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Did God want the Devil?

Blackdog22

Well-Known Member
Not only that, but where did this imperfection first occur in a heaven of which in essence, was absolutely sinless and perfect to begin with prior to Lucifer's rebellion and fall. I took that imperfection was not even possible with perfection. A big question that irked me as a Christian to no bounds. Very little written on Lucifer to my knowledge. As it turns out Lucifer is one of the most interesting characters I came across.

Better yet, if Perfection can be overcome by some sort of free will(meaning we weren't freely perfect, which isn't perfect.) then Heaven is an impossibility. Christians looking forward to Heaven should actually be scared to death because it just isn't possible. Your book claims your God has failed on a perfect place, not once, but twice! First Heaven and now Earth, so we have his 3rd attempt (third times a charm right?) at making Heaven perfect (really this time! He means it!).

I don't mean to be snide, but come on. Think about it.
 

David69

Angel Of The North
No, all gods, God, demons, angels, fairies, werewolves, vampires, dragons, etc. are ancient archetypal images embedded deep within our unconsciousness, they don't really exist, they are figments of imagination empowered by us and turned into mythology for various purposes, the Abrahamic purposes being the most controlling and guilt ridden ones.

It's fantasy and fiction placed upon a pedestal.


But staying within the OP, do we really need an 'evil' devil?

-Your 'God' kills 70,000 innocent people because David ordered a census of the people(1 Chronicles 21)

-Your 'God' also orders the destruction of 60 cities so that the Israelites can live there. He orders the killing of all the men, women, and children of each city, and the looting of all of value (Deuteronomy 3).

-He orders another attack and the killing of “all the living creatures of the city: men and women, young, and old, as well as oxen sheep, and mules ” (Joshua 6).

-In (2 Kings 10:18-27), God orders the murder of all the worshipers of a different god in their very own church!

Just about every other page in the Old Testament has God killing somebody!
In total God kills 371,186 people directly and orders another 1,862,265 people murdered.

-The God of the Bible also allows slavery, including selling your own daughter as a sex slave (Exodus 21:1-11), child abuse (Judges 11:29-40 and Isaiah 13:16), and bashing babies against rocks (Hosea 13:16 & Psalms 137:9).

I can't find ONE verse where the devil harms ANYONE!

Go canny on the creator, it is the evil manipulators of religion that is to blame and they will fall, Lucifer is Gods proudest creation and as I said earlier, god sent Lucifer to earth for a reason; to do away with the true evil of the world.
 

AntEmpire

Active Member
I told you all about it in the book of Job, where you will see that in the court of heaven Satan is the district attorney. He is not, as Christians imagine, the enemy of heaven and mankind. Satan is merely the person who sees the bad side of things and carries out the dirty work.

He saw Job and wondered whether Job really was as great a guy as he seemed to be, and suggested that God should appoint a committee of investigation to find out. The committee did its work very thoroughly, but the case went against Satan because it was proved in the end that Job was an honorable man.

Now you notice that although we pay the salary of the district attorney, whenever there’s a great criminal case before the public eye people begin to take the side of the underdog. The prosecutor always has less public sympathy than the defendant (except in political trials).

On the right hand of God – and you know that the defense is always on the right hand of the judge in court – is our only mediator and advocate, which is a phrase referring to Jesus Christ our Lord.

So there is the defense, and there is the prosecution. It is the function of Satan to be the prosecutor. There is a good deal more to it than that, because before all this started – lies in a stage play – there was an arrangement in the green room, in which certain things were understood but that are only to be revealed when the curtain goes down at the end of the play.
 

TheCup

Member
HELLO; I Like your question here.
Actually, can the question demand any other answer above than, YES?
God must have personally needed the vial and evil existence of such a being or such a highly destructive element as Satan is, to exist right here on planet earth, moving himself in and out and all amid the human race of today.
Now then, if we were to stop and think about the creative MOTIVES that may be strangely existing in behind Gods' very long overlooked creative intentions and also His Biblically recorded potentials, for the production of the mortal existence of the entire human race, and we also then attempt to co-relate that same collected understaning with the undeniable facts standing tall before us all today, and that is, we human's of today now have the freedom of a self Will, then we also have to begin to regress our thinking at this time backwards (in thought of course) unto the exact point where the Bible tells us, Adam and Eve became spiritually dead, while standing before the tree of the knowledge of good and eve---furthermore, afterwards, we can now beging to somewhat see, this was all mostly because of those prior collectives of recorded Biblical events in the Garden of Eden; now we can better come to see that all recorded events in Genesis did led to the strange unfolding of our human self-will.
It should also stand to some slight reasoning here or even to some common-day reasoning, without the heavenly (or Godly) created existence of the mighty archangel Lucifer, who is also believed to have "mysteriously" became egotistically sick and altered (which is also widely assumed altered for no logical or any apparent reason at all) and also we see that same archangel (Lucifer) also "mysteriously" became oddly treansformed into that cunning old serpent (which is also believed to be strange for an archangel such as Lucifer to alter into Satan, by many millions of Bible believing people of today), it was this same fallen archangel Lucifer now Satan who then also became somewhat directly and personally responsible for bringing about the total emotional collaps of mankind and also the total collaps of our human type reasoining, and then from there, the spiritual downfall of Adam and Eve closely followed; furthermore, however, all of this begain evolving to also unfold all of mankinds spiritual death, starting from those dark gloomy early days of mankind onward unto today. All of what we today have come to understand strangely seems to be coming from that one very long overlooked and widely misunderstood event unfolding right in the very same Garden of Eden God Himself also put together and created on planet earth, along also with the Godly creation of that same old cunning serpent (Satan) the one God Himself placed right in the center of Adam and Eve's Earthly type living room. Does this all not seem somewaht strang, especially for an all knowing and all wise Godly Being to do, that is, if Satan were really not needed by God to do anything on earth, but aid mankind and bring about a collective existence of human self will?
Frankly speaking, I personally believe that without old Satan around our world to tempt and try un-saved folks, would we who are saved have ever come to know the true loving favors of a true forgiving Godly Being such as God is?
In fact, this one may challange many folks; exactly what would todays high tech driven, sattelite powered churches do today to make a good living, without the strange existence of evil moving all about in our home world; and also, would any of us who do somewhat know a little "something" about this absolute awesome Godly Being have ever come to know the endless wondrous joys of first becoming saved, by the blood of our Lord Jesus Christ; folks, all of this is currently coming down to us modern-day children of last day doom and gloom today, and from this same awesome Godly Being? O-YES absolutely indeed, if there were no Satan what then? In fact, logic denmands, there had to be a Creator God in order to produce such a being as Lucifer then Satan; and the best logic is, if there is a Godly Creator, there also has to be a created Satan, one who is doing exactly what that Godly creator had created that Satan to do on planet earth :confused:...? HELLO...! Good by:run:
 

MarkM609

New Member
I told you all about it in the book of Job, where you will see that in the court of heaven Satan is the district attorney. He is not, as Christians imagine, the enemy of heaven and mankind. Satan is merely the person who sees the bad side of things and carries out the dirty work.

He saw Job and wondered whether Job really was as great a guy as he seemed to be, and suggested that God should appoint a committee of investigation to find out. The committee did its work very thoroughly, but the case went against Satan because it was proved in the end that Job was an honorable man.

Now you notice that although we pay the salary of the district attorney, whenever there’s a great criminal case before the public eye people begin to take the side of the underdog. The prosecutor always has less public sympathy than the defendant (except in political trials).

On the right hand of God – and you know that the defense is always on the right hand of the judge in court – is our only mediator and advocate, which is a phrase referring to Jesus Christ our Lord.

So there is the defense, and there is the prosecution. It is the function of Satan to be the prosecutor. There is a good deal more to it than that, because before all this started – lies in a stage play – there was an arrangement in the green room, in which certain things were understood but that are only to be revealed when the curtain goes down at the end of the play.

I like this quote from Alan Watts, but I cannot seem to find it online. Is it from a book or is an audio? Please help me find it. I want to post the audio version online.
 

Whiterain

Get me off of this planet
It's difficult to speculate when you're given such vague details. Finding the original version of the
story is difficult.

I'm trying to figure out if Satan and Lucifer are the same, I think "The Devil" is a euphemism. If
these two are separate it would make more sense to me, if the Satan is Surtr that would be
surprising.

I stated in a previous thread I Satan may be Loki that went un-edited. Loki and Lucifer may be
the same but Lucifer is not the same at all in explanation, he seems different.

Loki's effigy does shine through in numerous depictions over the ages to people that are familiar
with him. Some times depictions are powerful but that could be because Loki was their inspiration
for their artwork alone. There are many 'Devil' like characters in many of the tales, Paradise Lost
does an excellent job molding apocrypha into the book.

You have to go far back to the original story. Modern day versions of the story are interpretations.

Devil - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
 
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Pegg

Jehovah our God is One
Think about it if he created everything and he knows everything doesn't that mean he wanted Lucifer to fall?

if that were the case, then Satan is not an enemy of God, rather he's a loyal subject doing what he is purposed for.

If thats so, why is God going to destroy him?
 

no-body

Well-Known Member
if that were the case, then Satan is not an enemy of God, rather he's a loyal subject doing what he is purposed for.

If thats so, why is God going to destroy him?

That's only if you accept Revelation. Even so Satan is quite brave if this is true. Much braver than Jesus who knew he would survive his ordeal and come back with infinite power.
 

Pegg

Jehovah our God is One
That's only if you accept Revelation. Even so Satan is quite brave if this is true. Much braver than Jesus who knew he would survive his ordeal and come back with infinite power.

Satan brave?

Stupid perhaps, brave, no. He's just a rebel with major vanity issues who hates Gods creations so much he gets his pleasure from making us suffer.
 

no-body

Well-Known Member
Satan brave?

Stupid perhaps, brave, no. He's just a rebel with major vanity issues who hates Gods creations so much he gets his pleasure from making us suffer.

I guess it depends on your point of view. Dying for freedom seems more heroic than "dying" (and knowing you will come back) for some rube goldberg device to prove a point about free will because your creations where a mistake.
 

garrydons

Member
If we study carefully the Bible, we will learn that it was not God's will for lucifer to fall neither He created the devil although he is all knowing. Angels were also given freedom of choice between good and evil like humans. Otherwise, angels and humans will be just like robots if where not given freedom.
 

Gjallarhorn

N'yog-Sothep
If we study carefully the Bible, we will learn that it was not God's will for lucifer to fall neither He created the devil although he is all knowing. Angels were also given freedom of choice between good and evil like humans. Otherwise, angels and humans will be just like robots if where not given freedom.
If you carefully study the Bible, there is no "Lucifer".
 

FranklinMichaelV.3

Well-Known Member
If we study carefully the Bible, we will learn that it was not God's will for lucifer to fall neither He created the devil although he is all knowing. Angels were also given freedom of choice between good and evil like humans. Otherwise, angels and humans will be just like robots if where not given freedom.

Why do we assume that Robots dont' have freedom? Last I check any movie relating to Robots have shown that without predefined laws, they would have freedom.

It would appear that creation goes towards freedom and it's own laws that curtail it.
 

FranklinMichaelV.3

Well-Known Member
if that were the case, then Satan is not an enemy of God, rather he's a loyal subject doing what he is purposed for.

If thats so, why is God going to destroy him?

Which is mentioned only in revelations written by a person who we have no idea who actually was?

Now if you accept the book of Enoch then it's understandable why you would accept Revelation.
 

BruceDLimber

Well-Known Member
God being One, Supreme, and without rival or equal, there's no "devil" out there competing with Him and trying to "get us."

And "satan" merely refers to our own lower (animal) nature when we give it control instead of our higher (spiritual) nature.

(Which God did indeed create given that He provided us with free will....)

Peace, :)

Bruce
 

Saint Frankenstein

Wanderer From Afar
Premium Member
if that were the case, then Satan is not an enemy of God, rather he's a loyal subject doing what he is purposed for.

If thats so, why is God going to destroy him?

Satan originally wasn't an enemy of Yahweh. The Jews didn't and don't believe that. That idea only came about in the NT and Christians making stuff up down through the centuries. Most of what Christians believe about Satan has nothing to do with the Bible. They're more influenced by Paradise Lost. To the Jews, Satan is Samael, an angel who tempts and tests and the angel of death. But he is stilled viewed as a servant of Yahweh. Samael - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
 
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