F0uad
Well-Known Member
Not entirely true if we read the old-testament many people had the same ''power'' and abilities as Jesus(pbuh). There are many religions out there that belief a human being can be divine nothing special here.
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Did Jesus say he was God???
- Thread starter Muffled
- Start date
Muffled
Jesus in me
That is amusing. I believe I speak the word of God and do not need to wait for Him to speak to me.
God loves everyone. The problem is that people don't believe it. The solution is for God to show the ultimate love by laying down His life for everyone. A person who believe Jesus is just a man only has a man showing love not God.
I agree because it appears to me that it came entirely out of your own thinking.
Muffled
Jesus in me
I don't doubt what the verse says but I do doubt your interpretation of it.
I have faith in the author who is God.
I doubt that Jesus approached the tree because of hunger not because Jesus was human but because He is divine and because He was perceived by the author as having human motives because the author did not fully understand the divine nature of Jesus.
I doubt that I will ever meet a Muslim humble enough to admit that.
I was referring to misinterpretation as doubtful and a Qu'ranic verse comes to mind where it is very doubtful that it says what Muslims think it says.
Muffled
Jesus in me
God is love. However love cares enough to get angry and Jesus does get angry when they are plotting to kill Him. God hates sin.
Of course there are those verses. God is not a man. I believe God is in Jesus. I believe God was not in Peter so he was a man. I believe Jesus is in the form of a man but He doesn't have a man's spirit.
I believe He is with me all the time. I believe if He were angry He would say so and since He speaks these words of His divinity in Jesus How could He be angry with what He says Himself?
BruceDLimber
Well-Known Member
From the Baha'i scriptures:
"Chapter 22.
"MIRACLES
"... f we relate to a seeker, a stranger to Moses and Christ, marvelous signs, he will deny them and will say: 'Wonderful signs are also continually related of false gods by the testimony of many people, and they are affirmed in the Books. The Brahmans have written a book about wonderful prodigies from Brahma.' He will also say: 'How can we know that the Jews and the Christians speak the truth, and that the Brahmans tell a lie? For both are generally admitted traditions, which are collected in books, and may be supposed to be true or false.' The same may be said of other religions: if one is true, all are true; if one is accepted, all must be accepted. Therefore, miracles are not a proof. For if they are proofs for those who are present, they fail as proofs to those who are absent....
"The outward miracles have no importance for the people of Reality. If a blind man receives sight, for example, he will finally again become sightless, for he will die and be deprived of all his senses and powers. Therefore, causing the blind man to see is comparatively of little importance, for this faculty of sight will at last disappear. If the body of a dead person be resuscitated, of what use is it since the body will die again? But it is important to give perception and eternal life--that is, the spiritual and divine life. For this physical life is not immortal, and its existence is equivalent to nonexistence. So it is that Christ said to one of His disciples: 'Let the dead bury their dead;' for 'That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.' [Matt. 8:22; John 3:6.]"
­Some Answered Questions, pp. 101-102
Peace,
Bruce
1robin
Christian/Baptist
I agree that certian people had certain powers but I believe Jesus was the only one to have them all, add in that he existed eternally, and saved the entire human race, then he has no comparison in the prophets nor any other. He was also the first resurrected (not resuscitated, but resurrected, they are two different things). One resusitated died again.
1robin
Christian/Baptist
From the Baha'i scriptures:
"Chapter 22.
"MIRACLES
"... f we relate to a seeker, a stranger to Moses and Christ, marvelous signs, he will deny them and will say: 'Wonderful signs are also continually related of false gods by the testimony of many people, and they are affirmed in the Books. The Brahmans have written a book about wonderful prodigies from Brahma.' He will also say: 'How can we know that the Jews and the Christians speak the truth, and that the Brahmans tell a lie? For both are generally admitted traditions, which are collected in books, and may be supposed to be true or false.' The same may be said of other religions: if one is true, all are true; if one is accepted, all must be accepted. Therefore, miracles are not a proof. For if they are proofs for those who are present, they fail as proofs to those who are absent....
"The outward miracles have no importance for the people of Reality. If a blind man receives sight, for example, he will finally again become sightless, for he will die and be deprived of all his senses and powers. Therefore, causing the blind man to see is comparatively of little importance, for this faculty of sight will at last disappear. If the body of a dead person be resuscitated, of what use is it since the body will die again? But it is important to give perception and eternal life--that is, the spiritual and divine life. For this physical life is not immortal, and its existence is equivalent to nonexistence. So it is that Christ said to one of His disciples: 'Let the dead bury their dead;' for 'That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.' [Matt. 8:22; John 3:6.]"
*Some Answered Questions, pp. 101-102
Peace,
Bruce
OH NO not the Bahi guys again. Just kidding, good to hear from you. I will respond to this soon.
F0uad
Well-Known Member
Having powers doesn't mean your god in anyway. There are also verses that says that God did those miracles and not Jesus(pbuh) such as:
Acts 2:22
"Men of Israel, listen to this: Jesus of Nazareth was a man accredited by God to you by miracles, wonders and signs, which God did among you through him, as you yourselves know.
Or
John 11:41-42
So they took away the stone. Then Jesus looked up and said, “Father, I thank you that you have heard me. I knew that you always hear me, but I said this for the benefit of the people standing here, that they may believe that you sent me.”
Or
John 5:19
Then answered Jesus and said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do: for what things soever he doeth, these also doeth the Son likewise.
There are many more passage's that i can quote but you get the idea, Jesus(pbuh) was given power this means nothing and in Acts we have a statement that God does those miracles true Jesus(pbuh) the same goes for Moses(pbuh).
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F0uad
Well-Known Member
You said that you doubted those verses and not my interpretation, how is my interpretation false or wrong?
The Author is man and there is not just 1 author but 44 Human Authors it can have certain aspects that were from God.
So your making the claim here that the authors made a error if this is the case then all the gospels can be wrong.
Because we don't have different authors writing things who lived a century after the event.
What?
F0uad
Well-Known Member
So you agree that Jesus(pbuh) is not all-loving, and being all-loving is just a made up ideology that contradicts reason and logic?
Just answer this question how can something be unlimited and limited on the same time? Isn't that the same as saying a circle can be a square?
What if i said he already told you so if you used your intellect and honesty?
1robin
Christian/Baptist
"MIRACLES
"... f we relate to a seeker, a stranger to Moses and Christ, marvelous signs, he will deny them and will say: 'Wonderful signs are also continually related of false gods by the testimony of many people, and they are affirmed in the Books. The Brahmans have written a book about wonderful prodigies from Brahma.' He will also say: 'How can we know that the Jews and the Christians speak the truth, and that the Brahmans tell a lie? For both are generally admitted traditions, which are collected in books, and may be supposed to be true or false.' The same may be said of other religions: if one is true, all are true; if one is accepted, all must be accepted. Therefore, miracles are not a proof. For if they are proofs for those who are present, they fail as proofs to those who are absent....
"The outward miracles have no importance for the people of Reality. If a blind man receives sight, for example, he will finally again become sightless, for he will die and be deprived of all his senses and powers. Therefore, causing the blind man to see is comparatively of little importance, for this faculty of sight will at last disappear. If the body of a dead person be resuscitated, of what use is it since the body will die again? But it is important to give perception and eternal life--that is, the spiritual and divine life. For this physical life is not immortal, and its existence is equivalent to nonexistence. So it is that Christ said to one of His disciples: 'Let the dead bury their dead;' for 'That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.' [Matt. 8:22; John 3:6.]"
*Some Answered Questions, pp. 101-102
"The outward miracles have no importance for the people of Reality. If a blind man receives sight, for example, he will finally again become sightless, for he will die and be deprived of all his senses and powers. Therefore, causing the blind man to see is comparatively of little importance, for this faculty of sight will at last disappear. If the body of a dead person be resuscitated, of what use is it since the body will die again? But it is important to give perception and eternal life--that is, the spiritual and divine life. For this physical life is not immortal, and its existence is equivalent to nonexistence. So it is that Christ said to one of His disciples: 'Let the dead bury their dead;' for 'That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.' [Matt. 8:22; John 3:6.]"
*Some Answered Questions, pp. 101-102
Peace,
Ok, I am not sure what that is used to mean but it has many philosophical and logical issues.
1. I have said for some time that Baha'i apparently attempts to reconcile things that are mutually exclusive. This of course can't be done unless everything is changed into stuff that is completely different from what they were. Miracles are apparently inconvenient for the Baha'i and so this teaching (above) was put forth to justify the denial of well evidenced events.
2. It DOES NOT follow that if one account is believed then all similar accounts must be adopted. If I accept one explanation for the universe I am not obligated to accept them all. In fact that is logically invalid. If I accept one story about Caesar I am not obligated to accept them all. That is historically invalid. I may use history and logic to examine the evidence and decide which ones merit approval.
3. It is perfectly fitting and compatible with a claim the a person is from God or is God to be able to demonstrate that claim. The perfect and fitting way to do that is to demonstrate a capability that no mere man has. A supernatural capability. It is so intuitive and obvious that people asked Muhammad to do miracles as the older prophets had done. It is exactly what you would want and need to merit belief someone is from God.
4. The Bible has countless miracles. It says they were given specifically to authenticate the origin of a persons message.
5. Even Baha'i grants that miracles happen as in the miracle of making a spiritually dead person spiritually alive. Unfortunately they for some reason think this is about the only miracle possible and turn all sorts of literal miracle stories into allegorical ones. That makes no sense whatever. One miracle of one kind is just as improbable as another. God would not be able to spiritually change hearts but not be able change water to wine.
6. In fact we can't even get a universe to have the discussion in without a miracle greater than any in history. Modern cosmology has confirmed the universe popped into existence a finite time ago. That means only a miracle from a God like force could have created it. Nature did not exist 16 billion years ago to create it's self even if it could. If God made the universe claims he did no other miracles is silly.
Muffled
Jesus in me
Muffled
Jesus in me
I believe Jesus is the love of God and contradicts nothing about God.
I believe God exists in all of time. He can be limited and unlimited at the same time because He is in all places.
I would say I believe you to be deluded.
PS: Schroedinger's cat.
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1robin
Christian/Baptist
I thought that you were very well aware that I am no strong Trinitarian and make few arguments about it. It seems pointless to me. I must do the exact same thing to be saved either way. The point I was making was not that Jesus is God, though there is much evidence for that, it was that Jesus was no ordinary person, (not even a normal prophet). Jesus actions show he was something like all prophets rolled up into one person. Weather God or not he was no mere teacher nor simple prophet. Many verses suggest he has always been, can forgive sin, and can do any and every miracle that was selectively done by prophets. He was by far the most influential theological person in human history.
Yes there are many passages where Jesus relies on his relationship with the father to do supernatural things. I will show why this is consistent with the trinity though I am not saying I firmly believe in it.
One of Jesus roles among many was to be an example for believers. He would at times, especially in public make it a point to indicate he was relying on the father to do this or that. Yet in other occasions he is doing stuff all by himself with no reference to God. The question is what explains this the best.
1. You would say it was that Jesus was not divine and needed the father to do supernatural acts. That explains some of those verses like the ones you posted but it can't do anything with the ones that indicate he is eternal, that he and the father are one, and that he had unlimited power on his own when in heaven a mysterious sometimes great sometimes less so power while on Earth.
2. Trinitarian doctrine would propose another option. That Jesus, the father, and the spirit are three persons that comprise one being. They are all individual minds but have a common essence or spiritual nature. The question is does this explanation work better than yours and I think it does for these reasons.
a. It accounts for both his seeming dependence on the father at times when he is acting in the role of example.
b. It also, unlike your conclusion makes sense of his actions that are said to come from him alone.
c. It also makes sense of his seeming eternal nature, he is said to be the source through which everything was made, his ability to forgive, and the verse that imply equality with the father.
Without a way to prove it either way I must choose the best available explanation based on the fact that it accounts for almost everything and that is the Trinitarian explanation. I must reject the one that explains some things but is inconsistent with others, yours.
The greatest miracle in the Bible after the creation of the universe is the resurrection (not to be confused with resuscitation). It is interesting what the Bible says about it.
So, would it have been possible that Jesus, through His divine nature, even while His human body lay dead, could have displayed His power through resurrection? Absolutely. Jesus, speaking of His body said Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up. (John 2:19) Certainly, it was God who raised His body (Rom. 10:9, 1 Pet. 1:21), and Jesus is God. But Scripture also teaches that the Father raised Him (Gal. 1:1; Eph. 1:17,20). Even the Holy Spirit is said to have raised Him (Romans 8:11). So, the act of raising Jesus from the dead was not the operation merely of one person within the Trinity, but was a cooperative act done by the power of the divine substance. The fact that the Bible teaches that God raised Jesus from the dead, and that Jesus raised Himself is yet another testament to Christs divinity. Did Jesus raise Himself from the grave or did God do it? | Christian Apologetics and Research Ministry
The Son Himself lays down His life and takes it up again John 10:17-18
BTW it is I in every single version of John 2:19 I could find (over 14).
When Jesus says, "'I' will raise it up," it is proof, also, of divine power. A mere "man" could not say this. No deceased "man" can have such power over his body; and there must have been, therefore, in the person of Jesus a nature superior to human to which the term "I" could be applied, and which had power to raise the dead - that is, which was divine.
Barnes' Notes on the Bible
F0uad
Well-Known Member
I advice to take a look at my orginal statements and see what you are disucssing now is relevant to it or not.
1robin
Christian/Baptist
I did not see any statements that made my response out of context. Backing up a few posts, I said that Christ is hard to prove (not impossible) to be God but that he certainly was no mere Rasul. He was either a man about whom many made up grand stories, a madman, a divine being, or one of the trinity of persons making up one being called God. The latter two being the most likely. My actual statement was this:
To which you replied with this:
My response was in this same context. If you were talking about something else it must have went much further back and I do not have time to reread 40 posts.
F0uad
Well-Known Member
You jumped into a discussion without even knowing i was discussing and i am not really interested in your opinions. I am also not sure how Jesus(pbuh) being or a part of trinity makes any more sense then him being a human being. You also forgot the notion that stories about him did circulate and we don't have any proof of him being God so please reconsider your position on this.
Jesus(pbuh) having power doesn't mean anything moreover those ''Powers'' could have be invented in some stories and some could have just been natural events were people could not describe them and had to look for super-natural explanations. Someone having more power then the Old-testament prophets doesn't make him god and as i said god did those miracles true Jesus(pbuh) so it wasn't Jesus(pbuh) himself to begin with. Your argument is selfish and biased you want to proof in a way that Jesus(pbuh) was god because he could do "More'' miracles then the previous prophets, what if there was a book that said i created the whole world and every being on it would you consider me god?
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1robin
Christian/Baptist
If you do not desire opinion or debate then you are in one strange place. I do not currently have any desire to endure the dissatasfaction you have with everything in general and so will leave it here.
F0uad
Well-Known Member
Thanks because i wasn't debating you and you just jumped in to it without checking things out.
1robin
Christian/Baptist
I thought I straightend out all the context complaints. I have had a question for you for awhile bu can't remember why it was I wanted to know. Do the majority of middle Eastern Islamic nations speak an Arabic similar enough to understand each other?