Did Jesus Christ actually die?

[oldbadger]

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Cephas and his involvement in Mark is a speculation based on Papias saying "Mark the companion of Peter" organised the thoughts and statements of Peter into kind of a book, but in that there is no indication he is referring to this Gospel according to Mark. None whatsoever. There is no indication that the Gospel of Mark was collected or written by a person called Mark. Papias's statement is completely cloven to the Gospel, it is a random statement that people worked to associate with the Gospel of Mark. Thus, this is not a very good association and what he says of these books are quite wrong which seems like he never meant to address these books. If he did, he got a lot of things wrong.

It is a reasonable idea. Cephas was most displeased with the way that things were progressing, and he certainly didn't like Paul who offered no details about Jesus, his life or his actions. So the gospel that makes most sense being attributed to Cephas rings good bells with me.

Anyway, the naked runner has been thought of an attempt to fulfil the idea of the strong man who will flee naked in the book of Amos. Anyway, lets say this happened in the year 32 or 33, and Mark was written in or around 60 or later, as per your sentence I presume you have a belief at this time, the soldiers story of the garden episode remained as a source for the author of Mark! Anything is a possibility I suppose.

No. Those Temple officers never said a word about their incompetence, probably never knew about any gospels,even.

The only person who had that incident burned in to his mind was the author of Mark.

That makes sense to me.

 

[lukethethird]

The Gospel of according to mark was probably written 30 years after Jesus passed. Some believe that it was written between 30-27 years after Jesus passed. Also, there is no internal evidence that the author was an eye witness. That is what I wish to raise.

Nevertheless I was told by OB above that the author was there during Jesus and his ministry so I am awaiting the reasoning which I am eager to hear.

It appears that the author of Mark may have been a witness to Paul's ministry, or at least was familiar with his writings, and wrote his gospel story in response to the destruction of Jerusalem. Marks gospel is a re-write of what we now refer to as the OT, another one of his sources.

 

[Skywalker]

It appears that the author of Mark may have been a witness to Paul's ministry, or at least was familiar with his writings, and wrote his gospel story in response to the destruction of Jerusalem. Marks gospel is a re-write of what we now refer to as the OT, another one of his sources.

Mark wrote about Jesus who came before the destruction of Jerusalem as the prophecies predict.

 

[lukethethird]

Mark wrote about Jesus who came before the destruction of Jerusalem as the prophecies predict.

Of course he did, he had a crystal ball.

 

[Skywalker]

Of course he did, he had a crystal ball.

Jesus dying before the destruction of the second temple is proof that he died because the destruction of the second temple and the suffering servant are mentioned in Old Testament prophecies.

 

[Subduction Zone]

Jesus dying before the destruction of the second temple is proof that he died because the destruction of the second temple and the suffering servant are mentioned in Old Testament prophecies.

<sigh> Please learn what "proof" is. And you might want to learn why those are failed prophecies. Almost all Biblical prophesies fail by being too vague and depending upon one's viewpoint have "been fulfilled" multiple and self contradicting times. Just like the prophesies of Nostradamus.

 

[Skywalker]

<sigh> Please learn what "proof" is. And you might want to learn why those are failed prophecies. Almost all Biblical prophesies fail by being too vague and depending upon one's viewpoint have "been fulfilled" multiple and self contradicting times. Just like the prophesies of Nostradamus.

What Bible prophecy is as vague as the Hister prophecy? Isaiah 66 mentions that as soon as Zion travailed, she brought forth her children. Micah 5:2 mentioning the Messiah being born in Bethlehem or Psalm 22 mentioning the Messiah dying by crucifixion is not like the prophecies of Nostradamus.

 

[Subduction Zone]

What Bible prophecy is as vague as the Hister prophecy? Isaiah 66 mentions that as soon as Zion travailed, she brought forth her children. Micah 5:2 mentioning the Messiah being born in Bethlehem or Psalm 22 mentioning the Messiah dying by crucifixion is not like the prophecies of Nostradamus.

The example that you cited appears to be just as vague.

The problem with biblical prophecies is that when they are specific they fail. Rather badly. Otherwise they are open to multiple interpretations and different sects will interpret them as applying to different events.

 

[Skywalker]

The example that you cited appears to be just as vague.

The problem with biblical prophecies is that when they are specific they fail. Rather badly. Otherwise they are open to multiple interpretations and different sects will interpret them as applying to different events.

I don't think the Jewish people during the time of Christ rejected Jesus because they thought that the prophecies were vague. They thought that the Messiah would have delivered them from Roman oppression. The Old Testament mentions the Messiah taking the punishment of God upon Himself. The New Testament says that God was in Christ, reconciling the world to Himself.

 

[Subduction Zone]

I don't think the Jewish people during the time of Christ rejected Jesus because they thought that the prophecies were vague. They thought that the Messiah would have delivered them from Roman oppression. The Old Testament mentions the Messiah taking the punishment of God upon Himself. The New Testament says that God was in Christ, reconciling the world to Himself.

Only a small fraction of the people accepted Jesus as a Messiah. The religion really took off in Rome. It appealed to the poor and downtrodden. Since most Jews thought that Jesus failed at fulfilling those prophecies that would indicate by your "logic" that he was not who he said that he was.

Don't make an appeal to popularity when popularity runs against you.

 

[Skywalker]

Only a small fraction of the people accepted Jesus as a Messiah. The religion really took off in Rome. It appealed to the poor and downtrodden. Since most Jews thought that Jesus failed at fulfilling those prophecies that would indicate by your "logic" that he was not who he said that he was.

Don't make an appeal to popularity when popularity runs against you.

What I said was the opposite of appeal to popularity.

 

[Subduction Zone]

What I said was the opposite of appeal to popularity.

Not really.

But it was once again an argument that is refuted by a "So what?" since there are many that did not have the same beliefs. You need something different than just the fact that some thought that vague prophecies that people chose to believe.

Vague prophecies fail because one can pick and choose what they apply to. To be a valid prophecy it must be specific.

You might try to read this article here:

Biblical prophecies - RationalWiki

 

[Skywalker]

Not really.

But it was once again an argument that is refuted by a "So what?" since there are many that did not have the same beliefs. You need something different than just the fact that some thought that vague prophecies that people chose to believe.

Vague prophecies fail because one can pick and choose what they apply to. To be a valid prophecy it must be specific.

You might try to read this article here:

Biblical prophecies - RationalWiki

The Jews didn't think that the prophecies of Jesus were vague they rejected Jesus because he didn't fit their perception of who they wanted God to be. I believe that the prophecies they didn't believe were rejected out of pride and religious traditions.

 

[Subduction Zone]

The Jews didn't think that the prophecies of Jesus were vague they rejected Jesus because he didn't fit their perception of who they wanted God to be. I believe that the prophecies they didn't believe were rejected out of pride and religious traditions.

How do you know that? And the problem is that Jesus did not match hardly any of the messianic prophecies and many of the supposed prophecies that he matched were made up after the fact. Such as the various Nativity stories that needed to get him born in Bethlehem.

 

[Skywalker]

How do you know that? And the problem is that Jesus did not match hardly any of the messianic prophecies and many of the supposed prophecies that he matched were made up after the fact. Such as the various Nativity stories that needed to get him born in Bethlehem.

The Nativity details might have been mentioned later but Micah 5:2 mentions the Messiah being born in Bethlehem. There was no need for the prophets to give the deepest details. Jesus matched the messianic prophecies but the Jews wanted the Messiah to deliver them from the Romans and they interpreted the prophecies based on that.

 

[dybmh]

I believe that the prophecies they didn't believe were rejected out of pride and religious traditions.

The stories in the NT contain several disqualifiers. Like this one:

John 6:51-56

51 I am the living bread that came down from heaven. Whoever eats this bread will live forever. This bread is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world.”

52 Then the Jews began to argue sharply among themselves, “How can this man give us his flesh to eat?”

53 Jesus said to them, “Very truly I tell you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you have no life in you. 54 Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day. 55 For my flesh is real food and my blood is real drink. 56 Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood remains in me, and I in them.

Jewish people do not drink blood.

 

[Skywalker]

The stories in the NT contain several disqualifiers. Like this one:

John 6:51-56

Jewish people do not drink blood.

Jesus was speaking in parables and metaphors. Vampirism is forbidden in both the Old Testament and the New Testament.

 

[lukethethird]

The stories in the NT contain several disqualifiers. Like this one:

John 6:51-56

Jewish people do not drink blood.

True, except for the ones that do.

 

[Subduction Zone]

The Nativity details might have been mentioned later but Micah 5:2 mentions the Messiah being born in Bethlehem. There was no need for the prophets to give the deepest details. Jesus matched the messianic prophecies but the Jews wanted the Messiah to deliver them from the Romans and they interpreted the prophecies based on that.

How so? Jesus was almost certainly born in Nazareth. Why do you think that he was born in Bethlehem?

 

[Skywalker]

How so? Jesus was almost certainly born in Nazareth. Why do you think that he was born in Bethlehem?

Matthew 2:1-12