Dharmic: A question

[RamaRaksha]

Have anyone ever saw electron ?

Just because you can't see it doesn't mean it didn't exist - you don't remember your birth or the first few years of your childhood but that doesn't mean it did not happen

A bit more interested in what you posted after your question - why exactly do you want to be anyone's slave? They like that? They see you as a no brain zombie who blindly follows orders? Why would you want to reduce yourself like that?

Life is a Gift - a Gift that God has given us and we get to savor it over and over again. If you do not want life, God is not going to force you - there is no such thing as karma bandham - it is like going to school or paying a debt - you don't have to go to school if you don't want to or pay your debts - but don't think that things will be better - if you choose to not have a life, then you simply will cease to exist - yes no more pain and suffering, but no life either. That is what you want, that is what you will get

Please, as an educated person, think about your choices - don't blindly read ancient texts

 

[kalyan]

Just because you can't see it doesn't mean it didn't exist - you don't remember your birth or the first few years of your childhood but that doesn't mean it did not happen

A bit more interested in what you posted after your question - why exactly do you want to be anyone's slave? They like that? They see you as a no brain zombie who blindly follows orders? Why would you want to reduce yourself like that?

Life is a Gift - a Gift that God has given us and we get to savor it over and over again. If you do not want life, God is not going to force you - there is no such thing as karma bandham - it is like going to school or paying a debt - you don't have to go to school if you don't want to or pay your debts - but don't think that things will be better - if you choose to not have a life, then you simply will cease to exist - yes no more pain and suffering, but no life either. That is what you want, that is what you will get

Please, as an educated person, think about your choices - don't blindly read ancient texts

Ok, I think I got you on wrong foot. I thought you were arguing against the existence of atma/Soul. No worries

 

[crossfire]

Thank you. The gift of discernment arises on account of khandas?

I would say that discernment arises on account of meditation/observation.

 

[RamaRaksha]

Ok, I think I got you on wrong foot. I thought you were arguing against the existence of atma/Soul. No worries

Again a slave blindly follows orders - no brain matter involved - might as well be a robot or a rock - why would you call yourself that?

Hinduism is a Parent/Teacher faith - you are a Child of God - we are ALL God's children - your place is in God Rama's lap - why would you want to reduce yourself to being a slave? As a student - when a master says the sky is green, every slave blindly agrees, but a student must disagree - that is what makes you a student

I assume you are follower of this swamy - please call yourself that - no need to lower yourself

 

[Papoon]

I would say that discernment arises on account of meditation/observation.

First off, we agreed (you liked my post) a while back that concepts about self are redundant, and right meditation (nirvana, samadhi....) is not contingent on a philosophical view of Atman or of anatta.

But of course we think about such things - or we would not be here discussing them
So I am interested to know about the kind of view you 'lean towards'.

For a view without enduring self (whether temporary or eternal), it would seem that awareness, the meditator, observation itself, is momentary. By momentary I mean each discrete perception (an impersonal process) arises 'packaged' or 'co- emergent' as an aspect of the five skandhas.

Do you view it that way ? And if so, does that correlate with a neurobiological view ?

That is to say, do you interpret the skandhas and momentary emergent consciousness in a biological context ?

 

[crossfire]

First off, we agreed (you liked my post) a while back that concepts about self are redundant, and right meditation (nirvana, samadhi....) is not contingent on a philosophical view of Atman or of anatta.

But of course we think about such things - or we would not be here discussing them
So I am interested to know about the kind of view you 'lean towards'.

For a view without enduring self (whether temporary or eternal), it would seem that awareness, the meditator, observation itself, is momentary. By momentary I mean each discrete perception (an impersonal process) arises 'packaged' or 'co- emergent' as an aspect of the five skandhas.

Do you view it that way ? And if so, does that correlate with a neurobiological view ?

That is to say, do you interpret the skandhas and momentary emergent consciousness in a biological context ?

All of our objective sensory information is processed subjectively, if that is what you are after by way of an answer.

 

[Willamena]

All of our objective sensory information is processed subjectively, if that is what you are after by way of an answer.

That's not the case. Rather, information is processed that is about subjective things, and information is processed that is about objective things.

 

[crossfire]

All of our objective sensory information is processed subjectively, if that is what you are after by way of an answer.

That's not the case. Rather, information is processed that is about subjective things, and information is processed that is about objective things.

Alright, objective information is processed by the brain (as can be inferred from scientific investigation of brain functions,) but that actual information gathered is private to the individual--you cannot objectively "experience" the visual or other sensory information processed by another individual. Sensory information gathered by the individual is subject to the objective biases unique to the individual (such as nearsightedness, high frequency hearing loss, nerve damage, etc.) In this manner, actual sensory information is subjective--private to the individual.

 

[Papoon]

All of our objective sensory information is processed subjectively, if that is what you are after by way of an answer.

My question was really whether you see a direct correlation of the skandhas and neurobiology.

 

[kalyan]

First off, we agreed (you liked my post) a while back that concepts about self are redundant, and right meditation (nirvana, samadhi....) is not contingent on a philosophical view of Atman or of anatta.

But of course we think about such things - or we would not be here discussing them
So I am interested to know about the kind of view you 'lean towards'.

For a view without enduring self (whether temporary or eternal), it would seem that awasreness, the meditator, observation itself, is momentary. By momentary I mean each discrete perception (an impersonal process) arises 'packaged' or 'co- emergent' as an aspect of the five skandhas.

Do you view it that way ? And if so, does that correlate with a neurobiological view ?

That is to say, do you interpret the skandhas and momentary emergent consciousness in a biological context ?

slavery is of 2 kinds, forced slavery with compulsion and slavery or what we call Seva buddhi grown out of extreme love......If you consider yourself as a child of god which is true in sanatana dharma, there might be a chance that might claim independence and instead of going towards Sri Krushna, you might be going away from him which will cause to again rotate in the cycles of life and death. I think you are getting confused here, Paratantryam is jIva's swaroopa, you have to do every activity as directed towards Krushna for his happiness alone.. It might not be apt to call it slavery but it is non-independence I would say but if you say just because I am his child he does not own me and go your own ways, this will only cause damage to you

 

[crossfire]

My question was really whether you see a direct correlation of the skandhas and neurobiology.

Well of course there is the normal, everyday mind-body connection. Sometimes you will also have dissociative states where the mind dissociates from the body, often due to trauma.

 

[RamaRaksha]

slavery is of 2 kinds, forced slavery with compulsion and slavery or what we call Seva buddhi grown out of extreme love......If you consider yourself as a child of god which is true in sanatana dharma, there might be a chance that might claim independence and instead of going towards Sri Krushna, you might be going away from him which will cause to again rotate in the cycles of life and death. I think you are getting confused here, Paratantryam is jIva's swaroopa, you have to do every activity as directed towards Krushna for his happiness alone.. It might not be apt to call it slavery but it is non-independence I would say but if you say just because I am his child he does not own me and go your own ways, this will only cause damage to you

Sad to see your post and justifying a slave mentality - you are a slave to a being you have never seen, don't know what he looks like except from old books, there is a doubt that God even exists - basically you think this way because you think that being will reward you? So, all this talk is ultimately about yourself? How to get the good life for yourself?

Have you ever considered that having Life IS about being with God? Oh wait, life is too hard, so no, God can't be here. You want the good easy life so God must be elsewhere? Manava Seva is Madhava Seva - see that there is much to do down here - animals tortured in factory farms all around the world, children being abducted and sold as sex slaves, discrimination, poverty - when you fight these, that is when you are truly with God

A rock doesn't die, a rock doesn't suffer - a rock doesn't suffer the cycle of life and death - even after all the suns in the universe are burnt out, rocks will still be here - even the earth is a rock

Careful with your choices - you end up going the wrong way

 

[atanu]

I would say that discernment arises on account of meditation/observation.

Yes. Then we come back to the OP. Observation of non existent by the non existent?

 

[crossfire]

Yes. Then we come back to the OP. Observation of non existent by the non existent?

Who said anything about non existence? (I'm not a metaphysical idealist.)

 

[atanu]

Who said anything about non existence? (I'm not a metaphysical idealist.)

That was my question in the OP, which re-surfaced because of your reply that wisdom arises because of observation.

 

[crossfire]

That was my question in the OP, which re-surfaced because of your reply that wisdom arises because of observation.

The three marks of existence are impermanence, dukkha, and anatta, according to Buddhism, which doesn't jive with the OP premise.

 

[atanu]

The three marks of existence are impermanence, dukkha, and anatta, according to Buddhism, which doesn't jive with the OP premise.

Well. I do not agree and hence the OP.

 

[Rick O'Shez]

Yes. Then we come back to the OP. Observation of non existent by the non existent?

Observation of the conditioned by the conditioned is probably closer.

On the other hand the suttas do talk about the unconditioned:

"There is, monks, an unborn[1] — unbecome — unmade — unfabricated. If there were not that unborn — unbecome — unmade — unfabricated, there would not be the case that escape from the born — become — made — fabricated would be discerned. But precisely because there is an unborn — unbecome — unmade — unfabricated, escape from the born — become — made — fabricated is discerned.[2]"
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/kn/ud/ud.8.03.than.html

"Bhikkhus, there are these three characteristics that define the unconditioned. What three? No arising is seen, no vanishing is seen, and no alteration while it persists is seen. These are the three characteristics that define the unconditioned.”
https://suttacentral.net/en/an3.47

 

[Papoon]

slavery is of 2 kinds, forced slavery with compulsion and slavery or what we call Seva buddhi grown out of extreme love......If you consider yourself as a child of god which is true in sanatana dharma, there might be a chance that might claim independence and instead of going towards Sri Krushna, you might be going away from him which will cause to again rotate in the cycles of life and death. I think you are getting confused here, Paratantryam is jIva's swaroopa, you have to do every activity as directed towards Krushna for his happiness alone.. It might not be apt to call it slavery but it is non-independence I would say but if you say just because I am his child he does not own me and go your own ways, this will only cause damage to you

"Apart from prakriti, there is also a superior energy of Mine, paraprakriti, which consists of all those beings consciously mastering prakriti"

 

[atanu]

The three marks of existence are impermanence, dukkha, and anatta, according to Buddhism, which doesn't jive with the OP premise.

Well. I do not agree and hence the OP.

My earlier reply was made in a hurry. I will repeat that if anatta and impermanence characterise existence then what observes and keeps tracks of khanda sponsored temporary arisings?

In this regard, I note that, IMO, Buddhist and Norman have already explained it adequately..

My point is that wisdom really cannot arise. IMO, wisdom can be unraveled by stripping away the veil of ignorance. For example, as long as we associate self with mind-body, we are perturbed by rise of lust. However, when it is realised that lust arises in khandas, which do not constitute the self, perturbation ceases. This is just an example.