Did Jesus say he was God???

[Dirty Penguin]

And yet the Only Begotton Son of a divine being would pretty much have to be divine himself, wouldn't you agree?

Bar any new threads on begotten.....Again, My position is Jesus's "dvinity" was granted by God.....


Joh 5:30 "I can of Myself do nothing. As I hear, I judge; and My judgment
is righteous, because I do not seek My own will but the will of the
Father who sent Me.

 

[Katzpur]

Bar any new threads on begotten.....Again, My position is Jesus's "divinity" was granted by God.....

I can go along with that, but then I don't subscribe to the whole "co-equal and co-eternal" bit.

 

[Dirty Penguin]

What you mean is that you wish to view what you found from a contrary spirit.

NOOOOO!!!!!


What I meant to say, I said.......!!!

None of the verses you show here has anything to do with the evidence provided which you haven't answered.

I answered it and well might I add. If you insist on not seeing the CLEAR evidence straight from the mouth of Jesus then that is your problem.


Your question was "Is Jesus God in the flesh"..... and reviewing who and what Jesus said he was and how, he clearly shows that he is seperate from God...The answer is an overwhelming (NO)...He is NOT God in the Flesh.

Jesus asks "why do you call me good only God is good." If you had read that verse in the OP you would have seen connected to it the verse where Jesus says "I am the good shepherd."

I read it.....AND??????!!!!!

One had nothing to do with the other. You failed to read further. You seem to enjoy picking and choosing verses you think are proving your position.....but they don't....


This is what h continues to say to show that he is not God in the flesh.


John 10:15
As the Father knoweth me, even so know I the Father: and I lay down my life for the sheep.

John 10:17
Therefore doth my Father love me, because I lay down my life, that I might take it again.

]If Jesus does nothing but the will of God it proves that He has the will of God.

Now you know that doesn't make any sense whatsoever. If he is doing the will of God then he is not God in the flesh.

The reference to his own will is most likely a reference to the will of the flesh which includes the mind of the body.

Why, because you say so??? Why must we interpert what is CLEAR..???



Joh 5:30 "I can of Myself do nothing. As I hear, I judge; and My judgment
is righteous, because I do not seek My own will but the will of the
Father who sent Me.


Joh 6:38 "For I have come down from heaven, not to do My own will, but
the will of Him who sent Me.

Joh 7:16 Jesus answered them and said, "My doctrine is not Mine, but His
who sent Me.


Joh 12:49 "For I have not spoken on My own authority; but the Father who
sent Me gave Me a command, what I should say and what I should speak.

I mean...REALLY.....Come on.....!!!!!!!! Jesus makes it so clear here...

He came from heaven to NOT do his will but God's will, NOT speaking on his own authority but that of God who sent him and who commanded him what he should say.

The flesh has a will of its own and contends with the spirit. It is no less true of us than it is of God. Just about every other verse you quoted reflects this dichotomy.

You're reading way to much into what Jesus said to the point where you're changing the meaning. He said God sent him to do his (God's) will. Jesus is not God in the flesh because he left us enough information that shows us he isn't.

Yes the Father is greater because He is not in the flesh.

Again, this is your interpertation. But to me Jesus' words are clear. He is not God.

The flesh limits God's capacity

.

I wasn't aware you spoke for God.....:sarcastic

 

[Dirty Penguin]

I can go along with that, but then I don't subscribe to the whole "co-equal and co-eternal" bit.

I hear ya..and I do agree with you.

 

[Muffled]

[/font]

I've always been taught that when God appeared to the various people in the OT it was Christ that appeared to them.

Those who taught you are massively confused. They are not able to discern between the temporality of the flesh and the eternality of the spirit. When Jesus says that He existed before Abraham, He is not referring to the body but Christian theologians have trouble seeing this and think that any viewing of God before Jesus must have included the body of Jesus. The truth is that God can inhabit any body He wishes and is able to create that body fully mature. The visit by God to Abraham before the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah is a case in point.

The resurrected Jesus is not in the exact same body that He was in before that body died. The flesh is not important only God is important and God is a spirit.

 

[Muffled]

The flesh has a will of its own? How on earth are you coming to that conclusion? Jesus had His own will, but it is always in complete unity with His Father's will.

The Father is greater only because He is the Father. Christ is subordinate to His Father only because of their Father/Son relationship and not because He had a physical body. Could you please provide some examples from the scriptures that would substantiate this reasoning?

If his knowledge and power extend everywhere, what He is made of would be inconsequential.

Well I'll be darned. I could have sworn that Jesus always referred to "my Father in Heaven" as opposed to "my Father everywhere."

My stomach growls and commands me to eat but my will is not subservient to the will of the flesh so I do not eat until it is my will to do so. My mind can be tempted to contemplate evil things having a will of its own but my spirit acts as my conscience and my will tells the mind to think of better things. Paul talked about this in Romans 8 where he says the flesh is in enmity with God.

One God, one will exactly what you would expect.

Phil. 2:5-7 ...Jesus: 6. who existing in the form of God, counted not the being on an equality with God a thing to be grasped, 7. but emptied himself, taking the form of a servant being made in the likeness of men;

This is not an opposition but the Father in Heaven is a subset of Father everywhere. The one truth does not negate other truths in the Bible.

 

[Muffled]

Bar any new threads on begotten.....Again, My position is Jesus's "dvinity" was granted by God.....


Joh 5:30 "I can of Myself do nothing. As I hear, I judge; and My judgment
is righteous, because I do not seek My own will but the will of the
Father who sent Me.

To say that Jesus is divine is to say that He is God. I think God was being really nice of Himself to grant Himself something He already had. All of these quotes reflect only one reality: Jesus had to establish His authority as coming from a God (the Father) that the Jews already knew but did not yet know that He was in Jesus.

 

[SonOfNun]

There was actually an instance when Mohammad though, himself, that demons and not God was talking to him.

 

[Dirty Penguin]

To say that Jesus is divine is to say that He is God.

No it's not. There have been plenty of people in the bible that have divine attributes but that doesn't mean they were God in the flesh.

example: Melchizedek

I think God was being really nice of Himself to grant Himself something He already had.

Now read what you just wrote once more and tell me that made sense.

God was being so nice that he gave himself something he alredy had????....:sarcastic

If it was already his, as you say, then he wouldn't have to do this....;

John 7:16
My doctrine is not Mine, but His
who sent Me.

John 14:24
and the word
which you hear is not Mine but the Father's who sent Me.
Joh 12:49 "For I have not spoken on My own authority; but the Father who
sent Me gave Me a command, what I should say and what I should speak.


Joh 6:38 "For I have come down from heaven, not to do My own will, but
the will of Him who sent Me.


Lu 22:42 saying, "Father, if it is Your will, take this cup away from Me;
nevertheless not My will, but Yours, be done."

Question.....If Jesus "is God" then who was he crying out to in Luke 22:42..??????

Who's will was he here to do...If he is God..???

Really...I don't need you to answer them. I already know the answer. Jesus is not God. He was here to do God's will and in Luke 22:42 he was crying out to God.

He didn't send himself from heaven to earth, he was not here to do his will, and he didn't speak on his own authority.

Thus meaning he is NOT God.

All of these quotes reflect only one reality:

Yes...That Jesus is not God......because he said he wasn't.

Jesus had to establish His authority as coming from a God (the Father) that the Jews already knew but did not yet know that He was in Jesus.

Jesus established no authority. He was here to do the will of God wheather they liked it or not.

Now look at what you wrote.....;

"coming from God"

Just as I said...He is not God......It seems we are starting to agree.

"He was in Jesus"

Now you're getting it. The divine will of God flowed through Jesus.

Luke 3:21-22
Now when all the people were baptized, it came to pass, that Jesus also being baptized, and praying, the heaven was opened, And the Holy Spirit descended in a bodily shape like a dove upon him, and a voice came from heaven, which said, Thou art my beloved Son; in thee I am well pleased.

But even at this point, Jesus is NOT God because Jesus being on earth and receiving the holy spirit....and then right after that God speaks...(from heaven)...This is important because Jesus confirms God is in heaven later on.

John 6:38 "For I have come down from heaven, not to do My own will, but
the will of Him who sent Me

God (SENT HIM) from heaven.

Mt 7:21 "Not everyone who says to Me, 'Lord, Lord,' shall enter the
kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven.


This may be hard for you to accept but your original question has been answered.....

Jesus is not God in the flesh. The holy spirit dwelt within in Jesus but He wasn't God. The holy spirit has dwelt within plenty of people in the bible but it doesn't mean they were God.

Psalms 51:11
Cast me not away from thy presence; and take not thy holy spirit from me

Isaiah 63:11
Then he remembered the days of old, Moses, and his people, saying, Where is he that brought them up out of the sea with the shepherd of his flock? where is he that put his holy Spirit within him?

Daniel 4:9
O Belteshazzar, master of the magicians, because I know that the spirit of the holy elohim is in thee, and no secret troubleth thee, tell me the visions of my dream that I have seen, and the interpretation thereof.

Luke 1:41
And it came to pass, that, when Elisabeth heard the salutation of Mary, the babe leaped in her womb; and Elisabeth was filled with the Holy Spirit:


Now we shouldn't assume that everyone filled with the holy spirit is God nor should we (assume) that Jesus, being filled with the holy spirit is God, especially since the holy spirit decended upon him and then after that God spoke from the heavens...

 

[lew0049]

"The Father which sent me. . ." is just one more of dozens of opportunities Jesus took to keep Himself separate from God in the minds of His followers. At opportunity after opportunity Jesus calls Himself the Son of Man, not the Son of God."
The Father which sent me. . ." is just one more of dozens of opportunities Jesus took to keep Himself separate from God in the minds of His followers. At opportunity after opportunity Jesus calls Himself the Son of Man, not the Son of God


Popeyesays - how can you possible say that Jesus tried to keep himself seperate from God? Son of Man and Son of God refer to the EXACT same concept. You cannot find references in the Bible, when taken literally, seperate Himself from God and then COMPLETELY ignore the overwhelming references that state Jesus and God are One.

 

[Dream Angel]

I have just thought of something - back in the beginning of the posts and the OP, The evidence for the fact Jesus was God was the great deal of miracles he created and accomplished. Moses parted water - the most impressive one in the bible IMO - does that make him a God too?

 

[ChristineES]

Moses didn't part water, God did. Give credit to the right individual, even Moses said it was God.

 

[Dream Angel]

Moses didn't part water, God did. Give credit to the right individual, even Moses said it was God.

So how do we know that God didnt do the things through Jesus as he did through Moses.

 

[lew0049]

DreGod - The evidence for Jesus claiming he is God is found within the scriptures. Aside from the miracles that He preformed, in NO way does he try to seperate Himself from God - instead He says that He is God in the flesh.

When Jesus is quoted as saying "Son of Man", this is not primarily referring to Jesus' humanity. Instead, it is a direct allusion to Daniel 7:13-7:14. The "Son of Man" is a figure that would come at the end of the world to judge mankind and rule forever. In essence, the "Son of Man" truly indicates a claim of divinity, someone who has universal authority and dominion. Additionally, Jesus claims to forgive sins in the synoptics - something only that God can do.
"Whoever acknowledges me, I will acknowledge before my Father in heaven." So, you would claim that final judgement is based upon this mere human being? To think that is, in my opinion, arrogant. Instead final judgment is based upon on one's reaction to Jesus AS God.

 

[lew0049]

So how do we know that God didnt do the things through Jesus as he did through Moses.

Although I am not 100% sure if we are capable of comprehending the "trinity", it does not seem likely that God would do things through someone who claims to be God - if in fact he is not.

 

[lew0049]

Another obvious example that I just thought of is when Jesus walks on water found Mark 6:45-52 and Matthew 14:22-33. Now, most English translations hide the Greek by quoting Jesus as saying "Fear not, it is I." Whereas, the actual Greek meaning is "Fear not, I am." Similiar to that found in John when 8:58 when He reveals Himself saying "I am."
AGAIN, this is the exact divine name that GOD revealed Himself to Moses in the burning Bush in Exodus 3:14. So, the conclusion is that Jesus is revealing Himself as the same divine power of nature as Yahweh, the God of the Old Testament.

 

[UnityNow101]

Once again though, if you believe that interpretation of the Bible, how do you reconcile the passages in which Jesus states that not only is the Father greater than Him, but that Jesus Himself has a God? I cannot reconcile the two views...Either Jesus is God Almighty or He is inferior to the Father and claims Him as His God...John 20:17.

 

[lew0049]

Well, in a "sense" he would be inferior to the Father, since he is the Father in the Flesh - mans flesh. As I said earlier, I am not 100% sure that we are supposed to completely understand the Trinity. A parallel would be, how is mankind supposed to understand how God truly made the universe? Yeah, we can read Genesis, but in no way can be comprehend how a universe was actually made.
I really understand how it can be a confusing concept to grasp as I have wondered the same thing, but I really am convinced that Jesus claims to be God in the flesh. There are many places/writings in the Bible that cannot be easily explained, but I don't believe it takes away from the fundamental message.
For example, the quote I earlier mentioned "Whoever acknowledges me, I will acknowledge before my Father in heaven." Now, when you read this message, the natural response is to say that Jesus has a Father(as we know it), but as I stated earlier, So, you would claim that final judgement is based upon this mere human being? To think that is, in my opinion, not accurate. Instead final judgment is based upon on one's reaction to Jesus AS God.

 

[Dream Angel]

The thing that gets me - is there is no mention of the bible of "The Trinity" yet you claim it to be a biblical idea. It is mans idea not the bibles!

 

[lew0049]

Of course the Bible never explicitly states "Trinity", but there are many terms we say that are not in the Bible. For example, the word "bible" is not found in the "bible." Regardless though, the books in the NT are not formal, point by point writings of doctrine. Nowhere in the Bible do the authors show difficulty in using the Father, Son or Holy Spirit - almost interchangably.

Three verses from the Bible that link the "trinity" concept.



All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and ofthe Son and ofthe Holy Spirit [Matthew 28:19].
May the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, and the love of God, and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit be with you all [2 Corinthians 13:14].
To God’s elect. . .who have been chosen according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through the sanctifying work of the Spirit, for obedience to Jesus Christ and sprinkling by his blood [1 Peter 1:1-2].
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