Democracy is Dead

[Thief]

so says Lester Thurow in his 2004 speech

and explains that representation of senators ….two per state
does not represent the voting majority

our founding fathers would be appalled
as California having soooooo many people
is represented by only two people in Senate

but the fathers did not for see California as the fifth largest
economy on the planet

the smaller states …..Republican for the most part
carry the vote in that manner

that is not the voting majority

rebuttals?

 

[Altfish]

so says Lester Thurow in his 2004 speech

and explains that representation of senators ….two per state
does not represent the voting majority

our founding fathers would be appalled
as California having soooooo many people
is represented by only two people in Senate

but the fathers did not for see California as the fifth largest
economy on the planet

the smaller states …..Republican for the most part
carry the vote in that manner

that is not the voting majority

rebuttals?

In many countries democracy is indeed broke. First past the post is inherently unfair; some form of proportional representation is the fairest.

 

[Thief]

if we get there.....maybe some proposals about how to fix it

 

[Revoltingest]

rebuttals?

We vote.
Candidates win office.
That's democracy (shortcomings notwithstanding).

Do you vote?

 

[Thief]

We vote.
Candidates win office.
That's democracy (shortcomings notwithstanding).

Do you vote?

yeah.....

but have seen the expose; about the voting machines built by Diebolt?

omg

 

[Revoltingest]

yeah.....

but have seen the expose; about the voting machines built by Diebolt?

omg

People are always exposing them.
But voting results still seem to reflect votes cast.

Polls...how trustworthy are those?

 

[Thief]

People are always exposing them.
But voting results still seem to reflect votes cast.

Polls...how trustworthy are those?

THEY ARE NOT TRUSTWORTHY

see expose'......the Great Hack
Netflix

 

[Altfish]

We vote.
Candidates win office.
That's democracy (shortcomings notwithstanding).

Do you vote?

Yes, I vote but rarely does my vote of the other 49% who vote similarly to me (ie vote for a candidate who doesn't win)
Tomorrow in our constituency the Tories will win, I still vote but my vote is worthless.

 

[Altfish]

People are always exposing them.
But voting results still seem to reflect votes cast.

Polls...how trustworthy are those?

In the last Presidential election Trump lost the popular vote by 3 million - so more people wanted Clinton to be President.
That can't be right?

 

[Thief]

In the last Presidential election Trump lost the popular vote by 3 million - so more people wanted Clinton to be President.
That can't be right?

see that item.....the Great Hack

you will be informed
and appalled

 

[Heyo]

so says Lester Thurow in his 2004 speech

and explains that representation of senators ….two per state
does not represent the voting majority

That's why there are two chambers, the House, where, theoretically, each representative should stand for roughly the same number of voters, and the Senate where each State has the same number of representatives.
The problem arises with the Electoral College where the states have more power than the people.

 

[Heyo]

yeah.....

but have seen the expose; about the voting machines built by Diebolt?

omg

Already shifting the goalposts?
Yep, the voting machines are a big problem, so is voter suppression and Gerrymandering.

 

[HonestJoe]

and explains that representation of senators ….two per state
does not represent the voting majority

Isn't that the whole point? Senators represent their states while Congress represents the people. Otherwise the populous states could overwhelm all the others.

our founding fathers would be appalled

I suspect the population of California would be low on the list of things in the USA today that would appal the Founding Fathers.

the smaller states …..Republican for the most part

In the Senate yes, but not in Congress.

I don't think you could "solve" this "problem" without dissolving the Republic (effectively or literally) and I think you'd struggle to sell that to most Americans.

 

[Ponder This]

Counter-points?

Obviously, House of Representatives has representatives assigned according to population size.

Another obvious point is that, in the first place, the US government is a Republic as opposed to a Democracy.

A third point is that the founding fathers wanted smaller states to maintain their representation in the face of larger, potentially bullying, states.

Perhaps Lester Thurow is less-informed when he speaks outside of his chosen field of economics?

*should I be appalled*

 

[Altfish]

see that item.....the Great Hack

you will be informed
and appalled

I have and am

 

[Revoltingest]

....I still vote but my vote is worthless.

Such is democracy when there are many of voters.
In no system of government is the individual entitled to win.

 

[BSM1]

so says Lester Thurow in his 2004 speech

and explains that representation of senators ….two per state
does not represent the voting majority

our founding fathers would be appalled
as California having soooooo many people
is represented by only two people in Senate

but the fathers did not for see California as the fifth largest
economy on the planet

the smaller states …..Republican for the most part
carry the vote in that manner

that is not the voting majority

rebuttals?

The Senators represent the state. Originally they were supposed to be appointed by the state, not elected. The Representatives represent the population, and the number of Reps are determined by the population. Not sure where you're going with this.

 

[Altfish]

Such is democracy when there are many of voters.
In no system of government is the individual entitled to win.

No, but in proportional representation it counts.

 

[Revoltingest]

No, but in proportional representation it counts.

There are multiple ways to implement proportional representation.
All inspire some objection.
Does the lack of perfection or pleasing of everyone mean democracy
is impossible? Only if one uses an unrealistically strict definition.
But I say that a representative democratic republic is "democracy" enuf.

 

[Altfish]

There are multiple ways to implement proportional representation.
All inspire some objection.
Does the lack of perfection or pleasing of everyone mean democracy
is impossible? Only if one uses an unrealistically strict definition.
But I say that a representative democratic republic is "democracy" enuf.

Of course there are multiple ways of PR, but all are inherently fairer.

If you have (say) 3 states/constituencies that vote as below
State 1 - Candidate A 52% Candidate B 48%
State 2 - Candidate A 51% Candidate B 49%
State 3 - Candidate A 52% Candidate B 48%

In first past the post Candidate/Party A gets 3 votes and the 48+% are not represented;
In PR it will be Candidate A with 2 representatives, Candidate B with 1