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Did Christ appear to other nations?

Discussion in 'Biblical Debates' started by mormonman, Dec 29, 2005.

  1. Popeyesays

    Popeyesays Well-Known Member

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    Nowhere is it said that the flesh that appeared to the Apostles was the same flesh that was laid away in the tomb, does it?

    Regards,
    Scott
     
  2. greatcalgarian

    greatcalgarian Well-Known Member

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    It has to be, since there is the empty tomb:D
     
  3. Popeyesays

    Popeyesays Well-Known Member

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    Well, we have no evidence for an empty tomb other than Mary Magdalene's words which are not really hers at all, but put into her mouth by the male authors of the gospels.

    The Divine nature of Christ were His perfection of spiritual qualities.

    Flesh is dust. It does not live again. The spirit does not die, but is severed from its earthly attachments. Christ returns in the Spirit which is what descended from God, and ascended back to God. The flesh is earthly and succumbs to what all flesh succumbs - disintegration.

    Regards,
    Scott
     
  4. greatcalgarian

    greatcalgarian Well-Known Member

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    Not only Mary Magdalene's word (As in Matthew where the angel spoke to her), there was another Mary, the mother of James, and Salome, three women who discovered the empty tomb according to Mark. In Luke, there were even more, including Mary Magdalene, Joanna, and Mary the mother of James, and ohter women.....

    How do you prove that it was the male author that put the words into these women? In that case, you may even say all the four Gospel are not telling any thing true about what Jesus said, since it was written by these four males and not by Jesus himself???
     
  5. greatcalgarian

    greatcalgarian Well-Known Member

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    Thomas (John 20.24-29) was your witness. However, very unfortunately, Thomas was not scientifically trained to take some finger print, and scrape off some skin to do DNA to prove that the flesh that appeared before him was the same flesh that was laid away in the tomb.:D
     
  6. Popeyesays

    Popeyesays Well-Known Member

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    Quote:Originally Posted by PopeyesaysWell, we have no evidence for an empty tomb other than Mary Magdalene's words which are not really hers at all, but put into her mouth by the male authors of the gospels.

    The Divine nature of Christ were His perfection of spiritual qualities.

    Flesh is dust. It does not live again. The spirit does not die, but is severed from its earthly attachments. Christ returns in the Spirit which is what descended from God, and ascended back to God. The flesh is earthly and succumbs to what all flesh succumbs - disintegration.

    Regards,
    Scott

    Still no proof that the flesh laid in the tomb reappeared.

    Please do not misunderstand. I believe Jesus was laid in the tomb after His death upon the cross, and His Spirit was taken up to God. I believe that anyone who saw Jesus after that event saw exactly what would convince Him most that Jesus had returned. Why? Because that was the purpose of His return to the Apostles. To give them heart. To give them faith. To give them dedication, so they would arise and do what God called upon them to do - spread the Gospel. There were two "resurrections" that Sunday morning, and the resurrection of the SPirit of Christ was of lesser importance. What was truly important was that the cause of Christ was rejuvenated, taken up and taught with vigor by the men and women who had been most dejected, splintered, woe-begone, depressed and lost before that sun rose.

    Regards,
    Scott
     
  7. Katzpur

    Katzpur Not your average Mormon

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    I'm not exactly sure how to respond to this question. If you were a Christian, it might be a little bit easier, since we'd have a certain common ground upon which to build. But my understanding is that when Jesus died, His spirit left His body, but did not cease to exist. When He was resurrected, His spirit re-entered His body (the same one that was laid in the tomb), infusing it with renewed life. At the same time, His body was made immortal, meaning that it could not die a second time and would never again be subject to disease or injury. It was glorified and made celestial, but it was essentially the same one He had throughout His mortality. As to where it states that "the flesh that appeared to the Apostles was the same flesh that was laid away in the tomb," I think the wounds in His hands, feet and side were pretty clear evidence that it was. Who else's flesh would it have been?
     
  8. Popeyesays

    Popeyesays Well-Known Member

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    We have plenty of common ground, Katz. I believe Christ was the Son of God, and that as His own words testified, He laid down His life for others that they might not perish but have life everlasting.

    Once Jesus was passed from His worldly body, that body had no significance whatsoever. It was dust returning to dust.

    Flesh is dust and Spirit is immortal. God is not flesh, but Spirit, so is the Spirit of God that was once manifest in the flesh. I'll try to let Abdu'l Baha explain it better than I can:

    "Answer. -- The resurrections of the Divine Manifestations are not of the body. All Their states, Their conditions, Their acts, the things They have established, Their teachings, Their expressions, Their parables and Their instructions have a spiritual and divine signification, and have no connection with material things. For example, there is the subject of Christ's coming from heaven: it is clearly stated in many places in the Gospel that the Son of man came from heaven, He is in heaven, and He will go to heaven. So in chapter 6, verse 38, of the Gospel of John it is written: "For I came down from heaven"; and also in verse 42 we find: "And they said, Is not this Jesus, the son of Joseph, whose father and mother we know? How is it then that he saith, I came down from heaven?" Also in John, chapter 3, verse 13: "And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but He that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven."
    Observe that it is said, "The Son of man is in heaven," while at that time Christ was on earth. Notice also that it is said that Christ came from heaven, though He came from the womb of Mary, and His body was born of Mary. It is clear, then, that when it is said that the Son of man is come from heaven, this has not an outward but an inward signification; it is a spiritual, not a material, fact. The meaning is that though, apparently, Christ was born from the womb of Mary, in reality He came from heaven, from the center of the Sun of Reality, from the Divine World, and the Spiritual Kingdom. And as it has become evident that Christ came from the spiritual heaven of the Divine Kingdom, therefore, His disappearance under the earth for three days has an inner signification and is not an outward fact. In the same way, His resurrection from the interior of the earth is also symbolical; it is a spiritual and divine fact, and not material; and likewise His ascension to heaven is a spiritual and not material ascension.
    Beside these explanations, it has been established and proved by science that the visible heaven is a limitless area, void and empty, where innumerable stars and planets revolve.
    Therefore, we say that the meaning of Christ's resurrection is as follows: the disciples were troubled and agitated after the martyrdom of Christ. The Reality of Christ, which signifies His teachings, His bounties, His perfections and His spiritual power, was hidden and concealed for two or three days after His martyrdom, and was not resplendent and manifest. No, rather it was lost, for the believers were few in number and were troubled and agitated. The Cause of Christ was like a lifeless body; and when after three days the disciples became assured and steadfast, and began to serve the Cause of Christ, and resolved to spread the divine teachings, putting His counsels into practice, and arising to serve Him, the Reality of Christ became resplendent and His bounty appeared; His religion found life; His teachings and His admonitions became evident and visible. In other words, the Cause of Christ was like a lifeless body until the life and the bounty of the Holy Spirit surrounded it.
    Such is the meaning of the resurrection of Christ, and this was a true resurrection. But as the clergy have neither understood the meaning of the Gospels nor comprehended the symbols, therefore, it has been said that religion is in contradiction to science, and science in opposition to religion, as, for example, this subject of the ascension of Christ with an elemental body to the visible heaven is contrary to the science of mathematics. But when the truth of this subject becomes clear, and the symbol is explained, science in no way contradicts it; but, on the contrary, science and the intelligence affirm it."
    (Abdu'l-Baha, Some Answered Questions, p. 103-106)

    I believe He appeared in the Spirit and as such He wore whatever flesh would convince His beholders that He was returned. Even though it could be seen, heard, touched it was not flesh like I wear, or He wore before His ascension. It was like an angel that appears. It wore an appearance of flesh, so It could be beheld with the phjysical senses.

    Thomas needed to see the wounds, so He saw them. It was a spiritual manifestation of form, not a physical one.

    Regards,
    Scott
     
  9. painted wolf

    painted wolf Grey Muzzle

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    can't seem to find any info from a relyable source.
    So for now I'm going to have to go with hoax.

    I've never seen a native script that looked anything like this... Not Cherokee, Mickmac, Aztec, Mayan or other of the few that have scripts.

    sadly part of the "civilizing" of the Native Americans (no I'm not offended by the term) included the "christinizing" of us... including makeing us a "lost tribe" rather than letting us be our own indipendant people, created by God in our lands for our own soverntry.

    wa:do
     
  10. Katzpur

    Katzpur Not your average Mormon

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    Thanks for your explanation, Scott. I guess this is something we're simply going to have to agree to disagree on!
     
  11. may

    may Well-Known Member

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    ok then ,who is ready for some accurate knowledge of who the OTHER SHEEP are,
    And I have other sheep, which are not of this fold; those also I must bring, and they will listen to my voice, and they will become one flock, one shepherd..john 10;16

    these other sheep are not part of the little flock...
    (Luke 12:32) "Have no fear, little flock, because YOUR Father has approved of giving YOU the kingdom

    The little flock(144,000)are the ones who will be going to heaven to rule with Jesus christ , the other sheep are the ones who will get through the great tribulation Revelation 7;9,14 and they are being gathered from all nations right now , and they will live on a paradise earth .and hopefully i am one of the other sheep because i do recognize Jesus christ as the king of Gods heavenly kingdom goverment
     
  12. Popeyesays

    Popeyesays Well-Known Member

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    Perhaps some context will help.
    "
    Jesus Teaches About The Cares Of This Life

    22Jesus said to His followers, "Because of this, I say to you, do not worry about your life, what you are going to eat. Do not worry about your body, what you are going to wear. 23Life is worth more than food. The body is worth more than clothes. 24Look at the birds. They do not plant seeds. They do not gather grain. They have no grain buildings for keeping grain. Yet God feeds them. Are you not worth more than the birds?
    25"Which of you can make yourself a little taller by worrying? 26If you cannot do that which is so little, why do you worry about other things? 27Think how the flowers grow. They do not work or make cloth. Yet, I tell you, that King Solomon in all his greatness was not dressed as well as one of these flowers. 28God puts these clothes on the grass of the field. The grass is in the field today and put into the fire tomorrow. How much more would He want to give you clothing? You have so little faith! 29Do not give so much thought to what you will eat or drink. Do not be worried about it. 30For all the nations of the world go after these things. Your Father knows you need these things. 31Instead, go after the holy nation of God. Then all these other things will be given to you. 32Do not be afraid, little flock. Your Father wants to give you the holy nation of God. 33Sell what you have and give the money to poor people. Have money-bags for yourselves that will never wear out. These money-bags are riches in heaven that will always be there. No robber can take them and no bugs can eat them there. 34Your heart will be wherever your riches are. "

    What in that compells one to believe what you believe about it? Why does it refer to these 144,000 and not to the people to whom Jesus was speaking at that very moment - which by interpolation is you and me today?

    Regards,
    Scott
     
  13. Bishka

    Bishka Veteran Member

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    I think this is a bit rude, because many people think they have the right answer, perhaps, maybe if you said, this is my belief and opinion and why I believe, and not saying that other ideas and beliefs are not accurate.

    I'm not meaning to offend, just saying something.:rolleyes: :162:
     
  14. benjosh

    benjosh Member

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    Painted Wolf,

    You said,
    I agree with you about the Christianizing of NA's. But I don't agree about the Hebrew heritage as something that is related to Christianizing. Christians (except the ones believing the Hebrew connection) were opposed to any kindness to NA's (other than taking their lands and making them Christians and calling their missions a ministry)
    There was a movement among Christians to treat NA's right, most became Mormons. While NA's were being herded through southern Missouri (headed west) in 1838. The governor of Missouri issued an extermination order against Mromons and they were being run out of the northern part of the state (headed east). With Andrew Jackson as president those loyal to the Indians were as fair game as Indians.
    So, if you think these Hebrew origins are just another part of the general Chrsitianizing effort think again. White people were losing their lives because they believed they had the Indian's sacred book and wanted to reverse what was happening to them.
    And, it has been anti-native peoples Christians that have dominated politics and religion in America. We live in a culture that can not live with the possibility of the truth of the NA's Hebrew origins.

    BenJosh
     
  15. may

    may Well-Known Member

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    because Jesus was talking to the early christians and they are part of the 144,000 but Jesus knew that in a future time there would be a great crowd of other sheep who would also listen to his voice.and they do
    After these things I saw, and, look! a great crowd, which no man was able to number, out of all nations and tribes and peoples and tongues, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, dressed in white robes; and there were palm branches in their hands." (Revelation 7:9)

     
  16. may

    may Well-Known Member

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    if i didnt believe it was accurate knowledge i wouldnt bother to say it was;)
     
  17. Katzpur

    Katzpur Not your average Mormon

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    Interesting that you'd put it that way, May. I'm always interested in hearing what other people's opinions are, but I kind of tend to be put off by people who simply assume that their knowledge is "accurate" and that mine is not.

    See, here we disagree. Here are my thoughts:

    1. Prior to His statement about "other sheep which are not of this fold," Jesus specifically stated, "I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel." While His atoning sacrifice was to redeem all of His Father's children, His own personal interaction would be solely with the lost sheep of the house of Israel.

    2. He stated that the "other sheep" he was talking about were not of the same fold as those he was speaking to. They would have to be part of the house of Israel, but they would be of a different fold. They would have been separated from the fold he was addressing.

    3. He said that these other sheep would hear His "voice," not merely His "words" as spoken by his Apostles and others He commissioned to spread His gospel. He was saying that He would speak to others of the house of Israel. The question is, who in the world at that time would have been part of the house of Israel, but not of the same fold as those of Israel in the Holy Land?
     
  18. joeboonda

    joeboonda Well-Known Member

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    WERE THE "OTHER SHEEP" IN THE AMERICAS?
    Mormons use John 10:16—"I have sheep which are not of this fold"—to argue that Jesus needed to visit his people in the Americas. Who are these "other sheep" according to the Bible? Several passages clearly teach that these "other sheep" are the Gentiles. Study the following passages yourself. John 11:51-52; Acts 10:45; 11:18; 13:46; 14:27; 15:3-23; Galatians 3:28; Ephesians 2:11-19; 3:3-6.

    11:51 And this spake he not of himself: but being high priest that year, he prophesied that Jesus should die for that nation; 11:52 And not for that nation only, but that also he should gather together in one the children of God that were scattered abroad.
    (King James Bible, John)

    10:45 And they of the circumcision which believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because that on the Gentiles also was poured out the gift of the Holy Ghost.
    (King James Bible, Acts)

    11:18 When they heard these things, they held their peace, and glorified God, saying, Then hath God also to the Gentiles granted repentance unto life.
    (King James Bible, Acts)

    13:46 Then Paul and Barnabas waxed bold, and said, It was necessary that the word of God should first have been spoken to you: but seeing ye put it from you, and judge yourselves unworthy of everlasting life, lo, we turn to the Gentiles.
    (King James Bible, Acts)

    14:27 And when they were come, and had gathered the church together, they rehearsed all that God had done with them, and how he had opened the door of faith unto the Gentiles.
    (King James Bible, Acts)

    15:3 And being brought on their way by the church, they passed through Phenice and Samaria, declaring the conversion of the Gentiles: and they caused great joy unto all the brethren.
    15:4 And when they were come to Jerusalem, they were received of the church, and of the apostles and elders, and they declared all things that God had done with them.
    15:5 But there rose up certain of the sect of the Pharisees which believed, saying, That it was needful to circumcise them, and to command them to keep the law of Moses.
    15:6 And the apostles and elders came together for to consider of this matter.
    15:7 And when there had been much disputing, Peter rose up, and said unto them, Men and brethren, ye know how that a good while ago God made choice among us, that the Gentiles by my mouth should hear the word of the gospel, and believe.
    15:8 And God, which knoweth the hearts, bare them witness, giving them the Holy Ghost, even as he did unto us; 15:9 And put no difference between us and them, purifying their hearts by faith.
    15:10 Now therefore why tempt ye God, to put a yoke upon the neck of the disciples, which neither our fathers nor we were able to bear? 15:11 But we believe that through the grace of the LORD Jesus Christ we shall be saved, even as they.
    15:12 Then all the multitude kept silence, and gave audience to Barnabas and Paul, declaring what miracles and wonders God had wrought among the Gentiles by them.
    15:13 And after they had held their peace, James answered, saying, Men and brethren, hearken unto me: 15:14 Simeon hath declared how God at the first did visit the Gentiles, to take out of them a people for his name.
    15:15 And to this agree the words of the prophets; as it is written, 15:16 After this I will return, and will build again the tabernacle of David, which is fallen down; and I will build again the ruins thereof, and I will set it up: 15:17 That the residue of men might seek after the Lord, and all the Gentiles, upon whom my name is called, saith the Lord, who doeth all these things.
    15:18 Known unto God are all his works from the beginning of the world.
    15:19 Wherefore my sentence is, that we trouble not them, which from among the Gentiles are turned to God: 15:20 But that we write unto them, that they abstain from pollutions of idols, and from fornication, and from things strangled, and from blood.
    15:21 For Moses of old time hath in every city them that preach him, being read in the synagogues every sabbath day.
    15:22 Then pleased it the apostles and elders with the whole church, to send chosen men of their own company to Antioch with Paul and Barnabas; namely, Judas surnamed Barsabas and Silas, chief men among the brethren: 15:23 And they wrote letters by them after this manner; The apostles and elders and brethren send greeting unto the brethren which are of the Gentiles in Antioch and Syria and Cilicia.
    (King James Bible, Acts)

    3:28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.
    (King James Bible, Galatians)

    2:11 Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands; 2:12 That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world: 2:13 But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.
    2:14 For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us; 2:15 Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace; 2:16 And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby: 2:17 And came and preached peace to you which were afar off, and to them that were nigh.
    2:18 For through him we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father.
    2:19 Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God;

    3:3 How that by revelation he made known unto me the mystery; (as I wrote afore in few words, 3:4 Whereby, when ye read, ye may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ) 3:5 Which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men, as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit; 3:6 That the Gentiles should be fellowheirs, and of the same body, and partakers of his promise in Christ by the gospel:
    (King James Bible, Ephesians)

    In these passages who is being referred to? I believe it must be the Gentiles. Don't you all? The disciples were to go tell the world, that is how God chose to do it, through 'the foolishness of preaching' faith in Christ. The American Indians were not Christians when we got here, no doubt about that.
     
  19. Katzpur

    Katzpur Not your average Mormon

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    Yes, Christ told His disciples to preach His gospel throughout the world. But He also said (and you seem to be ignoring this) and His own personal mininstry was solely to the lost sheep of the House of Israel. The lost sheep of the house of Israel were not gentiles. They were descendents of Israel. He also said that these sheep would hear His voice, not merely his words as spoken by someone else. Many heard Peter's voice, teaching Jesus' words, but again, that's not what Jesus said would happen with respect to His "other sheep." They would hear His voice. I realize I just got through saying this same thing, but apparently I didn't connect the first time around.
     
  20. joeboonda

    joeboonda Well-Known Member

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    Jesus indeed preached to the lost sheep of Israel, and many rejected him, and crucified him, and persecuted the apostles,so he turned to the Gentiles:

    13:46 Then Paul and Barnabas waxed bold, and said, It was necessary that the word of God should first have been spoken to you: but seeing ye put it from you, and judge yourselves unworthy of everlasting life, lo, we turn to the Gentiles.
    (King James Bible, Acts)

    Don't make it into more than what the Bible plainly and simply teaches.
     
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