seems missing with you. Maybe there is no tension because you are no longer Mormon, or we both eat Filipino food. I'm not sure how to start a one on one thread, so please start it for me. I find your questions to be very interesting... about universal causes of mankind. I would like to hear about the universal common goals for all mankind. What are they, and can they be achieved in spite of the history of mankind? What do you mean by human flourishing? It seems life on earth is so temporal. I can agree with some of the goals of some secular humanists, but the question for me is about the ability of humanity to achieve these goals. I know some secular humanists will blame religion as a cause for preventing universal human flourishing. We do live in a global community, don't we?

On a personal level, I did not grow up a Christian. Therefore, I lived a life of pre-martial sex in my youth, and personally experienced the downside of it in more ways than you could imagine. I also observed the negative consequences of pre-martial sex with friends too. I'm not sure if I agree with you that education, responsible, and emotional stability are the requirements for pre-marital sex. It seems pre-martial sex can cause the best of us to act irresponsible and less emotionally stable. Sex is an act of passion, and not logic and reason. Therefore, pre-marital sex can cause people to act passionately irresponsible. Of course, abortion becomes an issue too. Since you no longer appear to believe in God, when do you think life begins, and why? Please send me a PM when you start a new one on one thread. I am looking forward to our future conversations.

 

[madhatter85]

I'm actually a white American who married a filipina. During courtship I developed a skill at cooking filipino food, and after visiting the country I have gained a love for the people and it's culture. I have a goal of retiring there some day. A while back I started a thread on how race isn't biological and is only a construct of society, and that I now declare myself a tall white filipino.

hey you sound like me except that i have never been to the philippines. My wife is an american citizen but she was born in the Visayas and moved here when she was 4. where is your wife from?