• Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:
    • Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
    • Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
    • Access to private conversations with other members.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!

Discussing religion vs. everything else

9-10ths_Penguin

1/10 Subway Stalinist
Premium Member
Thinking about a point raised recently on a podcast I listen to, along with some conversations I've seen here and elsewhere: many people impose strange standards on discussion of religion and gods that don't apply to... well... any other subject, AFAIK.

There are people who will absolutely freak out at people making definitive statements about gods ("you can't say you KNOW my god doesn't exist; have you looked everywhere?") but won't bat an eye at people making similarly definitive statements about other things. If I say "dodos are extinct", I'll just get nods from the people who were super-keen to jump all over any perceived gap in human knowledge as a place where they might stuff their god.

If I say "there are three supermarkets in my town", nobody tells me that there might be some secret supermarket that "elect" shoppers know about but nobody else does. Nobody tells me that my definition of "supermarket" is too narrow, and that by their definition ("a place where food is acquired") the entire town is a "supermarket" for animals.

I can't speak in generalities about religion without somebody saying that my generalities don't apply to the special snowflake of a religion that they came up with themselves (and that has so little weight in terms of the net effect of religion in general that it's less significant than rounding error). We don't get that on other topics.

In all the times that I've criticized the impact of cars and auto commuting on North American society, I've never had anyone object by saying that my criticisms don't apply to antique steam-powered cars that only get driven once a year in parades... despite the fact that such cars certainly do exist.

Anyhow, I'm not sure where I'm going with this othet than to vent my frustration, and to ask why we can't talk about gods and religions the way we talk about everything else.
 

A Vestigial Mote

Well-Known Member
I feel that people incorporate a "religion" and its practices into their lives in order to attempt to either garner "meaning" or as a vessel for searching for "meaning" in their lives. And people tend to take having "meaning" terribly seriously. Perhaps that sounds like I don't care about having "meaning" to my life - but that isn't it at all. I just don't take it so seriously. The idea itself is so subjective it falls off the charts. I think it scares people to think that they aren't "meant for something more". And fear can be quite an intimidating slave-driver.
 

ThePainefulTruth

Romantic-Cynic
Thinking about a point raised recently on a podcast I listen to, along with some conversations I've seen here and elsewhere: many people impose strange standards on discussion of religion and gods that don't apply to... well... any other subject, AFAIK.

There are people who will absolutely freak out at people making definitive statements about gods ("you can't say you KNOW my god doesn't exist; have you looked everywhere?") but won't bat an eye at people making similarly definitive statements about other things. If I say "dodos are extinct", I'll just get nods from the people who were super-keen to jump all over any perceived gap in human knowledge as a place where they might stuff their god.

If I say "there are three supermarkets in my town", nobody tells me that there might be some secret supermarket that "elect" shoppers know about but nobody else does. Nobody tells me that my definition of "supermarket" is too narrow, and that by their definition ("a place where food is acquired") the entire town is a "supermarket" for animals.

I can't speak in generalities about religion without somebody saying that my generalities don't apply to the special snowflake of a religion that they came up with themselves (and that has so little weight in terms of the net effect of religion in general that it's less significant than rounding error). We don't get that on other topics.

In all the times that I've criticized the impact of cars and auto commuting on North American society, I've never had anyone object by saying that my criticisms don't apply to antique steam-powered cars that only get driven once a year in parades... despite the fact that such cars certainly do exist.

Anyhow, I'm not sure where I'm going with this othet than to vent my frustration, and to ask why we can't talk about gods and religions the way we talk about everything else.

Well first, I don't think I'm picking a nit to say that there's another subject that is as volatile, politics. You know the old saying you can't discuss religion and politics in polite company--though one could say politics is a form of religion, with the church being a state sometimes in a theocracy, or religion being enforced by the state.

Anyway, to answer you're question why we can't talk about this stuff. I'm afraid the answer is both easy and frustrating, but it's because so many people rely on emotions, having never learned or been taught how to think rationally by guiding their emotions with reason--and almost always, the powers that be prefer it that way for obvious reason. And now, in the age of information and communication, those previous blind faith systems, in politics and religion, are coming under increasing assault, with the volume of denial via political correctness and intimidation, going up proportionately.

Of course that begs the question, what to do? Is this the fate of man, to go extinct cursing the darkness? We could turn the world over to AI if it's ever developed; but without emotions, which it isn't likely to have, it will only possess motivation via programming. Perhaps the Brave New World will form around a society that somehow combines those two "life" forms. Of course there will always be die hard emoters who will fight rationality in whatever form it appears. After all, without some of us choosing to do evil, there will be no anvil on which to exercise/forge free will in the pursuit of Truth.
 

ThePainefulTruth

Romantic-Cynic
I feel that people incorporate a "religion" and its practices into their lives in order to attempt to either garner "meaning" or as a vessel for searching for "meaning" in their lives. And people tend to take having "meaning" terribly seriously. Perhaps that sounds like I don't care about having "meaning" to my life - but that isn't it at all. I just don't take it so seriously. The idea itself is so subjective it falls off the charts. I think it scares people to think that they aren't "meant for something more". And fear can be quite an intimidating slave-driver.

As long as we remain mortal, most of us will wonder about meaning.
 

Erebus

Well-Known Member
Anyhow, I'm not sure where I'm going with this othet than to vent my frustration, and to ask why we can't talk about gods and religions the way we talk about everything else.

It's good to vent sometimes :)

I think the main difference between religion and the other things you mentioned is that religion is a very personal affair. Your religion has a significant impact on how you view the world and your place within it. Therefore it's much easier to take criticism or generalizations of your religion as a slight on you as a person, even if such a slight wasn't actually intended.

It's like if you were to create a painting, something that you've put a lot of yourself into and feel expresses who you are as a person. Then somebody says, "Yeah, I don't think paintings actually add anything of value to the world." Or something to that effect. That person isn't criticizing you personally, but they are criticizing something dear to you. As objective as we may try to be, it's very difficult to entirely separate yourself from these criticisms.

Hope that makes sense.
 

HonestJoe

Well-Known Member
I don’t think you’re quite right. Definitive statements about the existence of gods (or the lack of existence for that matter) are challenged when they’re being used as primary assumptions for the basis of definitive conclusions. Any unsupported assumption will be challenged if people disagree with the conclusion though – that happens in political discussions all the time, often as aggressively and divisively as there are in theological ones.

I think the difference will be that assumptions about gods are commonly held as specific positions in their own right while assumptions in other areas are more often only considerations in the context of a specific discussion. People will be more willing to adjust other types of assumption (as long as they can still get to their preferred conclusion) but assumptions about gods will often be held to the death regardless.
 

9-10ths_Penguin

1/10 Subway Stalinist
Premium Member
It's like if you were to create a painting, something that you've put a lot of yourself into and feel expresses who you are as a person. Then somebody says, "Yeah, I don't think paintings actually add anything of value to the world." Or something to that effect. That person isn't criticizing you personally, but they are criticizing something dear to you. As objective as we may try to be, it's very difficult to entirely separate yourself from these criticisms.
Not quite, because none of the points I gave spoke to values. They certainly spoke to facts that underpin many people's values, but that isn't the same thing.
 

Erebus

Well-Known Member
Not quite, because none of the points I gave spoke to values. They certainly spoke to facts that underpin many people's values, but that isn't the same thing.

OK. I think I may have either missed the point of the OP there or we just view these things from very different angles.

I'll go and ponder this for a while and come back if I think I have something more to say :)
 

RedDragon94

Love everyone, meditate often
Thinking about a point raised recently on a podcast I listen to, along with some conversations I've seen here and elsewhere: many people impose strange standards on discussion of religion and gods that don't apply to... well... any other subject, AFAIK.

There are people who will absolutely freak out at people making definitive statements about gods ("you can't say you KNOW my god doesn't exist; have you looked everywhere?") but won't bat an eye at people making similarly definitive statements about other things. If I say "dodos are extinct", I'll just get nods from the people who were super-keen to jump all over any perceived gap in human knowledge as a place where they might stuff their god.

If I say "there are three supermarkets in my town", nobody tells me that there might be some secret supermarket that "elect" shoppers know about but nobody else does. Nobody tells me that my definition of "supermarket" is too narrow, and that by their definition ("a place where food is acquired") the entire town is a "supermarket" for animals.

I can't speak in generalities about religion without somebody saying that my generalities don't apply to the special snowflake of a religion that they came up with themselves (and that has so little weight in terms of the net effect of religion in general that it's less significant than rounding error). We don't get that on other topics.

In all the times that I've criticized the impact of cars and auto commuting on North American society, I've never had anyone object by saying that my criticisms don't apply to antique steam-powered cars that only get driven once a year in parades... despite the fact that such cars certainly do exist.

Anyhow, I'm not sure where I'm going with this othet than to vent my frustration, and to ask why we can't talk about gods and religions the way we talk about everything else.
I feel like religion is the only place where you try to follow your heart logically. Every other decision is made or should be made with the head (or the intellect) primarily. In a way I think that atheists neglect themselves emotionally as far as trying to live without a belief in God.
 

LuisDantas

Aura of atheification
Premium Member
I feel like religion is the only place where you try to follow your heart logically.

I don't think "logically" is the proper word to use here. You may mean "impulsively" or perhaps "without compromise".

Every other decision is made or should be made with the head (or the intellect) primarily.

I don't think this is particularly accurate for anyone.

In a way I think that atheists neglect themselves emotionally as far as trying to live without a belief in God.
That might perhaps be true if belief in God were emotionally significant. For atheists, it obviously isn't. And frankly, it is not all that important for many theists either.
 

RedDragon94

Love everyone, meditate often
I don't think "logically" is the proper word to use here. You may mean "impulsively" or perhaps "without compromise".
What I mean is that beliefs must be consistent if they are to be taken seriously.
I don't think this is particularly accurate for anyone.
You don't think things through before you choose to stand for something?
That might perhaps be true if belief in God were emotionally significant. For atheists, it obviously isn't. And frankly, it is not all that important for many theists either.
I read in my psychology textbook that religious faith is essential to a healthy lifestyle.
 

LuisDantas

Aura of atheification
Premium Member
What I mean is that beliefs must be consistent if they are to be taken seriously.

And... should they? Is consistency even a positive quality for beliefs? Is it even reasonable to expect beliefs to be suitable to such serious examination?

I am inclined to doubt it.

You don't think things through before you choose to stand for something?

Not all that consistently. Often enough it is not even worth the trouble to try. Of course there are times when it is very important to, as well.

I read in my psychology textbook that religious faith is essential to a healthy lifestyle.

That can only be accurate by a very broad, sweeping understanding of "religious faith". Rest assured, belief in god is not a part of that definition.
 

RedDragon94

Love everyone, meditate often
Is it even reasonable to expect beliefs to be suitable to such serious examination?
Sure it is, if you don't examine and reexamine your beliefs then there's not point in having them. Beliefs are there to help us grow not stay the same.
Often enough it is not even worth the trouble to try.
What about politics, I'm sure there's a point in taking a side there. The way we feel about things politically has a lot to do with personal beliefs.
That can only be accurate by a very broad, sweeping understanding of "religious faith". Rest assured, belief in god is not a part of that definition.
Fine, but the point is... It is good to believe in something.
 

9-10ths_Penguin

1/10 Subway Stalinist
Premium Member
I feel like religion is the only place where you try to follow your heart logically. Every other decision is made or should be made with the head (or the intellect) primarily.
I take it that you've never been in love.

In a way I think that atheists neglect themselves emotionally as far as trying to live without a belief in God.
How so?

Setting aside the question of the existence of gods, what emotional need does belief in God fulfill for you that can't be fulfilled some other way for an atheist?
 

LuisDantas

Aura of atheification
Premium Member
Sure it is, if you don't examine and reexamine your beliefs then there's not point in having them. Beliefs are there to help us grow not stay the same.

I so disagree. Religious beliefs are just not suitable to such abusive expectations, IMO. Attempting to perceive them quite that seriously is just not healthy.

What about politics, I'm sure there's a point in taking a side there. The way we feel about things politically has a lot to do with personal beliefs.
I'm not following.

Fine, but the point is... It is good to believe in something.

You will need to put a lot more meat in those bones before I see any meaning in there, let alone consider agreeing with it.

What am I supposed to understand by "belief in something"?
 
Top