• Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:
    • Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
    • Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
    • Access to private conversations with other members.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!

Demystifying Quantum Physics

fantome profane

Anti-Woke = Anti-Justice
Premium Member
It is a half-truth, if you will. Einstein made it clear he believed in the God of Spinoza, leaning to pantheism and claimed agnosticism, while giving a nod to Buddhsm. He also made it clear he did not give credence to a personal, anthropomorphic deity.



I think his spirituality went a bit beyond that. If it is true that he was a pantheist, then we are talking about an intelligent universe, and 'material' is more than it would imply to the ordinary mind:

"Albert Einstein's religious views have been studied extensively. He said he believed in the "pantheistic" God of Baruch Spinoza, but not in a personal god, a belief he criticized. He also called himself an agnostic, while disassociating himself from the label atheist..."
Religious views of Albert Einstein - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

"Pantheism is the belief that everything composes an all-encompassing, immanent God,[1] or that the universe (or nature) is identical with divinity. Pantheists thus do not believe in a personal or anthropomorphic god."
Pantheism - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia



"I am fascinated by Spinoza's Pantheism. I admire even more his contributions to modern thought. Spinoza is the greatest of modern philosophers, because he is the first philosopher who deals with the soul and the body as one, not as two separate things."
Albert Einstein


When you talk about things like "intelligence", "consciousness" or "awareness" these things are anthropomorphizations. A pantheist is not required to view the universe in these ways. And I am not sure Einstien was a pantheist.
In other words, Einstein saw the 'material' world infused with spirit, with consciousness.

This is where you make your mistake. There is no need to express Einstien's ideas here "in other words". The words he chose were completely suited for expressing his ideas. Your "other words" seem to me to ascribe ideas to Einstien that I am not sure are correct. If Einstein had wanted to say infused with spirit or consciousness I think he would have.
 

godnotgod

Thou art That
To me it sounds like Einstein is speaking against dualism and emphasizing the logic of monism. Einstein is not bringing yet another substance to call consciousness. Even with that we can't say Einstein was pantheist but who could blame him if he was :).

We can't, but in his own words, he both leaned toward Spinoza's pantheist ideas, and said of himself that he did not know if he could be called a pantheist, meaning he might be.

The point, however, is that 'body and soul' as one can be extrapolated to 'material and spiritual'. Both mean consciousness is present. Einstein spoke of the spirit and God, but not of the antrhopomorphic God, that he gave credence to.
 

godnotgod

Thou art That
fantôme profane;3311312 said:
When you talk about things like "intelligence", "consciousness" or "awareness" these things are anthropomorphizations. A pantheist is not required to view the universe in these ways. And I am not sure Einstien was a pantheist.

No, we can't, as I mentioned in my previous post to idav. However, 'intelligence, consciousness, and awareness' are not necessarily anthropomorphic. The universe can be all.

This is where you make your mistake. There is no need to express Einstien's ideas here "in other words". The words he chose were completely suited for expressing his ideas. Your "other words" seem to me to ascribe ideas to Einstien that I am not sure are correct. If Einstein had wanted to say infused with spirit or consciousness I think he would have.

There is no other way to interpret his words when he refers to body and soul as one. Man is not an isolated entity. What he is comprised of so goes the universe, or rather, vice-versa, as man comes out of the universe. It is an intelligent universe that brings forth intelligent things. If body and mind are one, then material and spirit are also one. If they are not, then please show me where one leaves off and the other begins. As I mentioned earlier, Einstein spoke several times about God and spirit in connection to nature. That is about consciousness, not a dead material universe.
 

YmirGF

Bodhisattva in Recovery
That is about consciousness, not a dead material universe.
Don't you find it a bit peculiar that such a deeply analytical mind would avoid using the terms you are assuming? If that is what Einstein meant, I'm pretty sure he would have said so. That he didn't is very telling. Plus... we would have to know the context the remarks were given in.
 

fantome profane

Anti-Woke = Anti-Justice
Premium Member
No, we can't, as I mentioned in my previous post to idav. However, 'intelligence, consciousness, and awareness' are not necessarily anthropomorphic. The universe can be all.
But the universe does not need to be any of these things. And if the universe contains intelligence and consciousness now, it certainly cannot be shown that this has always been the case (or that it always will).

If it is not anthropomorphic, it still seems to be an analogy to something with a neurological structure. And I still say it is unnecessary.

There is no other way to interpret his words when he refers to body and soul as one. Man is not an isolated entity. What he is comprised of so goes the universe, or rather, vice-versa, as man comes out of the universe. It is an intelligent universe that brings forth intelligent things. If body and mind are one, then material and spirit are also one. If they are not, then please show me where one leaves off and the other begins. As I mentioned earlier, Einstein spoke several times about God and spirit in connection to nature. That is about consciousness, not a dead material universe.
The problem for me is the unfounded assumption that " It is an intelligent universe that brings forth intelligent things". If the intent here is that intelligence in the universe must precede the development of intelligent life then I find that irrational. It avoids the question of how intelligence came to be by simply bald assertion that it always was. This assertion is not only unfounded, but it explains nothing.


And I am not comfortable in attributing this idea to Einstein (nor Spinoza for that matter)
 
Last edited:

Penumbra

Veteran Member
Premium Member
In addition to the previous quotes from 'Big Guns' about this that other people posted (like where he specifically stated he didn't believe in an afterlife), here's one on inner experiences and the emptiness of the idea of souls without bodies.

The mystical trend of our time, which shows itself particularly in the rampant growth of the so-called Theosophy and Spiritualism, is for me no more than a symptom of weakness and confusion. Since our inner experiences consist of reproductions, and combinations of sensory impressions, the concept of a soul without a body seem to me to be empty and devoid of meaning.

- Albert Einstein, letter of February 5, 1921


Chopra's material about consciousness existing in quantum ways and being largely independent of the brain seems to be something that Einstein would have completely disagreed with.
 

LegionOnomaMoi

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Nope. When we talk about life
...we're not talking about what Einstein meant. If we talk about what Einstein meant, then we find problems with your interpretations:
It is a half-truth, if you will. Einstein made it clear he believed in the God of Spinoza, leaning to pantheism and claimed agnosticism, while giving a nod to Buddhsm.
Einstein actually said "I’m not an atheist, and I don’t think I can call myself a pantheist." (from Jammer's Einstein and Religion, p. 48).

I think his spirituality went a bit beyond that. If it is true that he was a pantheist, then we are talking about an intelligent universe, and 'material' is more than it would imply to the ordinary mind:

This is what happens when you don't bother to try to understand context. Case in point:

"I am fascinated by Spinoza's Pantheism. I admire even more his contributions to modern thought. Spinoza is the greatest of modern philosophers, because he is the first philosopher who deals with the soul and the body as one, not as two separate things."

What I quoted above (when Einstein says he doesn't think he can call himself a pantheist) and this quote are from the same source:

"I’m not an atheist, and I don’t think I can call myself a pantheist...I am fascinated by Spinoza’s pantheism, but admire even more his contribution to modern thought because he is the first philosopher to deal with the soul and body as one, and not two separate things."

In other words, Einstein saw the 'material' world infused with spirit, with consciousness.
Have you actually read Spinoza (in some translation)?Or a commentary on his work? The idea that Spinoza believed the "soul and body as one" was understood (and still is) as early physicalism: "God must be identical with the whole of Nature, including all of its contents. This is because the properties or states of a thing are the thing, existing in particular manner. Thus, God is both the universal elements of Nature – substance, its attributes and whatever they involve – as well as all of the things that are (immanently) caused by and belong to those natures, right down to the lowest level of particularity. God is material nature"

But God is not actually all of "nature" only natura naturans. In English, we might say "physical nature". Spinoza wrote about materialism. He rejected the dualism of Descartes, and Descartes mind/body distinction, but that's because everything is either physical or is an attribute or property of some physical "thing" (res). The sole exception Spinoza explains (at one point, as he explains the same elsewhere) using a person and death. When someone dies, the only thing that remains of them is the idea of that person which another has. So, for example, Spinoza would tell me that my Grandparents are dead, their souls do not remain but died with their bodies, as did their minds/consciousness. All that remains of them is the ideas/memories others (like me) have of them.


When understood this way, the so-called 'material world' becomes transformed
When understood the way you would understand it it can become anything you want. If you want to understand what Einstein actually meant, you'd have to start actually reading more that quotes. Einstein references Spinoza. He does this because as a German intellectual writing (in this case) ~1930, he is situating his understanding of reality not just in terms of his own descriptions but in relationship to the ideas of another (and how that other, Spinoza, was interpreted/understood).

This awe is an intuitive 'seeing', rather than a systematically thought out concept about what one sees.
Which is why Einstein is noted for his brilliant works in metaphysics, his critique of materialism and physicalism, his passionate exposition on immateriality and the intuitive nature of true discovery, and unicorns.

Only he isn't. He's famous because his love of discovery through science caused him to dedicate his life to physics, which was then (and to a lesser extent still is) the science of discovering the fundamental, elementary material which makes up our physical reality. He's also famous because his work was foundational to quantum physics, which to him seemed too immaterial, too illogical, too distinct from what physics is supposed to be.

For Einstein, physics was what we now call classical physics. And it had to work, without any new "quantum physics", because it treats the cosmos as fundamentally deterministic and physical/material (Einstein himself showed that even energy was matter). As Einstein believed this was true, QM must be flawed.

But back to the original point that Einstein referred to an intuitive view as the basis for science, his statement is clear

He never said that. He did say this: "Höchste Aufgabe des Physikers ist also das Aufsuchen jener allgemeinsten elementaren Gesetze, aus denen durch reine Deduktion das Weltbild zu gewinnen ist. Zu diesen elementaren Gesetzen führt kein logischer Weg, sondern nur die auf Einfühlung in die Erfahrung sich stützende Intuition."

"The fundamental task (or "supreme goal") of the physicist is the search for the fundamental elementary laws from which, through pure deductive reasoning, the structure of the universe can extracted. To these elementary laws no logical path leads, but rather inspiration supported by heartfelt experience."
 
Last edited:
Sigh ... yes I watched it. I agree with TED, he's rambling and he lectures about quantum physics about as well as a chimp piloting a jumbo jet.
That is shameful for a supposed scientist to say. It shows your ignorance and lack of understanding and appreciation for the real intelligence chimpanzees possess. ...
You are right. I owe chimps piloting jumbo jets an apology.


.... sorry I couldn't resist .... ;)


All kidding aside, the first thing Chopra says about QM is that the first premise is that there is no energy .... etc. Simply not true.
 

LegionOnomaMoi

Veteran Member
Premium Member
It is a half-truth, if you will. Einstein made it clear he believed in the God of Spinoza, leaning to pantheism and claimed agnosticism, while giving a nod to Buddhsm. He also made it clear he did not give credence to a personal, anthropomorphic deity.
So long as we're quote mining Einstein, we may as well see what he said about religion and religious figures.

"No one can read the Gospels without feeling the actual presence of Jesus."

When asked what relativity, perhaps his greatest achievement, had to do with religion, he replied "None. Relativity is a purely scientific matter and has nothing to do with religion"

As for Spinoza, "men like Democritus, Francis of Assisi, and Spinoza are closely akin to one another".

When Viereck asked him how much Christianity influenced him, Einstein replied "As a child I received instruction both in the Bible and in the Talmud. I am a Jew, but I am enthralled by the luminous figure of the Nazarene".

Also on Jesus, "haben die Besten des jüdischen Volkes, im besonderen die Propheten und Jesus, unermüdlich gekämpft" ("the greatest of the Jewish people, in particular the prophets and Jesus, have fought unceasingly").

"The scientist is possessed by the sense of universal causation. His religious feeling takes the form of a rapturous amazement at the harmony of natural law, which reveals an intelligence of such superiority that , compared with it, all the systematic thinking and acting of human beings is an utterly insignificant reflection."

But what about the nod to buddhism? "What humanity owes to personalities like Buddha, Moses, and Jesus ranks for me higher than all the achievements of the inquiring constructive mind."

A nod to Buddha, who sits comfortably for Einstein alongside Jesus and Moses.

Or (from Einstein and Religion): "Unlike Bohr, Schr¨odinger, and Bohm, Einstein never showed any interest in Far Eastern philosophy and never expressed any sympathy with Oriental religious thought or mysticism. On the contrary, he condemned 'the mystical trend of our time . . . as a symptom of weakness and confusion.'"
 

godnotgod

Thou art That
fantôme profane;3311376 said:
But the universe does not need to be any of these things. And if the universe contains intelligence and consciousness now, it certainly cannot be shown that this has always been the case (or that it always will).

So we are back to square one in trying to explain how consciousness, which is non-material, emerged from a purely material world.

If it is not anthropomorphic, it still seems to be an analogy to something with a neurological structure.

Could it be that the neurological structure is merely something consciousness uses? Many bodily functions are autonomous. If consciousness had to keep them constantly in mind, so to speak, it would be impossible for the organism to function. Everything would be a task. So these tasks, like the beating of the heart, breathing, etc, are kept out of the way of what consciousness wants to focus on. This concept of consciousness being behind all that the universe is, would fit into everything the universe is doing, with or without neurological structure. We think of having a brain as a being that is higher up on the evolutionary scale, and yet, a blade of grass which has no such structure, can photosynthesize, while we cannot.

One small piece of evidence for the idea of consciousness growing the brain, rather than the other way around, are documented studies of Buddhist monks who have meditated for many years. Their cerebral cortexes are larger than those of ordinary people.


And I still say it is unnecessary.

It may be neither necessary, nor unnecessary. It just is the way things are.

The problem for me is the unfounded assumption that " It is an intelligent universe that brings forth intelligent things". If the intent here is that intelligence in the universe must precede the development of intelligent life then I find that irrational. It avoids the question of how intelligence came to be by simply bald assertion that it always was. This assertion is not only unfounded, but it explains nothing.

Actually, it explains everything. However, though it may not be rational, it is not irrational. It's just non-rational.

And I am not comfortable in attributing this idea to Einstein (nor Spinoza for that matter)

I don't have the quote in front of me, but Einstein said something to the effect that he wanted to know how God created the material world.
 
Last edited:

LegionOnomaMoi

Veteran Member
Premium Member
So we are back to square one in trying to explain how consciousness, which is non-material, emerged from a purely material world.
We never left square one.

And as for consciousness, "which is non-material", and how it might emerge in a material world, well we have lots of examples. Ants have colonies. Colonies are non-material. You can point to ants just like you can neurons, but you can't say "this is the colony" anymore than you can "this is consciousness". Colonies, eco-systems, climate, social, and on and on, are all "non-material". This is because we use words to generalize properties we observe in the material world. Language is completely and utterly immaterial. No matter how much one tries to reduce to sounds, vocal cords, some "language faculty", etc., it is an abstraction. It is non-material because, like consciousness, it is a type or exemplar applied to an incredibily diverse range of tokes/particular examples.

Non-material, as you seem to define it, describes things like hatred, bigotry, prejudice, immorality, stupidity, ignorance, and many other things. Not because materialism somehow can explain these things, but because they are linguistic expressions of conceptual prototypes applied to diverse instantiations. Saying "consciousness is non-material" is nothing more than saying the alphabet is non-material, because it says nothing and is of equal import.



Could it be that the neurological structure is merely something consciousness uses?
Yes.


If consciousness had to keep them constantly in mind
It doesn't.

This concept of consciousness being behind all that the universe is, would fit into everything the universe is doing, with or without neurological structure.
Sure. If you define this concept of consciousness as being exactly what you just described, then it magically fits. Of course, I can describe consciousness as the way the universe demonstrates that it made humans because it wants to torture them, or as ratings of popular shows. The question isn't about trying to fit consciousness or reality into what you want it to be, because that is easily done. It's trying to figure out what it is despite your beliefs that is difficult.


We think of having a brain as a being that is higher up on the evolutionary scale,
Who's "we"?

and yet, a blade of grass which has no such structure
It has an incredibly complex structure. We can build supercomputers from basic parts. We can't do this with a blade of grass.


One small piece of evidence for the idea of consciousness growing the brain, rather than the other way around, are documented studies of Buddhist monks who have meditated for many years. Their cerebral cortexes are larger than those of ordinary people.
1) Having a larger cortex is almost utterly meaningless by itself
2) This is a verifiable claim you could support with studies, which are the only way you could possibly know this (you or anybody, actually). What studies?
 

godnotgod

Thou art That
He never said that. He did say this: "Höchste Aufgabe des Physikers ist also das Aufsuchen jener allgemeinsten elementaren Gesetze, aus denen durch reine Deduktion das Weltbild zu gewinnen ist. Zu diesen elementaren Gesetzen führt kein logischer Weg, sondern nur die auf Einfühlung in die Erfahrung sich stützende Intuition."

"The fundamental task (or "supreme goal") of the physicist is the search for the fundamental elementary laws from which, through pure deductive reasoning, the structure of the universe can extracted. To these elementary laws no logical path leads, but rather inspiration supported by heartfelt experience."

Heh...heh....Now, I don't speak German and what I know of it comes to me as a classical music enthusiast and the little German I learned in Beginning German in college, but the last German word in the Einstein quote you post here, 'Intuition', translates directly both from German to English and back again as 'intuition', in the 5 onlilne translators I randomly chose. In addition, two whole phrase translators for your exact German quote, though awkward, are quite amazing, and both come up with:


'Supreme task of the physicist is the exploration of that most common fundamental laws, from which the world and the universe through pure deduction is to win. To these basic laws, no logical way, but only on empathy in the experience supporting Intuition.'

There seems to be no escaping Einstein's use of the word 'intuition'.

Now when I put YOUR English translation into a text translator, it comes up with:


Die grundlegende Aufgabe (oder „das Oberste Ziel“) des Physikers ist die Suche nach den grundlegenden grundlegenden Gesetzen, von denen, durch reine deduktive Argumentation, die Struktur des Universums extrahiert kann. Zu diesen grundlegenden Gesetzen führt kein logischer Weg, aber eher die Inspiration, die durch tief empfunden Erfahrung gestützt wird

...which does NOT contain the German word 'Intuition' as your original German quote does.

Then, putting THAT translation back in for English, the translator comes up with:


The basic task (or "the top target") of the physicist is the search for the basic fundamental laws, of which, by pure deductive reasoning, the structure of the universe can be extracted. To these basic laws, no logical way, but rather the inspiration, the deeply felt experience is supported by

I was just having a bit of fun, but it is quite revealing. It's the case of the disappearing 'Intuition', LOL:D
 

godnotgod

Thou art That
and yet, a blade of grass which has no such structure

It has an incredibly complex structure. We can build supercomputers from basic parts. We can't do this with a blade of grass.


I meant a blade of grass has no complex neurological structure, as humans and animals do, and yet, it can perform the complex process of photosynthesis.

Can supercomputers photosynthesize
?
 

LegionOnomaMoi

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Heh...heh....Now, I don't speak German and what I know of it comes to me as a classical music enthusiast and the little German I learned in Beginning German in college, but the last German word in the Einstein quote you post here, 'Intuition', translates directly both from German to English and back again as 'intuition', in the 5 onlilne translators I randomly chose.

Wow! You used online translators for a single word and you got answers! Amazing. Let's see what happens when you try to do this with phrases:
'Supreme task of the physicist is the exploration of that most common fundamental laws, from which the world and the universe through pure deduction is to win. To these basic laws, no logical way, but only on empathy in the experience supporting Intuition.'

That's not Einstein. That's Yoda. Perhaps the fact that
1) you can't read german
2) you have next to no knowledge of any of Einstein's works
3) you have next to no knowledge of language itself or linguistics
4) your understanding of Einstein comes from various websites you come across
5) your knowledge of translation and what is involved with this process is nil


But I'm sure you're knowledge of language, physics, and history here are adequate. I'm not quite sure how "no knowledge" or "almost no knowledge" becomes "adequate", but you apparently do.

There seems to be no escaping Einstein's use of the word 'intuition'.
None at all. Except any experience with translation and language. Tell me, what's the English translation of the German Schadenfreude? How do I say "it's obvious" in German? How would I translate c'est into German, and why and when woudl I use this rather than il y a?

I was just having a bit of fun, but it is quite revealing. It's the case of the disappearing 'Intuition', LOL:D
Here's the "fun" part. Words like "intuition", "meditation", "mystic", etc., have histories going back far longer than your usage. I could use "intuition" in my translation, sure. But the problem is that you see "intuition" as something Einstein did not. Because you read into whatever quote mined statement you come across (even if it turns out not to be from Einstein but an ex-convict) whatever you want. And as you don't understand Einstein's work, physics, Einstein's history in 20th century physics, or German, you feel free to make what you want out of whatever you come across.

I'm not sure how your "knowledge' of German, Einstein, physics, and 20th century German intellectualism as well as European academia will somehow transform Einstein's disdain for mystical knowledge into whatever you want, but I have no doubt your ability to utterly ignore whatever you please will triumph.
 
Last edited:

idav

Being
Premium Member
In addition to the previous quotes from 'Big Guns' about this that other people posted (like where he specifically stated he didn't believe in an afterlife), here's one on inner experiences and the emptiness of the idea of souls without bodies.

The mystical trend of our time, which shows itself particularly in the rampant growth of the so-called Theosophy and Spiritualism, is for me no more than a symptom of weakness and confusion. Since our inner experiences consist of reproductions, and combinations of sensory impressions, the concept of a soul without a body seem to me to be empty and devoid of meaning.

- Albert Einstein, letter of February 5, 1921

Chopra's material about consciousness existing in quantum ways and being largely independent of the brain seems to be something that Einstein would have completely disagreed with.
Hard to demystify QM when Einstein describes it as "spooky" but he wouldn't take it as far as Chopra that's for sure.

[I can't accept quantum mechanics because] "I like to think the moon is there even if I am not looking at it."
Albert Einstein

I tend to think there are better explanations for QM than "reality forming when we look at it" or "electrons choosing a path based on whether people are looking". Magic tricks have reasonable explanations.
 

godnotgod

Thou art That


Wow! You used online translators for a single word and you got answers! Amazing. Let's see what happens when you try to do this with phrases:


That's not Einstein. That's Yoda. Perhaps the fact that
1) you can't read german
2) you have next to no knowledge of any of Einstein's works
3) you have next to no knowledge of language itself or linguistics
4) your understanding of Einstein comes from various websites you come across
5) your knowledge of translation and what is involved with this process is nil


But I'm sure you're knowledge of language, physics, and history here are adequate. I'm not quite sure how "no knowledge" or "almost no knowledge" becomes "adequate", but you apparently do.


None at all. Except any experience with translation and language. Tell me, what's the English translation of the German Schadenfreude? How do I say "it's obvious" in German? How would I translate c'est into German, and why and when woudl I use this rather than il y a?


Here's the "fun" part. Words like "intuition", "meditation", "mystic", etc., have histories going back far longer than your usage. I could use "intuition" in my translation, sure. But the problem is that you see "intuition" as something Einstein did not. Because you read into whatever quote mined statement you come across (even if it turns out not to be from Einstein but an ex-convict) whatever you want. And as you don't understand Einstein's work, physics, Einstein's history in 20th century physics, or German, you feel free to make what you want out of whatever you come across.

I'm not sure how your "knowledge' of German, Einstein, physics, and 20th century German intellectualism as well as European academia will somehow transform Einstein's disdain for mystical knowledge into whatever you want, but I have no doubt your ability to utterly ignore whatever you please will triumph.

I suppose I'll need to work on my Phd. in German and Physics to barely get a handle on the word 'Intuition'. Then I can condescend on those who lack such 'knowledge' to brow beat them into submission.

Of course, YOUR translation is the correct one, and we should all ignore the popular one, as well as the clear-cut translation of 'intuition' as 'intuition'. Sorry, but that is what I accept, and not yours, as you have no official authority to be the arbiter of such matters, regardless of what credentials you claim. As far as I am concerned, you have deliberately ignored the inclusion of this word in both German and English to craft your own version to fit your own meaning of what Einstein intended, in order to suit your own view.

Even without the word 'Intuition', Einstein's statement says:


"To these elementary laws no logical path leads..."

...which means there is only one other logical choice, and that is the non-logical. In fact, it is not even mystical yet, intuition being only the basis for the mystical experience. But then, whether Einstein was mystical is not even the issue; that he employed the intuitive pathway in approaching science is.

intuition

> the ability to understand something immediately, without the need for conscious reasoning:

> a thing that one knows or considers likely from instinctive feeling rather than conscious reasoning
Definition of intuition in Oxford Dictionaries (US English) (US)
*****
intuition

Definition of INTUITION

1: quick and ready insight
2a : immediate apprehension or cognition
b : knowledge or conviction gained by intuition
c : the power or faculty of attaining to direct knowledge or cognition without evident rational thought and inference
Intuition - Definition and More from the Free Merriam-Webster Dictionary

That is good enough for me. If you want to ramble on apoplectically about specialized knowledge and secret meanings, be my guest. I'm done.:beach:

BTW, "...inspiration supported by heartfelt experience." is none other than intuition.:)
 
Last edited:
Actually I didn't think the Einstein quote about "inspiration" and "intuition" could be pressed into the service Godnotgod wanted even assuming his translation was correct. The Einstein quote (as translated) says that physicists look for fundamental laws from which everything that happens in the universe can be deduced, but usually we can't go the other way and deduce the laws, instead we use the guess-and-check method. Yep. Nothing controversial there. That's how Richard Feynman described the scientific method, and he rejected "expanded consciousness, new types of awareness, ESP and so forth" as unscientific.
[youtube]EYPapE-3FRw[/youtube]
Feynman on Scientific Method. - YouTube
 
Last edited:

godnotgod

Thou art That
The Einstein quote (as translated) says that... we can't go the other way and deduce the laws, instead we use the guess-and-check method.

Intuition is not a 'guess and check' method. You're just trying to pooh pooh it. It is the basis of all knowledge, in the form of metaphysic:


METAPHYSIC*: The indefinable basis of knowledge. Metaphysical knowledge or "realization" is an intense clarity of attention to that indefinable and immediate "point" of knowledge which is always "now", and from which all other knowledge is elaborated by reflective thought. A consciousness
of "life" in which the mind is not trying to grasp or define what it knows.

*The singular form is used to distinguish it from the "metaphysics" of
Aristotle, Descartes, Spinoza, Kant, and Hegel, which constitute a viciously
circular attempt to make factual statements about that which transcends facts, in other words, to make that which is metaphysical an object of scientific knowledge. In modern Western thought, something of an approach to a true metaphysic may best be found in the "metalinguistics" of B. L. Whorf and others. See his "Language, Mind, and Reality".

Alan Watts; 'Myth and Ritual in Christianity'
 
Last edited:

LegionOnomaMoi

Veteran Member
Premium Member
I suppose I'll need to work on my Phd. in German and Physics to barely get a handle on the word 'Intuition'.

No, a simple dictionary would work, if you weren't trying to manipulate what you read to make it fit what you want. If you think you can twist some quote into indicating what you wish, you use it. If you don't, you ignore it:
"Unlike Bohr, Schrödinger, and Bohm, Einstein never showed any interest in Far Eastern philosophy and never expressed any sympathy with Oriental religious thought or mysticism. On the contrary, he condemned 'the mystical trend of our time . . . as a symptom of weakness and confusion.'"

The mystical trend of our time, which shows itself particularly in the rampant growth of the so-called Theosophy and Spiritualism, is for me no more than a symptom of weakness and confusion. Since our inner experiences consist of reproductions, and combinations of sensory impressions, the concept of a soul without a body seem to me to be empty and devoid of meaning.

- Albert Einstein, letter of February 5, 1921

Chopra's material about consciousness existing in quantum ways and being largely independent of the brain seems to be something that Einstein would have completely disagreed with.

Then I can condescend on those who lack such 'knowledge' to brow beat them into submission.

It's not that you lack knowledge. I've supplied Einstein's quotes in context, I've given you other quotes, others have quoted Einstein, and I've provided you with links to his words.

You ignore all this. What would Einstein know about what Einstein thinks? You understand him so well because...you read a few quotes. And even though you have touted the importance of quantum physics around as evidence of whatever nonsense you can come up with, you picked as a scientific hero the single most ardent critic of all things mystic and quantum physics out of the "big names" behind the development of QM.


Of course, YOUR translation is the correct one
There is no such thing as a "correct" translation. All translations are inadequate in some way. That's just a given.


as well as the clear-cut translation of 'intuition' as 'intuition'.

No, we could use the clear cut word "intuition", but you aren't. You wish to see Einstein as using intuition instead of logic. As for clear cut meaning, as long as we're going with meanings we may as well look at a dictionary in the right language. From the Wahrig Deutsches Wörterbuch:
Intuition:
1) Eingebung, unmittelbare Anschauung ohne wissenschaftlich Erkenntis.
2) Fähigkeit, verwickelte Vorgänge sofort richtig zu erfassen



As far as I am concerned, you have deliberately ignored the inclusion of this word in both German and English to craft your own version to fit your own meaning of what Einstein intended, in order to suit your own view.

Funny, because a german dictionary uses Eingebung to define Intuition. As for my view, I don't rely on quote mining websites to understand someone while ignoring his life's work. This is one word, in one sentence, in one speech. Einstein dedicated his entire life to physics and science, but you want to reduce him to a word.

Even without the word 'Intuition', Einstein's statement says:

"To these elementary laws no logical path leads..."

...which means there is only one other logical choice, and that is the non-logical.

Intuition" is NOT throwing reason, logic, and an analytical approach out the window. It's simply a basic fact that theories in science require something more than pure logic and empiricism, because those are the tools to test hypotheses, models, and theories. The same is true in mathematics. Right now, most mathematicians think that Riemann's hypothesis is probably right. Having worked with proofs for years and years, it seems like it's true. But no one has been able to prove it. And this mathematics! You can't get more logical than proofs. Yet there is an intuitive sense that the Riemann hypothesis is correct. Are mathematicians using the "non-logical choice"?

Here's someone else's translation of, in it's entirety: Prinzipien der Forschung. I've reproduced some of it below for you, because you don't seem that interested in actually knowing what Einstein thought or meant, and it's a lot longer than a single quote.

"In my belief the name is justified; for the general laws on which the structure of theoretical physics is based claim to be valid for any natural phenomenon whatsoever. With them, it ought to be possible to arrive at the description, that is to say, the theory, of every natural process, including life, by means of pure deduction, if that process of deduction were not far beyond the capacity of the human intellect. The physicist's renunciation of completeness for his cosmos is therefore not a matter of fundamental principle.
The supreme task of the physicist is to arrive at those universal elementary laws from which the cosmos can be built up by pure deduction. There is no logical path to these laws; only intuition, resting on sympathetic understanding of experience, can reach them. In this methodological uncertainty, one might suppose that there were any number of possible systems of theoretical physics all equally well justified; and this opinion is no doubt correct, theoretically. But the development of physics has shown that at any given moment, out of all conceivable constructions, a single one has always proved itself decidedly superior to all the rest."

He ends with: "May the love of science continue to illumine his path in the future and lead him to the solution of the most important problem in present-day physics, which he has himself posed and done so much to solve. May he succeed in uniting quantum theory with electrodynamics and mechanics in a single logical system."

So, not my translation, and with context, both what I've quoted and the entire piece if you follow the link.


that he employed the intuitive pathway in approaching science is.
What does he say the pathway is to? Science? No. What does he say this pathway requires? Experience. But what kind? And why? And why does he end with this thing about "a single logical system"? Why, if intuition is so important, is such emphasis placed on "pure deduction"?

Of course, Einstein was wrong. At the fundamental level were not the basic laws he was looking for, but indeterminism.



intuition
I gave you the German definition from a German dictionary. As long as you are going to read into the word whatever you want and ignore Einstein's entire life's work because you like a few quotes, you may as well manipulate the definition given in German.
 
Last edited:
Top