Did Jesus claim to be God?

[Smoke]

My whole point of my post was to point out to you that if you don't interpret the scripture that's been presented to you as proof that Christ and God are the same...you won't find an answer to your question.

He didn't NEED to verbally proclaim that He was God. That wasn't his purpose on earth. See where I'm coming from? I wasn't entirely off topic...

Are you saying that he demonstrated that he was God, and therefore there was no need to say it? I'm not saying that's an impossible interpretation, just trying to clarify what you mean.

Jesus Himself did say that he and the Father are One....that's proof enough to trinitarians.

What does that mean to you? Do you think he's claiming to be one in purpose with the Father, or one in essence with the Father, or identical to the Father, or something else? And can you see that a Trinitarian interpretation of that claim depends on a Trinitarian bias in the reader?

 

[dawny0826]

Are you saying that he demonstrated that he was God, and therefore there was no need to say it? I'm not saying that's an impossible interpretation, just trying to clarify what you mean.

What does that mean to you? Do you think he's claiming to be one in purpose with the Father, or one in essence with the Father, or identical to the Father, or something else? And can you see that a Trinitarian interpretation of that claim depends on a Trinitarian bias in the reader?

Yes. I do believe that Christ demonstrated by his Works that He WAS God in the flesh. Although, I don't think that His purpose WAS to show us that He WAS GOD but instead to show us how to live FOR GOD...pathing the way towards the new covenant.

ONE as in ONE. The same. God the Father, Son and Holy Ghost.

I have no problem confessing that I'm biased.

 

[sushannah]

The question has come up on a couple of other threads. On the face of it, it seems like a pretty straightforward question, yet opinions differ sharply on this question.

Can anyone provide an example of Jesus claiming to be God?

The criteria:

• It must be something Jesus said himself, not something said about him by someone else.
• It must be something said by Jesus during his earthly lifetime, not something said in a vision or other ecstatic experience.

Everything Jesus said was something others wrote about him, even his words. Jesus wrote no books or letters while he lived. This is one of the reasons I have a hard time believing Jesus was anything more than a man. G-d actually spoke to the Israelites when he gave the law, they heard his voice. the whole nation heard it. Why then would G-d, if he is walking the earth in the form of a man not leave anything written himself. Why would we not have, The Gospel according to G-d?

 

[Smoke]

ONE as in ONE. The same. God the Father, Son and Holy Ghost.

If Jesus and the Father are one and the same, aren't we drifting into "Jesus only" territory, rather than the traditional Trinity? The Trinity is a delicately balanced doctrine; if you hold that doctrine, you have to be very careful how you express it.

I have no problem confessing that I'm biased.

Well, we all are, aren't we? Of course, I think my bias is better than yours.

 

[nutshell]

Please don't turn this interesting thread into a Trinity debate.

 

[dawny0826]

Please don't turn this interesting thread into a Trinity debate.

I wasn't trying to, honestly.:162:

 

[nutshell]

I wasn't trying to, honestly.:162:

I know, dawny. It was more of a general statement to all readers. You're cool.:highfive:

 

[dawny0826]

If Jesus and the Father are one and the same, aren't we drifting into "Jesus only" territory, rather than the traditional Trinity? The Trinity is a delicately balanced doctrine; if you hold that doctrine, you have to be very careful how you express it.

Well, we all are, aren't we? Of course, I think my bias is better than yours.

Of course you think your bias is better than mine. This is a debate.:slap:

I understand the balance within the Trinity. I believe in it. I was just trying to make a point. And I don't want to start a debate on the Trinity. The topic is worn and torn. That wasn't my intent.

 

[Popeyesays]

Everything Jesus said was something others wrote about him, even his words. Jesus wrote no books or letters while he lived. This is one of the reasons I have a hard time believing Jesus was anything more than a man. G-d actually spoke to the Israelites when he gave the law, they heard his voice. the whole nation heard it. Why then would G-d, if he is walking the earth in the form of a man not leave anything written himself. Why would we not have, The Gospel according to G-d?

I don't really want to go hunting for the scripture that describes the event. If you have it to hand, please cite it. To my recollection it was not the Israelites en masse, it was Moses and a select few.

I would point out in the Gospels that the voice of God ws heard by witnesses on a couple of occassions including most dramatically the "transfiguration" where the voice of God and the presence of Moses and Abraham is recorded as being witnessed.

The point is that the mass of the followers were able to to be faithful never hearing the word of God from God, but were happy to embrace it coming from the mouth or pen of the Prophet. That is faith.

Regards,
Scott

 

[sushannah]

I don't really want to go hunting for the scripture that describes the event. If you have it to hand, please cite it. To my recollection it was not the Israelites en masse, it was Moses and a select few.

I would point out in the Gospels that the voice of God ws heard by witnesses on a couple of occassions including most dramatically the "transfiguration" where the voice of God and the presence of Moses and Abraham is recorded as being witnessed.

The point is that the mass of the followers were able to to be faithful never hearing the word of God from God, but were happy to embrace it coming from the mouth or pen of the Prophet. That is faith.

Regards,
Scott

I don't have the exact scripture on the top of my head, but you can find out more on this subject at www.askMoses.com

At the transfiguration, did the voice come out of Jesus's mouth. If he is supposed to be G-d, do you know what I mean. If G-d was walking the earth as a human, what better opportunity could there possibly be for G-d to convey his word's to the whole of mankind than to write them himself, in his own hand?

 

[Popeyesays]

I don't have the exact scripture on the top of my head, but you can find out more on this subject at www.askMoses.com

At the transfiguration, did the voice come out of Jesus's mouth. If he is supposed to be G-d, do you know what I mean. If G-d was walking the earth as a human, what better opportunity could there possibly be for G-d to convey his word's to the whole of mankind than to write them himself, in his own hand?

I do not believe that Jesus WAS God, and yes the voice of God came from the heavens.

I am neither Jew nor Christian. I am Baha`i and recognize the truth of all the Apostles of God.

 

[lunamoth]

Here's the verse in context, and context always helps:
10:24 Then came the Jews round about him, and said unto him, How long dost thou make us to doubt? If thou be the Christ, tell us plainly.
10:25 Jesus answered them, I told you, and ye believed not: the works that I do in my Father's name, they bear witness of me.
10:26 But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you.
10:27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: 10:28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.
10:29 My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.
10:30 I and my Father are one.
10:31 Then the Jews took up stones again to stone him.
10:32 Jesus answered them, Many good works have I shewed you from my Father; for which of those works do ye stone me? 10:33 The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God.
10:34 Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods? 10:35 If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken; 10:36 Say ye of him, whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the world, Thou blasphemest; because I said, I am the Son of God? 10:37 If I do not the works of my Father, believe me not.
10:38 But if I do, though ye believe not me, believe the works: that ye may know, and believe, that the Father is in me, and I in him.

Thankfully someone quoted the psalm to which Jesus referred earlier in this thread.
He is not setting Himself apart from any other "child of God" with His words. And He is saying that He and God are one in purpose by saying His works are done "from God".

Regards,
Scott

Hi Scott, respectfully of course, even in context it still takes putting one's interpretation on it to get that They are one in purpose from 10:30 I and my Father are one. I can see the Incarantion here, as well as the Mystery of the Trinity.

peace to you and yours,
Laurie

 

[Popeyesays]

Hi Scott, respectfully of course, even in context it still takes putting one's interpretation on it to get that They are one in purpose from 10:30 I and my Father are one. I can see the Incarantion here, as well as the Mystery of the Trinity.

peace to you and yours,
Laurie

Respectfully back atcha, Luna. I do see the Incarnation, but I mean it differently from you - the Manifestations are different from you or I, in my estimation. And, as you know, I believe there IS a trinity, just not the same as Christians generally mean.

Every religion has its trinity: The Giver of the Gift (God), the Receiver of the Gift (Christ), and the Gift Itself - the Revelation. That allows the trinity to be true and still not divide or multiply the essence of God.

Regards,
Scott

 

[Squirt]

If you want to start a thread about whether God claimed to be Jesus, feel free. This one is about whether Jesus claimed to be God.

Holy Cow! You totally misunderstood me! I never said (or remotely implied) that God claimed to be Jesus. I said merely that God (the Father) addressed His Son, Jesus Christ, as "God" on at least one occasion. To me, that is evidence enough that the title (i.e. "God") can be legitimately ascribed to Jesus Christ, whether He (Jesus) ever made the statement, "I am God" or not. In other words, it's pure nonsense to insist that because Jesus never made that direct statement Himself, it was merely a label His followers chose to give Him.

 

[finalfrogo]

He never directly claims to be God, but there are various excerpts that suggest such a notion.

Here are SOME excerpts that support his godliness:

"For in Him dwells all the fullness of the Godhead bodily" -Colossians 2:9

"Before Abraham was, I am" -John 8:58

"For unto us a Child is born... and His name will be called...Everlasting" -Isaiah 9:6

"For by Him all things were created that are in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or diminions or principalities or powers. All things were made through Him and for Him" -Colossians 1:16


"And now, O Father, glorify Me together with Yourself with the glory I had with You before the world was" -John 17:5

"I and the Father are one" -John 10:30

"He who has seen Me has seen the Father" -John 14:9

...these are only a few. In addition, there are many excerpts that sugget his humanity. Here are a FEW:

"For there is one God and one Mediator between God and men, the Man Christ Jesus" -I Timothy 2:5

"Now my heart is troubled, and what shall I say? 'Father, save me from this hour'?" -John 12:27

"Father, into Your hands I commit My spirit" -Luke 23:46

"After fasting forty days and forty nights, he was hungry." -Matthew 4:2 (Why would he be hungry if he was God?)

"Ands Jesus grew in wisdom and stature, and in favor with God and men." -Luke 2:52

Such great evidence for each has resulted in the conclusion by many Christians that Jesus was both fully man and fully God (as contradictory as that sounds)

 

[finalfrogo]

The question has come up on a couple of other threads. On the face of it, it seems like a pretty straightforward question, yet opinions differ sharply on this question.

Can anyone provide an example of Jesus claiming to be God?

The criteria:

• It must be something Jesus said himself, not something said about him by someone else.
• It must be something said by Jesus during his earthly lifetime, not something said in a vision or other ecstatic experience.

Whoops, I didn't mean to have that post as a minor response. I'll post it again...


He never directly claims to be God, but there are various excerpts that suggest such a notion.

Here are SOME excerpts that support his godliness:

"For in Him dwells all the fullness of the Godhead bodily" -Colossians 2:9

"Before Abraham was, I am" -John 8:58

"For unto us a Child is born... and His name will be called...Everlasting" -Isaiah 9:6

"For by Him all things were created that are in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or diminions or principalities or powers. All things were made through Him and for Him" -Colossians 1:16


"And now, O Father, glorify Me together with Yourself with the glory I had with You before the world was" -John 17:5

"I and the Father are one" -John 10:30

"He who has seen Me has seen the Father" -John 14:9

...these are only a few. In addition, there are many excerpts that sugget his humanity. Here are a FEW:

"For there is one God and one Mediator between God and men, the Man Christ Jesus" -I Timothy 2:5

"Now my heart is troubled, and what shall I say? 'Father, save me from this hour'?" -John 12:27

"Father, into Your hands I commit My spirit" -Luke 23:46

"After fasting forty days and forty nights, he was hungry." -Matthew 4:2 (Why would he be hungry if he was God?)

"Ands Jesus grew in wisdom and stature, and in favor with God and men." -Luke 2:52

Such great evidence for each has resulted in the conclusion by many Christians that Jesus was both fully man and fully God (as contradictory as that sounds)

 

[finalfrogo]

Oh sorry if I didn't stick to the criteria. I'm not actually sure who said what... I only transferred those excerpts from a worksheet...

 

[Popeyesays]

He never directly claims to be God, but there are various excerpts that suggest such a notion.

Here are SOME excerpts that support his godliness:

"For in Him dwells all the fullness of the Godhead bodily" -Colossians 2:9

"Before Abraham was, I am" -John 8:58

"For unto us a Child is born... and His name will be called...Everlasting" -Isaiah 9:6

"For by Him all things were created that are in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or diminions or principalities or powers. All things were made through Him and for Him" -Colossians 1:16


"And now, O Father, glorify Me together with Yourself with the glory I had with You before the world was" -John 17:5

"I and the Father are one" -John 10:30

"He who has seen Me has seen the Father" -John 14:9

...these are only a few. In addition, there are many excerpts that sugget his humanity. Here are a FEW:

"For there is one God and one Mediator between God and men, the Man Christ Jesus" -I Timothy 2:5

"Now my heart is troubled, and what shall I say? 'Father, save me from this hour'?" -John 12:27

"Father, into Your hands I commit My spirit" -Luke 23:46

"After fasting forty days and forty nights, he was hungry." -Matthew 4:2 (Why would he be hungry if he was God?)

"Ands Jesus grew in wisdom and stature, and in favor with God and men." -Luke 2:52

Such great evidence for each has resulted in the conclusion by many Christians that Jesus was both fully man and fully God (as contradictory as that sounds)

I'm aware of the 200% model, and don't accept it personally. In my opinion Jesus and the APostles of God lived much different than you or I - They were in a constant state of communion with God which the normal human can never attain - that is what sets Them apart from us.

As Baha`u'llah describes it: "When I contemplate, O my God, the relationship that bindeth me to Thee, I am moved to proclaim to all created things "verily I am God"; and when I consider my own self, lo, I find it coarser than clay!"
(Baha'u'llah, The Kitab-i-Aqdas, p. 234)

Regards,
Scott

 

[Smoke]

Holy Cow! You totally misunderstood me! I never said (or remotely implied) that God claimed to be Jesus. I said merely that God (the Father) addressed His Son, Jesus Christ, as "God" on at least one occasion.

We can't even verify objectively that God exists, so revelation is not objective evidence.

I'm not interested in getting anyone to change their beliefs, but I am interested in sticking very close to the topic, which is, whether Jesus claimed to be God. Both you and Dawny seem to feel that no such claim is necessary. I'm fine with that. But it's not the question.

Another thing to consider is the baptism of Jesus by John. Scripture tells us that John preached "the baptism of repentance for the remission of sins." Can Jesus' receiving such a baptism possibly be consistent with a claim to be God?

I've heard all the standard explanations, most of which have to do with being a good example or fulfilling some ritual requirement, but they all seem to fall a little flat. Would Jesus have received a baptism of repentance for the remission of sins if he had never sinned and had no need of repentance? Wouldn't it be blatantly hypocritical to do so?

 

[shema]

I believe that there are no examples of Jesus claiming to be God, because there are none. Jesus never claimed to be God. There are plenty of people who made such claims by their own accounts. However Jesus did claim to be Son of Man, down the long line of God's children.(Matthew 20:18)
Jesus Also states that I am in the father and he is in me. The words that I say to you are not my own rather it is the father who is doing his work.
So Jesus does not say he is God.
However, that fact is only a fraction of the mystery of God.
I have said ye are gods: and all of you are the children of God. PSALMS 82.6
Adam was a god. he ruled over the earth and was placed there by God. We believe that there are many gods on the earth and outside earth, however that doesnt mean that they have the breath of God(holy spirit). but we musnt get god confused with God. Psalm 82.6 to me, means just that. God does extra-ordinary things through us ordinary people. That's not really a bad thing if you know how to act like a god. Jesus has a family history of King ship(david, solomon, mechelzideck{hebrews 5:4-}...... So he is also referred to as the King of Kings. He did not carry Human behavioral traits, however He carried the behavioral traits of God. as a child would carry on the traits of the parent. and was referred to as Son of Man. Adam means man. Mans sin took us to the grave, and a man had to be born on earth to make it right.
romans 8:14
My Lord and my God (plural) Thomas saw Yahweh and Yesua.
We are tripod beings, we have a soul(connects spirit with body), spirt(dwells in the spirit realm) and we live in a body(intellect, imagination,etc). The same spirit which impregnated Mary was the same spirit of Jesus in his later years. but only his soul and body were human. thats why he prayed, ate, slept, etc..