Did Jesus say he was God???

[John Martin]

I don't believe sin protects us from anything. The essential and functional barriers I was referring to, were the ones you said sin creates....
Do we or do we not need these "barriers" caused by sin?
You mentioned before that anyone who does not seek oneness with God is a slave and not free. I said the only ones who are not or will not be free are those who are slaves to sin. Then, you said sin creates barriers and that they were essential.....
...so my questions still stands...

Essential barriers are not necessary. They are man-made and are the source division, conflict and violence. An astronaut who has gone above the earth's hemisphere sees only one earth. All the national boundaries are man.made. Spending money on army to protect the boarder is a waste of money. We may need these boundaries in order to organize the places. They have functional value and not essential value. There is no need of army and spend money on the armaments. Jesus broke these essential boundaries and transformed them into functional boundaries. St.Paul says, Christ came to preach peace. He himself is our peace.How did you do this? by breaking down the walls of division and creating one humanity out of two thus he brought peace in the world. Everything that divides comes from sin. the word Devil comes from diabolis- which divides. Sin is division.Salvation is unity.
Those who identify with the boundaries and create enmity can be considered slaves to sin.

 

[BornAgain]

One question. If jesus was God, How can he be the son of God?

Jesus being God is ultimate experience of Jesus. It is like climbing the roof of the house. We do not live on the roof. We have to come into the house and live in it.
So Jesus, as long as he had his physical body and lives in the world of time and space, has live in a relationship with God. In this relationship Jesus relates with God as the Father and he himself is the Son. A piece of ice knows that it is one with the water but as long as it is a piece of ice it relates with the water as if they are two. Essentially they are one but functionally they are two. The consciousness of Jesus was one with God. Physically and psychologically he is different.

Can you answer verse 45?

Mat22:41 _ While the Pharisees were gathered together, Jesus asked them,
Mat22:42 Saying, What think ye of Christ? whose son is he? They say unto him, The Son of David.
Mat22:43 He saith unto them, How then doth David in spirit call him Lord, saying,
Mat22:44 The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand, till I make thine enemies thy footstool?
Mat22:45 If David then call him Lord, how is he his son?
Mat22:46 And no man was able to answer him a word, neither durst any man from that day forth ask him any more questions.

 

[Shermana]

Jesus is one with God in essence and he is different from God functionally. There are two types of monotheisms:dualistic monotheism and non-dualistic monotheism. In dualistic monotheism there is only one God. This God is the creator and human beings are creatures. In the non-dualistic monotheism there is only one God. This God is not the Creator but manifests creation. Creation is like the ice that comes from the water and returns to the water. Jesus was born in the dualistic monotheism but he had the experience of non-dualistic monotheism. It is for the reason he was able to say, 'the Father and I are one'. This is not possible in the dualistic monotheism. In order to understand how Jesus consciousness is one with God we must understand non-dualistic monotheism. If we believe only in dualistic monotheism then Jesus' experience and statement look blasphemous. Ice and water are one in essence but they are two functionally. In the same way the inner life of Jesus( not physical) was one with God but functionally he is separate from God.

Okay, so like we ask every time the word "Essence" is used....what does "Essence" mean? Do Angels and "Divine beings" not have this same "essence"?

There's a reason the Trinity wordsmithing isn't exactly too clear with words like "Essence" and "person" flailed around without any actual solid grounding.

I don't see how Dualistic or Monistic Monotheism has anything to do with this.

In the non-dualistic monotheism there is only one God. This God is not the Creator but manifests creation.

Ummm, what? Where do you derive this?

None of Jesus's statements are blasphemous if you read them correctly apart from the Trinitarian mangling of the grammar, with objective scholars to guide through the Koine.

Why would it not be possible to say "I and the Father are one" but it would be possible to say "Let them be one as we are one"? Are you assuming there's no way to read "are one" in the vein of "Me and the team are one"

 

[John Martin]

Can you answer verse 45?

Mat22:41 _ While the Pharisees were gathered together, Jesus asked them,
Mat22:42 Saying, What think ye of Christ? whose son is he? They say unto him, The Son of David.
Mat22:43 He saith unto them, How then doth David in spirit call him Lord, saying,
Mat22:44 The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand, till I make thine enemies thy footstool?
Mat22:45 If David then call him Lord, how is he his son?
Mat22:46 And no man was able to answer him a word, neither durst any man from that day forth ask him any more questions.

We are the combination of eternal and temporal. There is something in us,our physical bodies, which we receive from the temporal. There is also something in us which is eternal, which is not the product of time. As a physical being he was son of David. In his eternal self he is the Son of God. 'Before Abraham was I am'. Jesus could have even said, 'Before Adam was I am'. In the beginning was the Word, the Word was with God and the Word was God. Jn.1.1.

 

[John Martin]

Okay, so like we ask every time the word "Essence" is used....what does "Essence" mean? Do Angels and "Divine beings" not have this same "essence"?

There's a reason the Trinity wordsmithing isn't exactly too clear with words like "Essence" and "person" flailed around without any actual solid grounding.

I don't see how Dualistic or Monistic Monotheism has anything to do with this.



Ummm, what? Where do you derive this?

None of Jesus's statements are blasphemous if you read them correctly apart from the Trinitarian mangling of the grammar, with objective scholars to guide through the Koine.

Why would it not be possible to say "I and the Father are one" but it would be possible to say "Let them be one as we are one"? Are you assuming there's no way to read "are one" in the vein of "Me and the team are one"

Okay, so like we ask every time the word "Essence" is used....what does "Essence" mean? Do Angels and "Divine beings" not have this same "essence"?

There's a reason the Trinity wordsmithing isn't exactly too clear with words like "Essence" and "person" flailed around without any actual solid grounding.

I don't see how Dualistic or Monistic Monotheism has anything to do with this.

Matter and energy are essentially one but functionally it manifests in different types of matter,like atoms, neutrons, protons, quarks and Higgs Boson etc. Each one of these has its own characteristics. Matter is not a monad. it is web of relationships.
Trinity means that God is not a monad. It is web of relationships. In every relationship there are three elements: Giver-receiver and the object given. In the case of God all the three are God. Trinity is not so much about speaking about God. It has practical value. Trinity means that life is relationships. it is in relationships that we discover God and experience God. In dualistic relationship the Giver is different, the receiver is different and the object given is different. In the non-dualistic relationship the giver-the receiver-and object given are one the same. It is God giving to God and giving God. In the human relationships we can have dualistic relationships or non-dualistic relationship. If we go to a shop and buy an article and if we think the seller is different from the buyer then it is dualistic relationship. If they feel that they both are the manifestations of God then it is non-dualistic relationship.

Why would it not be possible to say "I and the Father are one" but it would be possible to say "Let them be one as we are one"? Are you assuming there's no way to read "are one" in the vein of "Me and the team are one"[/quote]

We can interpret in many ways. The important thing is whether our interpretation is helping us to grow in our relationship with God. Whether it is breaking down the barriers between God and ourselves, between us and others.

 

[Muffled]

Yes, the case can be made using the selected phrases from the New Testament by conflating the manifestation of an avatar of God with the transcendent source, but we see here in Mark 10:18... “Why do you call me good?” Jesus answered. “No one is good—except God alone", Jesus is here making the distinction to teach the people not to conflate the phenomenal appearance of the body named Jesus with the spirit of God manifest in him.

All mortal souls have the potential to become one with God, and that is his real teaching,..to do all the things he did and more. But few understand this true teaching and instead of emulating his example of sacrificing his personal ego to realize union with God, they instead identify with their personal ego to praise the temporary form of Jesus as one and the same as the eternal omnipresent God that manifested through it, and trust and pray that this is all that is required for meeting God's promise of immortality.

Not you personally Muffled, but to those who originated this erroneous teaching, I say... 'woe to you hypocrites! For you shut the kingdom of heaven in people’s faces. For you neither enter yourselves nor allow those who would enter to go in.' - Matthew 23:13

This is not a conflation. God is God wherever He is. He doesn't change from being God simply due to incarnation. However it is possible for some people to think of the body as having something to do with God and it does not.

I believe there is no way to justify this conclusion. If you reason it out logically I can explain why your reasoning is fallacious.

I know it appears that way but to my knowledge no-one has ever achieved it.

I beleive that isn't exactly how it works. God is one. His unity may be achieved in us but we do not actually become one spririt with God.

I cant say I have discussed this in depth with anyone. Usually people keep their spiritual lives private. I would not be surprised if there were leanings in this direction by people who don't have much spiritual understanding.

Faith goes a long way but one of the prophets reportd God as saying "My people perish for lack of knowledge."

 

[Muffled]

Jesus tells us that God and he are one, and goes on to imply that what (as perceived by people present at that time) he had to say, was not coming from himself, but from God the Father. He obediently did and said everything that that God willed him to do and say.

It therefore follows that all these quotes being used to imply that Jesus was God should be understood as him obediently fulfilling the will of God.

That's all for now....

How can God do other than fulfill His own will? I believe the reference to the Father is a reference to the Yahweh of the OT that the Pharisees did know even though they couldn't recognize Yahweh in Jesus.

 

[Muffled]

Creating an essential difference between Jesus and the rest of humanity creates spiritual apartheid between Jesus and the rest of the humanity. This is not what Jesus wanted. Jesus came to liberate people from all oppressions, including spiritual oppression. Christian vision creates this spiritual apartheid and brings bad name to Jesus. In a way it does disservice to Jesus. Jesus washed the feet of his disciples to show that he came to empower people and not to enslave them.

Call it whatever you want God is not man and never will be.

I suppose this is devivative since I don't remember any direct quote to this affect. I don't believe whatever you are using to derive this is valid.

I think I would be hard pressed to find a verse to support this notion.

I can't even imagine what you are talking about.

I believe it serves Jesus well.

I have two problems with this: 1. Jesus isn't empowering everyone (That ought to be obvious) 2. Jesus require a person to lay down his life for Him and that certainly appears to be servitude to me. The facts that He who serves us also requires us to serve Him are not contradictory.

 

[Ben Dhyan]

How can God do other than fulfill His own will? I believe the reference to the Father is a reference to the Yahweh of the OT that the Pharisees did know even though they couldn't recognize Yahweh in Jesus.

This is not a conflation. God is God wherever He is. He doesn't change from being God simply due to incarnation. However it is possible for some people to think of the body as having something to do with God and it does not.

I believe there is no way to justify this conclusion. If you reason it out logically I can explain why your reasoning is fallacious.

I know it appears that way but to my knowledge no-one has ever achieved it.

I beleive that isn't exactly how it works. God is one. His unity may be achieved in us but we do not actually become one spririt with God.

I cant say I have discussed this in depth with anyone. Usually people keep their spiritual lives private. I would not be surprised if there were leanings in this direction by people who don't have much spiritual understanding.

Faith goes a long way but one of the prophets reportd God as saying "My people perish for lack of knowledge."

Thank you for your thoughtful responses Muffled.

The reason you interpret the scripture in the way you do is because your viewpoint comes from a conceptual dualistic perspective. Iow, you see yourself as separate from God and it therefore logically follows that you understand the scripture on a basis of this underlying mental interpreted dualism.

Jesus on the other hand, according to my understanding of non-duality, was born a mortal soul (albeit with the mission to become a vehicle for God incarnation), and realized the Divine unity of existence and taught others on the basis of this underlying direct unity.

For that reason, you and others who interpret the teaching of Jesus based on conceptual dualism will not have the same understanding with those who are aware of the Divine underlying unity of existence, seen and unseen, immanent and transcendent.

Understanding this, there is no point in taking to task each other's position point by point, as everyone's present position is a logical result of their present state of understanding of 'what' and 'who' they really are in the context of cosmic existence, and therein lies the difference of present understanding.

So assuming we have established the reason of our respective differences, and since there is no desire to persuade you otherwise other than just pointing out there is another way of understanding,..there seems little else to say,..except perhaps,...amen.

But do feel free to respond again if you will...

 

[Tranquil Servant]

.....They have functional value and not essential value. ....Jesus broke these essential boundaries and transformed them into functional boundaries. St.Paul says, Christ came to preach peace. He himself is our peace.How did you do this? by breaking down the walls of division and creating one humanity out of two thus he brought peace in the world. Everything that divides comes from sin. the word Devil comes from diabolis- which divides. Sin is division.Salvation is unity.
Those who identify with the boundaries and create enmity can be considered slaves to sin.

It's too bad most of the world does not realize this peace and is full of division.
Going back to being spiritually divided from God. Do you believe we can reconcile with God through Jesus or by becoming like Jesus? (This is the part where you lost me)

 

[Sha'irullah]

One must always remember that Jesus spoke nothing, because all Biblical accounts of Jesus are int he third person.

 

[Tranquil Servant]

I don't call you servants anymore, because a servant doesn't know what his master is doing. But I've called you friends, because I've made known to you everything that I've heard from my Father.Jn.15.15.

Context matters...
John 13:16 Very truly I tell you, no servant is greater than his master, nor is a messenger greater than the one who sent him.
John 15:13-15 13 Greater love has no one than this: to lay down one’s life for one’s friends. 14 You are my friends if you do what I command. 15 I no longer call you servants, because a servant does not know his master’s business. Instead, I have called you friends, for everything that I learned from my Father I have made known to you.
1 Corinthians 4:1 This, then, is how you ought to regard us: as servants of Christ and as those entrusted with the mysteries God has revealed.

 

[John Martin]

It's too bad most of the world does not realize this peace and is full of division.
Going back to being spiritually divided from God. Do you believe we can reconcile with God through Jesus or by becoming like Jesus? (This is the part where you lost me)

We need to become like Christ. When we say through Jesus we mean to do what Jesus did.
Jesus said, I am the way,the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.
No one can come to the Father and say the things I say like, I am the way,the truth and the life or The Father and I are one' except by going through the same process of growth I have gone through.
Hence I believe that we need to become like Christ.

 

[John Martin]

Context matters...
John 13:16 Very truly I tell you, no servant is greater than his master, nor is a messenger greater than the one who sent him.
John 15:13-15 13 Greater love has no one than this: to lay down one’s life for one’s friends. 14 You are my friends if you do what I command. 15 I no longer call you servants, because a servant does not know his master’s business. Instead, I have called you friends, for everything that I learned from my Father I have made known to you.
1 Corinthians 4:1 This, then, is how you ought to regard us: as servants of Christ and as those entrusted with the mysteries God has revealed.[/quote

Jesus wanted everyone like him. Any type of interpretation that keeps distance between Christ and Christians creates spiritual apartheid. That is not dong justice to Jesus. I am the light of the world and you are light of the world, said Jesus. This is the good news of Jesus. Everything is only a preparation.

 

[Tranquil Servant]

We need to become like Christ. When we say through Jesus we mean to do what Jesus did.
Jesus said, I am the way,the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.
No one can come to the Father and say the things I say like, I am the way,the truth and the life or The Father and I are one' except by going through the same process of growth I have gone through.
Hence I believe that we need to become like Christ.

I do believe we must try to refrain from sin and let the Holy Spirit guide us to God's truth but like I mentioned before, Christ was conceived by God and was without sin while we are not. Christ is the Messiah for a reason; no one can measure up to him. Even his disciples who were specifically chosen by Christ to spread the Gospel, were guided by the Holy Spirit; they didn't "achieve" righteousness on their own. Christ said that although the spirit is willing, the flesh is weak.
2 Peter 1:21 For prophecy never had its origin in the human will, but prophets, though human, spoke from God as they were carried along by the Holy Spirit.

I believe there's only one way a person may learn the truths of God and discern his will. And only one way to erase sins and reconcile with God.
Mark 3:29 but whoever blasphemes against the Holy Spirit will never be forgiven; they are guilty of an eternal sin.”
John 15:26 [ The Work of the Holy Spirit ] “When the Advocate comes, whom I will send to you from the Father—the Spirit of truth who goes out from the Father—he will testify about me.
Ephesians 1:13 And you also were included in Christ when you heard the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation. When you believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit,
Ephesians 4:30 And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, with whom you were sealed for the day of redemption.
1 Corinthians 2:10-11 these are the things God has revealed to us by his Spirit.
The Spirit searches all things, even the deep things of God. 11 For who knows a person’s thoughts except their own spirit within them? In the same way no one knows the thoughts of God except the Spirit of God.
1 Corinthians 2:14 The person without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God but considers them foolishness, and cannot understand them because they are discerned only through the Spirit.
Titus 3:4-6 But when the kindness and love of God our Savior appeared, 5 he saved us, not because of righteous things we had done, but because of his mercy. He saved us through the washing of rebirth and renewal by the Holy Spirit, 6 whom he poured out on us generously through Jesus Christ our Savior,

 

[Tranquil Servant]

Context matters...
John 13:16 Very truly I tell you, no servant is greater than his master, nor is a messenger greater than the one who sent him.
John 15:13-15 13 Greater love has no one than this: to lay down one’s life for one’s friends. 14 You are my friends if you do what I command. 15 I no longer call you servants, because a servant does not know his master’s business. Instead, I have called you friends, for everything that I learned from my Father I have made known to you.
1 Corinthians 4:1 This, then, is how you ought to regard us: as servants of Christ and as those entrusted with the mysteries God has revealed.[/quote

Jesus wanted everyone like him. Any type of interpretation that keeps distance between Christ and Christians creates spiritual apartheid. That is not dong justice to Jesus. I am the light of the world and you are light of the world, said Jesus. This is the good news of Jesus. Everything is only a preparation.

My "interpretation" isn't just my own. I use Scripture and God's guidance to help me understand truth. I always use Scripture to back up my reasoning which is more than what I can say about "other" interpretations.

 

[F0uad]

One must always remember that Jesus spoke nothing, because all Biblical accounts of Jesus are int he third person.

That doesn't mean he did not spoke those words it simply means we cannot verify those things.

 

[BornAgain]

We are the combination of eternal and temporal. There is something in us,our physical bodies, which we receive from the temporal. There is also something in us which is eternal, which is not the product of time. As a physical being he was son of David. In his eternal self he is the Son of God. 'Before Abraham was I am'. Jesus could have even said, 'Before Adam was I am'. In the beginning was the Word, the Word was with God and the Word was God. Jn.1.1.

Are you saying that human being is dichotomous, or body and spirit?
Are human spirits before Abraham or Adam were?
So, you are saying that all human physical bodies were the sons of Adam, and all human spirits were the sons of God.

 

[John Martin]

Are you saying that human being is dichotomous, or body and spirit?
Are human spirits before Abraham or Adam were?
So, you are saying that all human physical bodies were the sons of Adam, and all human spirits were the sons of God.

Human beings are not dichotomous but trichotomous( I hope it is correct). Body,soul and spirit. Our physical bodies belong to the evolutionary process of time and space. Our spirit is the image and likeness of God. Our soul is the reflection of the spirit in the body-mind complex.It is the combination of the spirit and body. When our soul identifies with the body then it feels that it is material. If it identifies with the spirit then it feels that is spiritual. The soul is the battle field between material and spiritual. Our spirit is beyond time and space. It is like the ray of the Sun. It is beyond physical Adam, physical Abraham and physical David. Physically we are all sons and daughters of David, Abraham and Adam. In our spirit we are are beyond David, beyond Abraham and beyond Adam. We are all sons and daughters of God. To be born again means to discover our spirit, it is going beyond our identification with our body and soul and discover our spirit, in which we discover indwelling presence of God: I am in God and God in me. If this ray the Sun(divine) goes to its source then it says I am the Sun( divine),God and I are one. Jesus said, 'the Father and I are one. That is when his spirit realizes its source as God.
St.Paul says, 'May the God of peace make you perfect(full) and holy; may your spirit(pneuma), soul(psyche) and body(soma) be kept blameless for the coming of our Lord Jesus Chris(1Thes.5.23).

 

[John Martin]

One must always remember that Jesus spoke nothing, because all Biblical accounts of Jesus are int he third person.

It is not important whether Jesus spoke or not, but if they make any sense for our spiritual life or spiritual journey.