Did Jesus say he was God???

[1robin]

at Quran :
In the Name of Allah, Most Gracious, Most Merciful.
1. Say: He is Allah, the One;
2. Allah, the Eternal, Absolute;
3. He begetteth not, nor is He begotten;
4. And there is none like unto Him. 112.İkhlas

Don't forget the greatest of schemers.

 

[1robin]

I believe this is all true and Jesus is one with Allah meaning that is His identity.

How can that be since "Allah" said Christ did not die on the cross?

 

[Muffled]

How can that be since "Allah" said Christ did not die on the cross?

I believe He didn't and if you understood your Bible you would know that.

I believe it appears that Jesus died on the cross and often the apostles will report what appears to them while God knows what really happened.

 

[Muffled]

Ok two things...Notice, if there--God was a trinity, Jesus never prayed or gave thanks to the "3rd half" of His Father/God [Well for that fact, tell me how Jesus calls His Father God, if He is God? [check Revelation where after Jesus was raised to glory, He still mentions He has a God]] and also notice that there must be something extremely wrong with Paul because in every one of his epistles' introductions he mentions the Father and the Son, never the Holy Spirit. Either something is wrong with T(t)hem, or with people who believe in the trinity.

Nice try. By that logic then one can say this; God gave His Son, then Jesus gives Himself for other people, the world. Is He considered less than you now? Another note, God the Father is not a created being or thing, His Son is. How is some thing created the exact same thing as the thing that created it?

Ok this is where my premise starts, quote "no man has seen God at anytime", "seen His shape", "heard His voice". Now square the trinity with those quotes from scripture. If Jesus is the Father, you know God of Gods, then you have a major contradiction on your hands and many many many scriptures you have to rip out your bible.

You can link this part with my last statement, how do you square no man has seen or heard God or seen His shape yet Jesus was seen and heard? Even if its just "parts of God", Jesus said no man has seen His shape or form---Moses seen Gods back parts. Adam talked to God and the gospels...many talked to with Jesus, You have a major contradiction to defend with the trinity.



Notice that last sentence. You used it to prove your first, so now square that up with this

1 Cor 15:46 The spiritual did not come first, but the natural, and after that the spiritual. The first man was of the dust of the earth; the second man is of heaven... 49 And just as we have borne [Sounds like he is talking present tense right?] the image of the earthly man, so shall we [that sounds like some time in the future doesn't it?] bear the image of the heavenly man.

I know in some sects of Christianity they teach we are spirit beings [which means man has an immortal soul and therefore never really die when they die] in physical bodies but that doesn't square up with those verses and tons of others.



Whoa whoa, careful what you say now, not for my sake but for your sake. You have almost said that Jesus isnt the express image of His Father and that He wasn't the perfect example of everything God gave to man. Don't get me wrong I know what you are saying, Im just saying be careful.

But anyway, until we reach PERFECTION like Jesus, Jesus IS all of the perceived portion of God. Let me let you know a little secret that I think you already know. In short, Jesus is His Fathers proof of what He [the Father] can do AND will do to each and everyone who was every created/born...so that "God will be ALL IN ALL" or better stated, we will be just like Him, Jesus. Now if you can ungrasp the trinity doctrine you can see that Jesus is called God and guess what? We will be just like Him [1 John 3:2].

1 Corinthians 15:28
When he [He who? God the Father] has done this, then the Son himself will be made subject to him [How so? If the trinity is three co-equal parts of God?]who put everything under him, so that God may be all in all. ...

That above verse means nothing if you are still believing in a trinity...you can not and will not see it hence my earlier statement you highlighted...

"the trinity is because the trinity doctrine will blind people from seeing that the Father and the Son are not the same entity" and let me add this God is a expanding family aka Father, Son then the firstfruits then eventually everyone and thing else will be included [sons and daughters]

I believe this is the null hypothesis. To prove it one must show that it was necessary for Jesus to pray to the Paraclete. I believe there are two things that mitigate against this 1. The Paraclete wasn't given until after Jesus died 2. The paraclete is below Jesus on the heirarchy. I believe none of this is contrary to Jesus being God in the flesh.

Joh 8:54 Jesus answered, If I glorify myself, my glory is nothing: it is my Father that glorifieth me; of whom ye say, that he is your God;

I believe this has been argued on here before and the answer is the same. God is His own God.

I believe this is the null hypothesis again and since your premise isn't provable your conclusion is not valid.

I believe I already have ie God is a Spirit.

I believe the spirit of God is in Jesus which is part of the makeup of Jesus. The body was created but the Spirit was not. I would never say that the body of Jesus is God. However a person is characterized by the spirit within. So to answer your question Jesus is not exactly God but the Spirit within is and Jesus is not Jesus without that Spirit.

I believe Jesus is not the Father; He is God in the flesh. The Father is God outside the Flesh. God is one no matter where He is.

I believe no man has heard God speak as a man until Jesus. God was heard by the prophets but not with a human voice. In order to speak as a human one must occupy the human. So if I say no-one in the 1600's ever saw the Empire State building, would you say that building never existed?

I believe you must be reading the necromonicon because My Bible clearly indicates that everyone has a spirit.

 

[1robin]

I believe He didn't and if you understood your Bible you would know that.

I believe it appears that Jesus died on the cross and often the apostles will report what appears to them while God knows what really happened.

What? You believe who did not what? Are you suggesting Christ did not die on the cross? If not then what did happen?

 

[AK4]

I believe this is the null hypothesis. To prove it one must show that it was necessary for Jesus to pray to the Paraclete. I believe there are two things that mitigate against this 1. The Paraclete wasn't given until after Jesus died 2. The paraclete is below Jesus on the heirarchy. I believe none of this is contrary to Jesus being God in the flesh.

Oh really? You don't know that the scriptures say that Jesus IS the paraclete?

And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever; [John 14:16]

My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:[1 John 2:1]

paraklétos: called to one's aid
Original Word: παράκλητος, ου, ὁ
Part of Speech: Noun, Masculine
Transliteration: paraklétos
Phonetic Spelling: (par-ak'-lay-tos)
Short Definition: an advocate, comforter, helper, Paraclete
Definition: (a) an advocate, intercessor, (b) a consoler, comforter, helper, (c) Paraclete.
HELPS Word-studies

3875 paráklētos (from 3844 /pará, "from close-beside" and 2564 /kaléō, "make a call") – properly, a legal advocate who makes the right judgment-call because close enough to the situation. 3875 /paráklētos ("advocate, advisor-helper") is the regular term in NT times of an attorney (lawyer) – i.e. someone giving evidence that stands up in court.


Jesus never prayed to the Holy Spirit. He only prayed to His Father. And further more, can you see where you are speaking in contradictions to defend this false doctrine? You say "The paraclete is below Jesus on the hierarchy", now how in a trinity [which is 3 CO-EQUAL parts] can one be above or below the other? And that's just the beginning of the problems you presented here. You have:

A Father the same age as a Son
the Sent equal with the Sender
the Son speaking only the Father words and not the holy spirits' words
the Father committing all judgment to Himself
the only begotten Son sitting in the bosom of Himself
the Son sent the Son to be the Saviour of the world [1 John 4:14]
Jesus speaking for Himself and glorifying Himself
etc etc etc etc etc

Joh 8:54 Jesus answered, If I glorify myself, my glory is nothing: it is my Father that glorifieth me; of whom ye say, that he is your God;

Ok I give you some leeway only because it seems like you do not know that the word "god" is a title and not the name of God. The title god can be given to many things...proof 1 Cor 8:5

5For even if there are so-called gods whether in heaven or on earth, as indeed there are many gods and many lords, 6yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom are all things and we exist for Him; and one Lord, Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we exist through Him.

And notice verse 6, Paul is in severe trouble for not mentioning the holy spirit here isn't he? I'll reiterate, "yet for US there is but ONE GOD, THE FATHER...and ONE LORD, JESUS CHRIST. Why didn't Paul say there is one God, the Father and one Lord, Jesus Christ and also the smallest, least powerful of the Godhead, the Holy Spirit?

I believe this has been argued on here before and the answer is the same. God is His own God.

Maybe it has but maybe not clearly or effectively. God is His own God, hmmm so the Father is His own Father as well? Doesn't make sense does it? Neither does saying God is His own God.

I believe this is the null hypothesis again and since your premise isn't provable your conclusion is not valid.

I don't understand how you can say "my hypothesis" is unprovable. Did I not reference all of Pauls writings---pick a book, verse 1 and maybe 2. That's thirteen proofs there. I just showed you how John knew Jesus is the holy spirit [paraclete]. Shall I go on?

I believe I already have ie God is a Spirit.

God is spirit. Not A spirit. Check an interlinear dictionary. the A is not there. Since you think God is A spirit, you equate "no man has seen or heard God" with spirit beings and that no one has seen or heard them right? Check your bible and you will find that that is not true either. Many have spoke to and seen spirits in the bible.

I believe the spirit of God is in Jesus which is part of the makeup of Jesus. The body was created but the Spirit was not. I would never say that the body of Jesus is God. However a person is characterized by the spirit within. So to answer your question Jesus is not exactly God but the Spirit within is and Jesus is not Jesus without that Spirit.

This statement is contradictory to all your other statements on the trinity. Or better stated this is doublespeak. You say one thing at one time and then flip the next

You say: Jesus is not exactly God but He is God and...
But the spirit within is [God] but its the lesser of the 3

That's doublespeak. "Jesus is not God but He is because He is part of the trinity. He is the second part of 3 equal parts but He is more powerful than holy spirit. But see the holy spirit is in Him and that therefore makes Him God"

I believe Jesus is not the Father; He is God in the flesh. The Father is God outside the Flesh. God is one no matter where He is.

So since Jesus is not the Father but God in the flesh and God is one, do you see the contradiction in your statement? Since by your thinking God is one and Jesus is God, when God came became flesh so did the Father become flesh and so did the holy spirit. Im sorry but there is no way the trinity can make any logical sense.

I believe no man has heard God speak as a man until Jesus. God was heard by the prophets but not with a human voice. In order to speak as a human one must occupy the human. So if I say no-one in the 1600's ever saw the Empire State building, would you say that building never existed?

Jesus is the spokesman and no man has heard the Father so by deduction that means the God of the OT is Jesus and not the Father. The God can speak as a human through whatever He wants ie burning bush and through angels. So your analogy falls short.

I believe you must be reading the necromonicon because My Bible clearly indicates that everyone has a spirit.

Lol the necronomicon? Hilarious. One would have to believe that death or dead doesn't mean death or dead. The scriptures clearly state that the dead are dead, not alive without a body. Would you like some concrete scriptures to prove this?

What are the scriptures that say we have a spirit?---that's our own.

 

[Muffled]

What? You believe who did not what? Are you suggesting Christ did not die on the cross? If not then what did happen?

The Spirit left then the body died.

Lu 23:46 And Jesus, crying with a loud voice, said, Father, into thy hands I commend my spirit: and having said this, he gave up the ghost.

 

[Muffled]

Oh really? You don't know that the scriptures say that Jesus IS the paraclete?

And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever; [John 14:16]

My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:[1 John 2:1]

paraklétos: called to one's aid
Original Word: παράκλητος, ου, ὁ
Part of Speech: Noun, Masculine
Transliteration: paraklétos
Phonetic Spelling: (par-ak'-lay-tos)
Short Definition: an advocate, comforter, helper, Paraclete
Definition: (a) an advocate, intercessor, (b) a consoler, comforter, helper, (c) Paraclete.
HELPS Word-studies

3875 paráklētos (from 3844 /pará, "from close-beside" and 2564 /kaléō, "make a call") – properly, a legal advocate who makes the right judgment-call because close enough to the situation. 3875 /paráklētos ("advocate, advisor-helper") is the regular term in NT times of an attorney (lawyer) – i.e. someone giving evidence that stands up in court.

Jesus never prayed to the Holy Spirit. He only prayed to His Father. And further more, can you see where you are speaking in contradictions to defend this false doctrine? You say "The paraclete is below Jesus on the hierarchy", now how in a trinity [which is 3 CO-EQUAL parts] can one be above or below the other? And that's just the beginning of the problems you presented here. You have:

A Father the same age as a Son
the Sent equal with the Sender
the Son speaking only the Father words and not the holy spirits' words
the Father committing all judgment to Himself
the only begotten Son sitting in the bosom of Himself
the Son sent the Son to be the Saviour of the world [1 John 4:14]
Jesus speaking for Himself and glorifying Himself
etc etc etc etc etc

Ok I give you some leeway only because it seems like you do not know that the word "god" is a title and not the name of God. The title god can be given to many things...proof 1 Cor 8:5

5For even if there are so-called gods whether in heaven or on earth, as indeed there are many gods and many lords, 6yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom are all things and we exist for Him; and one Lord, Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we exist through Him.

And notice verse 6, Paul is in severe trouble for not mentioning the holy spirit here isn't he? I'll reiterate, "yet for US there is but ONE GOD, THE FATHER...and ONE LORD, JESUS CHRIST. Why didn't Paul say there is one God, the Father and one Lord, Jesus Christ and also the smallest, least powerful of the Godhead, the Holy Spirit?

Maybe it has but maybe not clearly or effectively. God is His own God, hmmm so the Father is His own Father as well? Doesn't make sense does it? Neither does saying God is His own God.

I don't understand how you can say "my hypothesis" is unprovable. Did I not reference all of Pauls writings---pick a book, verse 1 and maybe 2. That's thirteen proofs there. I just showed you how John knew Jesus is the holy spirit [paraclete]. Shall I go on?

God is spirit. Not A spirit. Check an interlinear dictionary. the A is not there. Since you think God is A spirit, you equate "no man has seen or heard God" with spirit beings and that no one has seen or heard them right? Check your bible and you will find that that is not true either. Many have spoke to and seen spirits in the bible.

This statement is contradictory to all your other statements on the trinity. Or better stated this is doublespeak. You say one thing at one time and then flip the next

You say: Jesus is not exactly God but He is God and...
But the spirit within is [God] but its the lesser of the 3

That's doublespeak. "Jesus is not God but He is because He is part of the trinity. He is the second part of 3 equal parts but He is more powerful than holy spirit. But see the holy spirit is in Him and that therefore makes Him God"


So since Jesus is not the Father but God in the flesh and God is one, do you see the contradiction in your statement? Since by your thinking God is one and Jesus is God, when God came became flesh so did the Father become flesh and so did the holy spirit. Im sorry but there is no way the trinity can make any logical sense.

Jesus is the spokesman and no man has heard the Father so by deduction that means the God of the OT is Jesus and not the Father. The God can speak as a human through whatever He wants ie burning bush and through angels. So your analogy falls short.

Lol the necronomicon? Hilarious. One would have to believe that death or dead doesn't mean death or dead. The scriptures clearly state that the dead are dead, not alive without a body. Would you like some concrete scriptures to prove this?

What are the scriptures that say we have a spirit?---that's our own.

I believe the scriptures do not say that Jesus is the Paraclete. Nowhere does it say that the actual body of Jesus exists in believers despite the Roman Catholic nonsense of eating His flesh.

I believe Parakletos is actually two words put together to make one word like something in English whch is the combination of some and thing. Para means along side as in parachute and paraglider. Kletos is similar to ecclesia which basicly means the body of believers. So the Paraclete is one who is alongside the body of believers. There is no suggestion of comforter or counsellor in those words. Those concepts come from other verses that describe what the Paraclete does.

I believe co-equality is a theological myth. I am not equal to myself when I drive a car and when I walk. When I drive a car I am much faster than when I walk. (I have to add these similes because you have trouble understanding things)

I believe none of these are problems but I will have great fun with you trying to prove that they are.

I believe that doesn't fit the context.

I have to explain this to you? I believe an earthly father can't be his own father unless he time travels and that would be so perverse to do that. A heavenly Father is such by the fact that He creates and does not have a father because He is uncreated. Whether God has a God is His choice is it not? I believe He would only choose Himself because He wouldn't want any gods before Him.

I believe you lack understanding of waht is proof. References are not proof they are evidence. As in a trial the person isn't proven guilty unless the evidence is considered convincing. So it is with proving theories about the Bible that just presenting evidence doesn't necessarily mean that the case for the theory has been proven.

I believe I already showed that you didn't prove this and that your evidence was not convincing.

I believe it wouldn't matter to me what a dictionary says on this matter, saying God is spirit would mean that he incorporates every person as the Hindus believe but the fact is that our spirits are creations of God and separate entities from Him.

I beleive I spoke correctly. I also believe that you have incorrectly assessed what I said. The Spirit is not the Paraclete. The Paraclete is Spirit and man joned together. Because of the element of man the Paraclete is the least representation of the Spirit. God does not have to present His entire being in order to be God wherever He is. He is one.

I beleive you should try reading with comprehension because I said the Fathe is God outside of the flesh so the Father can't be God within the flesh. God within the flesh is Jesus.

 

[jah59]

1robin: What? You believe who did not what? Are you suggesting Christ did not die on the cross? If not then what did happen?

The Spirit left then the body died.

Lu 23:46 And Jesus, crying with a loud voice, said, Father, into thy hands I commend my spirit: and having said this, he gave up the ghost.

Okay, I can't just let this one pass. I suppose Jesus was sitting in a fishing boat in Luke 23:46? Seriously???

 

[AK4]

Originally Posted by Muffled
I believe you lack understanding of waht is proof. References are not proof they are evidence. As in a trial the person isn't proven guilty unless the evidence is considered convincing. So it is with proving theories about the Bible that just presenting evidence doesn't necessarily mean that the case for the theory has been proven.

Now you do realize that you are debating against the scriptures and not me. I show proof of my statements with scriptures. How you figure that references is not proof is baffling. Referencing a fact to prove your point---seems to be the only way to prove a statement and yet the scriptures back me up too---
Now as I reference these scriptures as proof, will you deny the proof I reference?

2 cor 13:1 This will be my third visit to you. "Every matter must be established by the testimony of two or three witnesses."

maybe Paul only referenced Jesus, but not as proof as you say.

Matthew 18:16 But if they will not listen, take one or two others along, so that 'every matter may be established by the testimony of two or three witnesses.' ...

Wait Jesus just referenced Moses...

Deut 19:15 One witness is not enough to convict anyone accused of any crime or offense they may have committed. A matter must be established by the testimony of two or three witnesses.

And Moses got it from God. Do you still wanna keep your position now?

I believe the scriptures do not say that Jesus is the Paraclete. Nowhere does it say that the actual body of Jesus exists in believers despite the Roman Catholic nonsense of eating His flesh.

You must think Christ has a physical body. To parrot Paul "don't you know that flesh and blood can not inherit the Kingdom of God" Now More references:

Gal 2:20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me. [Well Christ is in Paul here]

And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever; [John 14:16] Who ever this Comforter is, He will abide in whoever Jesus is praying for to the Father]

My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:[1 John 2:1] [WAIT whats that? The adovocate, which is the same word from John 14:16 [the Paraklete/Comforter], is given a nname now and whats that name--Jesus Christ the righteous

Those darn references again...

I believe Parakletos is actually two words put together to make one word like something in English whch is the combination of some and thing. Para means along side as in parachute and paraglider. Kletos is similar to ecclesia which basicly means the body of believers. So the Paraclete is one who is alongside the body of believers. There is no suggestion of comforter or counsellor in those words. Those concepts come from other verses that describe what the Paraclete does.

Did you just ignore what I referenced from Strongs?

paraklétos: called to one's aid
Original Word: παράκλητος, ου, ὁ
Part of Speech: Noun, Masculine
Transliteration: paraklétos
Phonetic Spelling: (par-ak'-lay-tos)
Short Definition: an advocate, comforter, helper, Paraclete
Definition: (a) an advocate, intercessor, (b) a consoler, comforter, helper, (c) Paraclete.
HELPS Word-studies

3875 paráklētos (from 3844 /pará, "from close-beside" AND 2564 /kaléō, "make a call") – properly, a legal advocate who makes the right judgment-call because close enough to the situation. 3875 /paráklētos ("advocate, advisor-helper") is the regular term in NT times of an attorney (lawyer) – i.e. someone giving evidence that stands up in court.

I believe co-equality is a theological myth. I am not equal to myself when I drive a car and when I walk. When I drive a car I am much faster than when I walk. (I have to add these similes because you have trouble understanding things)

So is the trinity. There are no scriptures to substantiate such a myth.

I believe it wouldn't matter to me what a dictionary says on this matter, saying God is spirit would mean that he incorporates every person as the Hindus believe but the fact is that our spirits are creations of God and separate entities from Him.

So which is true? Your statement or this scripture (pick a version)

New International Version
For in him we live and move and have our being.' As some of your own poets have said, 'We are his offspring.'

New Living Translation
For in him we live and move and exist. As some of your own poets have said, 'We are his offspring.'

English Standard Version
for “‘In him we live and move and have our being’; as even some of your own poets have said, “‘For we are indeed his offspring.’

New American Standard Bible
for in Him we live and move and exist, as even some of your own poets have said, 'For we also are His children.'

King James Bible
For in him we live, and move, and have our being; as certain also of your own poets have said, For we are also his offspring.

Holman Christian Standard Bible
For in Him we live and move and exist, as even some of your own poets have said, 'For we are also His offspring.'



I love the fact that you threw in "that the Hindus believe" as if they didn't have some truths in some of their beliefs. Maybe they know more about spiritual things than Christianity.

I believe that doesn't fit the context.

Since the word god is a title, it can be given to who ever or what ever. The proof of that is everywhere. Now since Jesus' Father gave Him all that He is, including His name and the title God, and that Jesus can do all that his Father can do, He is called God.

I beleive you should try reading with comprehension because I said the Fathe is God outside of the flesh so the Father can't be God within the flesh. God within the flesh is Jesus.

Does Jesus have a fleshy, physical body or a spiritual body?

When Jesus says something about God while He [Jesus] was on the earth in the flesh, was the Father God or was Jesus lying?

 

[1robin]

The Spirit left then the body died.

Lu 23:46 And Jesus, crying with a loud voice, said, Father, into thy hands I commend my spirit: and having said this, he gave up the ghost.

Ok but what does that negate that I said. What is the argument?

 

[Muffled]

Okay, I can't just let this one pass. I suppose Jesus was sitting in a fishing boat in Luke 23:46? Seriously???

I believe you know very well that Jesus was on the cross and not in a fishing boat. However once the Spirit left the body it would no longer be distinguihable from the Father and therefore Jesus can say that He retruns to the Father. I believe spirits don't sit but they can prooject an image of sitting and God can be anywhere He wishes to be because He is already everywhere.

I believe I take the Bible very seriously and hope you do also.

 

[Muffled]

Ok but what does that negate that I said. What is the argument?

I believe for Jesus to die the Holy Spirit had to be in the body. Without the Holy Spirit it was just the body of Jesus that died. So when God gives His message in the Qu'ran He can say that because it is so.

I believe the effect is the same in that Jesus ends up dead but He did not die, He left. I believe this is not unheard of. People have left their bodies before our time and then returned to the body later. For Jesus leaving the body meant that it would die more quickly which agrees with the Biblical account that Jesus should not have been dead when they went to take him down from the cross but He was.

 

[Muffled]

Quoting AK4
Did you just ignore what I referenced from Strongs?

paraklétos: called to one's aid
Original Word: παράκλητος, ου, ὁ
Part of Speech: Noun, Masculine
Transliteration: paraklétos
Phonetic Spelling: (par-ak'-lay-tos)
Short Definition: an advocate, comforter, helper, Paraclete
Definition: (a) an advocate, intercessor, (b) a consoler, comforter, helper, (c) Paraclete.
HELPS Word-studies
1875 paráklētos (from 3844 /pará, "from close-beside" AND 2564 /kaléō, "make a call") – properly, a legal advocate who makes the right judgment-call because close enough to the situation. 3875 /paráklētos ("advocate, advisor-helper") is the regular term in NT times of an attorney (lawyer) – i.e. someone giving evidence that stands up in court.

I believe Strongs and other scholars are in error on their intepetation of the word Kletos. I say interpetation because I have seen nothing to suggest that the meaning of the word was understood but only that they guessed the meaning from context and guessed wrong.

John 14:16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may be with you for ever,

I beleive this is the context. The Paraclete is another Jesus. What is Jesus to His disciples? He is a companion ie one who is alongside their bodies. I would settle for the word companion which may be as close a translation as possible. This fits in with the other use of the word in the book of Job that they were companions even when they said nothing or said the worng things. However people who say the wrong things are poor company but it does not change the fact that they are company. When they say the wrong things they are not poor comforters at all because they are acutally causing discomfort. It might help to see what the Hebrew word was.

 

[`mud]

hey Muff...or other's interested
Since God is everywhere, wasn't He inside of Jesus' body also ?
And with that thinking, wasn't He the spirit that occupied the soul of Jesus ?
Isn't God and Jesus one and the same, of the same spirit, Jesus being the son of Him ?
Our we supposed to think that God was talking to Himself ?
~
In my simple mind....that doesn't make much sense to my way of thinking,
but I'm a non-theist and I guess I can't understand the doings of your God.
Forgive the interuption...but I was just wandering and wondering.
~
'mud

 

[Muffled]

hey Muff...or other's interested
Since God is everywhere, wasn't He inside of Jesus' body also ?
And with that thinking, wasn't He the spirit that occupied the soul of Jesus ?
Isn't God and Jesus one and the same, of the same spirit, Jesus being the son of Him ?
Our we supposed to think that God was talking to Himself ?
~
In my simple mind....that doesn't make much sense to my way of thinking,
but I'm a non-theist and I guess I can't understand the doings of your God.
Forgive the interuption...but I was just wandering and wondering.
~
'mud

I believe He is but that is in addition to the connection with the body that makes it a soul. I have been bugged by an evil spirit before but I would never let one make a connection.

I believe He occupied the body of Jesus causing it to become a soul.

No, I believe Jesus is God in the flesh. God is everywhere so He cant be viewed as just existing in Jesus.

I believe The same Spirit to be correct.

I believe Jesus is a son and He is of God so put together that makes Him a son of God. Howeveer God doesn't have sons so there is no conecpt of God begetting a son. Again He is begotten of Mary and is of God so putting the two together He is begotten of God.

I beleive so.

If you tell me you never talk to yourself then I will understand why it seems strange to you. I talk to myself all the time, probably because I am very aware of my abiding spirit so it seems quite normal to me.

I believe thinking helps keep the mind healthy. I heartily encourage it.

 

[`mud]

hey Muff.

OK
~
'mud

 

[jah59]

I believe for Jesus to die the Holy Spirit had to be in the body. Without the Holy Spirit it was just the body of Jesus that died. So when God gives His message in the Qu'ran He can say that because it is so.

I believe the effect is the same in that Jesus ends up dead but He did not die, He left. I believe this is not unheard of. People have left their bodies before our time and then returned to the body later. For Jesus leaving the body meant that it would die more quickly which agrees with the Biblical account that Jesus should not have been dead when they went to take him down from the cross but He was.

So just because his body died while on the cross, that doesn't mean the man Jesus died on the cross. Is that what you believe? Since you take the Bible very seriously, what do you think it means in 1 Corinthians 15:1-4 where Paul refers to the gospel that saves as Jesus' death, burial and resurrection?
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Now, brothers and sisters, I want to remind you of the gospel I preached to you, which you received and on which you have taken your stand. By this gospel you are saved, if you hold firmly to the word I preached to you. Otherwise, you have believed in vain. For what I received I passed on to you as of first importance: that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, that he was buried, that he was raised on the third day according to the Scriptures,

Zondervan (2010-12-26). Holy Bible (NIV) (p. 1049). Zondervan. Kindle Edition.

________________________
I firmly believe that when God wants to emphasize a matter in his written word such as in John 1:3, Colossians 1:15-17, and 1 John 4:8, He so inspires it that it is difficult, if not impossible to mistranslate.
Learn about the Bible by mail or online-for free!

 

[1robin]

So just because his body died while on the cross, that doesn't mean the man Jesus died on the cross. Is that what you believe? Since you take the Bible very seriously, what do you think it means in 1 Corinthians 15:1-4 where Paul refers to the gospel that saves as Jesus' death, burial and resurrection?
---
Now, brothers and sisters, I want to remind you of the gospel I preached to you, which you received and on which you have taken your stand. By this gospel you are saved, if you hold firmly to the word I preached to you. Otherwise, you have believed in vain. For what I received I passed on to you as of first importance: that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, that he was buried, that he was raised on the third day according to the Scriptures,

Zondervan (2010-12-26). Holy Bible (NIV) (p. 1049). Zondervan. Kindle Edition.

________________________
I firmly believe that when God wants to emphasize a matter in his written word such as in John 1:3, Colossians 1:15-17, and 1 John 4:8, He so inspires it that it is difficult, if not impossible to mistranslate.
Learn about the Bible by mail or online-for free!

Sorry to but in but salvation is my favorite subject. Jesus suffered in our place. So he experienced what would have happened to me had I died without accepting him. The key is what was it that he suffered that I will not.

1. It obviously is not physical death because Christians still die.
2. No, it is the second death (which is the far more permanent condition). Jesus' soul was separated from the father, so mine ours will never be.

This is all pretty clear except for the fact that Jesus did not remain in that condition. The sin he took the punishment for was not his and it was taken care of and punished by God. The barrier that men have between us and God is sin, but Jesus no longer had any sin associated with him. He could walk right back into the fathers presence without propitiation and resume his former relationship. So Christ's human body died but his soul tasted Hell in our place but never ceased to exist, and now it is in a resurrection body as co-occupant of the throne of God.

 

[1robin]

The Spirit left then the body died.

Lu 23:46 And Jesus, crying with a loud voice, said, Father, into thy hands I commend my spirit: and having said this, he gave up the ghost.

I agree with this except for your thinking that his spirit went the father at that moment. You must fit in his trip to Hell and taking the keys to it from Satan. His soul did not die, but suffered the second death (separation from the father) so ours will not have to. yet he could walk back into the father presence after resurrection because he had no sin of his own separating them. Si his earthly bodied died, his soul suffered the second death but not annihilation, his soul was given a resurrected body and now is co-occupant of God's throne. I misunderstood what you said. Are we agreed?