Did Jesus claim to be God?

[Smoke]

Obviously. It's a no-win situation for you. If God called Jesus, "God," it doesn't count, but if Jesus called himself "God," that proves a point -- whatever it might be.

If you want to start a thread about whether God claimed to be Jesus, feel free. This one is about whether Jesus claimed to be God.

 

[Quiddity]

Is "I Am" (Ehyeh) really the personal name of God? Or is "I am that I am" (as the KJV has it), that, is, Ehyeh-asher-ehyeh, the whole phrase, one name? And is that the personal name of God? Doesn't the Bible have God saying to Moses:

And I appeared unto Abraham, unto Isaac, and unto Jacob, by the name of God Almighty, but by my name YHWH was I not known to them.


​

I think "I AM" was something the Israelites were familiar with. Whether God himself had various names or just one, the point was quite clear to the Israelites. HE WAS A BLASPHEMER for calling claiming to be God.

 

[Anastasios]

in the samples of Endless there is no point of "claiming god himself", exept for the "being before Abraham" but it may indicate an eternal sprit which always existed for humanity, i.e. Spririt of Holiness or Gabriel who always brought the divine messages to messengers of God. I am not sure about it it seems a bit unclear to me for the moment I admit. But, the sentence doesn't give the sense of that he existed before Abraham.

 

[Halcyon]

Good question. Do you have an example of the Israelites stoning, condeming, calling someone a blasphemer for claiming to be a "little god" and not THE GOD? And what other gods claim to be "the Father and I are ONE"?

Re-harakhty was a composite god of Ra - the Father of the egyption pantheon - and Horus, the Messiah figure of egyption theology.

I have no problem stating that the Father and I are ONE, and believing in that 100%. Doesn't mean I'm claiming to be a deity though.

 

[Popeyesays]

Good question. Do you have an example of the Israelites stoning, condeming, calling someone a blasphemer for claiming to be a "little god" and not THE GOD? And what other gods claim to be "the Father and I are ONE"?

He was saying God and I are one in purpose and intent. Even in mathematics that is not a statement of identity

Regards,
Scott

 

[Smoke]

Good question. Do you have an example of the Israelites stoning, condeming, calling someone a blasphemer for claiming to be a "little god" and not THE GOD?

Does the interpretation of Jesus' teachings hinge on the reactions of his adversaries, or on his own explanation of it?

And what other gods claim to be "the Father and I are ONE"?

Jesus cites Psalm 82 in defense of his claims. Do you think the citation was dishonest? Or does it mean something?

 

[lunamoth]

He was saying God and I are one in purpose and intent. Even in mathematics that is not a statement of identity

Regards,
Scott

Hi Scott,

Where do you see the qualifier that They are one "in purpose and intent?" It just says They are One.

peace,
Laurie

 

[Popeyesays]

How about when he asked his apostles who he was and Peter answered, "Thou art the Christ," and Jesus said that's right?

"Christo" is a Greek word and it does not mean "God". It means "annointed". Jesus was not the only one annointed. Saul was annointed, David was annointed, Solomon was annointed - but they were annointed by the High Priest (Samuel for the first two - not sure about Solomon being annointed by Samuel).

The difference is GOD annointed Jesus at the pentecost. But notice that I find it doubtful God needed to annoint Himself.

Regards,
Scott

 

[Quiddity]

I have no problem stating that the Father and I are ONE, and believing in that 100%. Doesn't mean I'm claiming to be a deity though.

I was not intending to say that was a claim of deity. But to point out a) The Jews clearly understood him to be claiming to be God. b) What other god/man has made such a claim and had such a reaction by the Jews.

 

[Smoke]

I think "I AM" was something the Israelites were familiar with. Whether God himself had various names or just one, the point was quite clear to the Israelites. HE WAS A BLASPHEMER for calling claiming to be God.

And do you have other examples of the Jews attempting to stone someone for saying "I am"? Do you have examples of the Jews of Jesus' time referring to God as "I am"?

 

[Quiddity]

Does the interpretation of Jesus' teachings hinge on the reactions of his adversaries, or on his own explanation of it?

I take both into consideration. So no example?

Jesus cites Psalm 82 in defense of his claims. Do you think the citation was dishonest? Or does it mean something?

Please make clear what your interpretation and understanding is. We can go from there.

 

[Quiddity]

And do you have other examples of the Jews attempting to stone someone for saying "I am"? Do you have examples of the Jews of Jesus' time referring to God as "I am"?

Even if I don't, my point stands. They understood what he was claiming and they reacted accordingly.

 

[Smoke]

I take both into consideration. So no example?

None. Do you have the examples I asked for? Or is that not always a reasonable demand?

Please make clear what your interpretation and understanding is. We can go from there.

I'm not sure I have a clear interpretation and understanding. However, I don't think any interpretation that makes claims about Jesus that are peculiar to him and exclude all other people can be possible. "I have said, Ye are gods; and all of you are children of the most High."

 

[Popeyesays]

Hi Scott,

Where do you see the qualifier that They are one "in purpose and intent?" It just says They are One.

peace,
Laurie

Here's the verse in context, and context always helps:
10:24 Then came the Jews round about him, and said unto him, How long dost thou make us to doubt? If thou be the Christ, tell us plainly.
10:25 Jesus answered them, I told you, and ye believed not: the works that I do in my Father's name, they bear witness of me.
10:26 But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you.
10:27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: 10:28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.
10:29 My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.
10:30 I and my Father are one.
10:31 Then the Jews took up stones again to stone him.
10:32 Jesus answered them, Many good works have I shewed you from my Father; for which of those works do ye stone me? 10:33 The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God.
10:34 Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods? 10:35 If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken; 10:36 Say ye of him, whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the world, Thou blasphemest; because I said, I am the Son of God? 10:37 If I do not the works of my Father, believe me not.
10:38 But if I do, though ye believe not me, believe the works: that ye may know, and believe, that the Father is in me, and I in him.

Thankfully someone quoted the psalm to which Jesus referred earlier in this thread.
He is not setting Himself apart from any other "child of God" with His words. And He is saying that He and God are one in purpose by saying His works are done "from God".

Regards,
Scott

 

[Smoke]

Even if I don't, my point stands. They understood what he was claiming and they reacted accordingly.

Did they? Didn't Jesus say:

Therefore speak I to them in parables: because they seeing see not; and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand.
​

 

[Popeyesays]

Even if I don't, my point stands. They understood what he was claiming and they reacted accordingly.

I think you have to look at that passage grammatically: "Before Abraham WAS, I am." Notice the two tenses. Before Abraham had an identity, the Word was with God. I would extrapolate this to say before Jesus existed the WORD was. Meaning the human identity of the Station of the Word is not not the issue.

Regards,
Scott

 

[Quiddity]

None. Do you have the examples I asked for? Or is that not always a reasonable demand?

It's a reasonable demand. I also have none.

I'm not sure I have a clear interpretation and understanding. However, I don't think any interpretation that makes claims about Jesus that are peculiar to him and exclude all other people can be possible. "I have said, Ye are gods; and all of you are children of the most High."

Point taken. Although the context of John 10 would really exclude that interpretation for me. They clearly wanted to stone him for blasphemy. And even after explaining, they picked up rocks again. What would think that would of cleared things up and they would of said "oh, is that what you meant?" and they would put down their stones. That wasn't the case.

 

[dawny0826]

Christ's purpose was not to come to earth and declare that He was God.

God already did so, time and time again.

God came to earth in the flesh to SHOW us HOW to live for Him and shed his blood as the ultimate atonement for our sins.

The following scripture (I realize some is a reiteration) is proof enough to me that Christ is my God.

"For the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men, teaching us that denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly in the present age, looking for the blessed hope and glorious appearing of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ, who gave Himself for us, that he might redeem us from every lawless deed and purify for Himself His own special people, zealous for good works. Speak these things, exhort and rebuke with all authority. Let no one despise you." Tit. 2:11-15

"For unto us a Child is born, Unto us a Son is given: and the government will be upon His shoulder. And His name will be called Wonderful, Counselor, Mighty God." Isaiah 9:6

"My Father who has given them to me is greater than all: and no one is able to snatch them out of my Father's hand. I and My Father are one." John 10:29-30

"Jesus said to them, "Most assuredly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I AM." John 8:58

After Christ arose...he spoke to Thomas and when Thomas saw him he replied...

"My Lord and my God!." John 20:28

In John 1:1-5...the Eternal Word is defined as being both God and Christ...

"In the beginning, was the Word and the Word was with God and the Word was God. He was in the beginning with God. All things were made through Him, and without Him nothing was made that was made. In Him was life and the life was the light of men. And the light shines in the darkness and the darkness did not comprehend it."

"He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation. For by Him all things were created that are in heaven and that are on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers. All things were created through Him and for Him. Colossians 1:16

Keep in mind what Christ's purpose was.

He didn't need to PROCLAIM that he was God. His Sheep saw this in His Works and Resurrection.

 

[Smoke]

Christ's purpose was not to come to earth and declare that He was God.

I agree.

God already did so, time and time again.

Again, that's off-topic. The question is not whether Jesus was God. The question is whether he claimed to be.

 

[dawny0826]

I agree.

Again, that's off-topic. The question is not whether Jesus was God. The question is whether he claimed to be.

My whole point of my post was to point out to you that if you don't interpret the scripture that's been presented to you as proof that Christ and God are the same...you won't find an answer to your question.

He didn't NEED to verbally proclaim that He was God. That wasn't his purpose on earth. See where I'm coming from? I wasn't entirely off topic...

Jesus Himself did say that he and the Father are One....that's proof enough to trinitarians.