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"Democracy for the rich"

Audie

Veteran Member
Links to Pew Research are "made up"? Now you're just trolling.


If I am trolling, I have foul hooked a alligator that's
thrashing about for something to bite. :D

But I am not, its just a cheap shot wide of the mark
to say that of me.

I made no comment on things from pew. I commented on the garbage
quoted here:

Anti-intellectualism is common in the US also. But facts and economic statistics that I have posted are far from "soft". This is a red herring and an attempt at deflection.

IF you are calling me anti intellectual that is made up.

Red herring and attempt at deflection are also made up.

Unless you can show the pew research on those?

Your sycophant there might be able to find the
research for you, if he wants to get involved.
 

Lyndon

"Peace is the answer" quote: GOD, 2014
Premium Member
If this is your attempt to make America great again, you've struck out!!
 

Evangelicalhumanist

"Truth" isn't a thing...
Premium Member
Yeah, the rich have more influence than anyone else, but who is keeping you from being rich in this system? :D Anyone motivated enough to do so in this system has more opportunity than in any other to achieve that. People throw a lot of blame on the rich for their problems, when they should be blaming themselves.
Actually, I think it is probably very likely that when you already have a significant monetary advantage over others, it becomes easier and easier to prevent others from catching up, even with the best effort.

I am a bit of a left-leaning capitalist. I see it rather like sports...compete, and compete like hell, but there are always the rules of the game, and the ref gets to call a foul when he sees one.

So what if the "ref" happens to be a governing body established by industry itself, by a professional association, or by government? My point is that I truly believe that unfettered capitalism, with no real and enforceable rules, will ultimately lead to its own demise. Try reading Jane Mayer's wonderful book "Dark Money," if you want some idea of how the already rich exercise an immense amount of influence over who can eventually get in the game, and over democratic processes, too.
 

Orbit

I'm a planet
If I am trolling, I have foul hooked a alligator that's
thrashing about for something to bite. :D

But I am not, its just a cheap shot wide of the mark
to say that of me.

I made no comment on things from pew. I commented on the garbage
quoted here:

Anti-intellectualism is common in the US also. But facts and economic statistics that I have posted are far from "soft". This is a red herring and an attempt at deflection.

IF you are calling me anti intellectual that is made up.

Red herring and attempt at deflection are also made up.

Unless you can show the pew research on those?

Your sycophant there might be able to find the
research for you, if he wants to get involved.

So I see you've moved to ad hominem. Who, pray tell is "my sycophant?"
 

Stevicus

Veteran Member
Staff member
Premium Member
so many people have so little is not because there isn't enough to go around.

Can you put numbers to that?

How much is "so little" and compared to
what, where, who?

Since others have already done this work (and it's common knowledge to anyone who is informed about current events), here is a link, although there are plenty of sites with similar information: Income Inequality - Inequality.org

Another article with some background: https://www.washingtonpost.com/news...-in-the-past-50-years/?utm_term=.56837e6a90b5

And, according to a report from Poor People's Campaign, page 8 (https://www.poorpeoplescampaign.org/wp-content/uploads/2017/12/PPC-Report-Draft-1.pdf):

Since the 1968 Poor People’s Campaign, the number of Americans in poverty has increased by 60% to 40.6 million. In 2016, white people made up the largest share of the poor (17.3 million), while the next two largest groups were African Americans (9.2 million) and Latinos (11.1 million). More than 95 million Americans (nearly 30 percent of the total population) are either in poverty or considered “low-income” (below twice the poverty line), using the Official Poverty Measure. That number rises to 43.5% (over 140 million people) when using the Supplemental Poverty Measure (SPM), which takes into account federal assistance resources as well as critical out-of-pocket expenses.

Depending on how you look at it (whether globally or just nationally), as well as comparing the U.S. relative position today versus where we were 50-75 years ago, then you might reach different conclusions. For example, the period from 1945 to 1970 was probably when America's economy peaked, when real wages and productivity continued to grow, and the standard of living also grew compared to what it was prior to WW2 and the Great Depression.

Since then, real wages have mostly stagnated (For most Americans, real wages have barely budged for decades). The disparity between the wealthiest 1% and the middle class has widened.

In the meantime, our national debt has skyrocketed, our trade deficit has grown exponentially, our nation's overall credit rating has diminished, our geopolitical position has weakened, and America's cultural, political, and economic influence on the world has decreased to a noticeable degree from where it was 50-75 years ago.

In other words, the economic system has not just caused individuals to struggle, but it's caused a significant decline in America overall. Say what you will about the plight of the poor in the U.S. (whether you think they're "whining" or "lazy" or "stupid" or whatever), but when an economic system causes the country as a whole to fail, then it's worth addressing on a more serious level.

The U.S. Census Bureau reported in September 2017 that real median household income was $59,039 in 2016, exceeding any previous year

The whining in the USA about having so little
seems a bit misplaced. A visit to divers third world
countries, telling all about how bad off Americans
are would lead to some skepticism, at the very least.

Yes, I alluded to this point above. But if you want to change the focus to looking at it globally, then the differences and disparities are even starker than when just looking at America. I don't think mentioning this does much to support the global capitalist system.

Besides, we're not comparing America to third world countries, as if it's something to cheer about that we're doing better than Guatemala.

We compare ourselves to other nations in the industrialized world, as well as comparing where we stand today (in relation to the rest of the world) with where we stood 50-75 years ago.

Just in case you might think I am
what you refer to here- There are many
"true believers" in the U.S. system -

My money is from where they actually do
capitalism-HK.

Yes, I've known quite a few "true believers" who point to HK. Who taught them capitalism? The British? They taught us, too.

Do you have constructive ideas about what
to do in the US, to make everyone richer?

Well, one way to start would be to restore and upgrade our industrial base. We should cut out all imports except for those commodities which can neither be grown nor mined in the United States. Everything else that can be manufactured here should be manufactured here. That would put quite a dent in the trade deficit and reduce the amount of money leaving the country.

Stronger labor unions and laws protecting workers would increase workers' bargaining power and lead to higher wages and a better standard of living for working people.

We might need to revamp our educational system, too. We're badly behind other countries in key areas like math and science (at least on average, although there are wide disparities between school districts). That's a topic for another thread, but suffice it to say, improvements in education would help improve our overall situation.

There are lots of things that we could be doing better than we are now.
 

Mindmaster

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
Actually, I think it is probably very likely that when you already have a significant monetary advantage over others, it becomes easier and easier to prevent others from catching up, even with the best effort.

Except that, if anything, through my efforts what I am mostly doing is HELPING people become more successful. Not just because it's the right thing to do, but because it is financially advantageous for me for my workers / clients to succeed. Between the referrals, more business, more leads on other workers to hire, and the other things it's always advantageous _for me_ to find a way to pay someone well. There is a lot of sunk cost even in the most apparently insignificant "employee" and because of that it's always to our advantage to keep you happy, if possible, rather than fire and re-hire maybe because someone else will work for a few bucks less. Most people aren't happy if they're not paid well for the job, receive decent benefits, or other goodies, and so on. The worst thing that can happen for me is I train you up, and you get poached by a competitor. Anyway, suffice to say, it's not the "well to do's" that are typically keeping people from success. If anything, we're always looking for reasons to make the employee more well to do -- but, we have to justify it. So, to shorten that up, your employer always has more money for you if you can prove that it's worth their while to give it to you. All you have to do is show them that if you are invested in, you will make a decent return for them. That's ultimately the only sticker to more pay -- no one's trying to "keep you down". :D I've paid people over twice what their market rate would be because I knew I was getting a 200% return on their work. If you can do that, the money is there, trust me.
 

Audie

Veteran Member
Since others have already done this work (and it's common knowledge to anyone who is informed about current events), here is a link, although there are plenty of sites with similar information: Income Inequality - Inequality.org

Another article with some background: https://www.washingtonpost.com/news...-in-the-past-50-years/?utm_term=.56837e6a90b5

And, according to a report from Poor People's Campaign, page 8 (https://www.poorpeoplescampaign.org/wp-content/uploads/2017/12/PPC-Report-Draft-1.pdf):



Depending on how you look at it (whether globally or just nationally), as well as comparing the U.S. relative position today versus where we were 50-75 years ago, then you might reach different conclusions. For example, the period from 1945 to 1970 was probably when America's economy peaked, when real wages and productivity continued to grow, and the standard of living also grew compared to what it was prior to WW2 and the Great Depression.

Since then, real wages have mostly stagnated (For most Americans, real wages have barely budged for decades). The disparity between the wealthiest 1% and the middle class has widened.

In the meantime, our national debt has skyrocketed, our trade deficit has grown exponentially, our nation's overall credit rating has diminished, our geopolitical position has weakened, and America's cultural, political, and economic influence on the world has decreased to a noticeable degree from where it was 50-75 years ago.

In other words, the economic system has not just caused individuals to struggle, but it's caused a significant decline in America overall. Say what you will about the plight of the poor in the U.S. (whether you think they're "whining" or "lazy" or "stupid" or whatever), but when an economic system causes the country as a whole to fail, then it's worth addressing on a more serious level.

Yes, I alluded to this point above. But if you want to change the focus to looking at it globally, then the differences and disparities are even starker than when just looking at America. I don't think mentioning this does much to support the global capitalist system.

Besides, we're not comparing America to third world countries, as if it's something to cheer about that we're doing better than Guatemala.

We compare ourselves to other nations in the industrialized world, as well as comparing where we stand today (in relation to the rest of the world) with where we stood 50-75 years ago.

Yes, I've known quite a few "true believers" who point to HK. Who taught them capitalism? The British? They taught us, too.

Well, one way to start would be to restore and upgrade our industrial base. We should cut out all imports except for those commodities which can neither be grown nor mined in the United States. Everything else that can be manufactured here should be manufactured here. That would put quite a dent in the trade deficit and reduce the amount of money leaving the country.

Stronger labor unions and laws protecting workers would increase workers' bargaining power and lead to higher wages and a better standard of living for working people.

We might need to revamp our educational system, too. We're badly behind other countries in key areas like math and science (at least on average, although there are wide disparities between school districts). That's a topic for another thread, but suffice it to say, improvements in education would help improve our overall situation.

There are lots of things that we could be doing better than we are now.

Thanks for a thorough post. Nothing there I'd
disagree with other than a possible characterization
of me as one who thinks the less well off are just
lazy etc. Sometimes it is so, sometimes it is not.

Matters such as national debt, SSOE (sorry state of
education :D) are rightly of great concern.

In general things do not seem to be getting better
in the US.
 

Shad

Veteran Member
Note also that "Asian" takes in Pakistan and Korea.

Not remotely the same peoples.

This point will be avoid lest it cause people to start evaluation cultures, religions, nations, etc as other factors start to collapse the demographic statistics to look at the individual.
 

Audie

Veteran Member
This point will be avoid lest it cause people to start evaluation cultures, religions, nations, etc as other factors start to collapse the demographic statistics to look at the individual.

Not sure what you mean but if it is relevant at
all, I am not into identity politics.
 

Stevicus

Veteran Member
Staff member
Premium Member
Thanks for a thorough post. Nothing there I'd
disagree with other than a possible characterization
of me as one who thinks the less well off are just
lazy etc. Sometimes it is so, sometimes it is not.

I agree, although I did not intend any mischaracterization. I was mainly referring to the "true believers," but if you're not one of them, then I stand corrected. The "true believers" seem to think that we live in a perfectly just world, where people are rich because they're hard-working, tireless geniuses, while poor people are that way because they're lazy, foolish, have no work ethic, no business sense. These are the arguments which are generally used by "true believers" to explain the disparities between rich and poor. It's also related to standard propaganda about America where they say "with a little luck and pluck, anyone can be a billionaire."

Matters such as national debt, SSOE (sorry state of
education :D) are rightly of great concern.

In general things do not seem to be getting better
in the US.

The trouble is that no one (and especially not the politicians or media) want to really delve into the reasons why things don't seem to be getting better. Most of the time, they're falling all over themselves desperately trying to convince everyone how great everything is, all but denying that there are any problems in this country at all.
 

UpperLimits

Active Member
Lenin: The State and Revolution


The State and Revolution

V. I. Lenin (1917)
In capitalist society, under the conditions most favorable to its development, we have more or less complete democracy in the democratic republic. But this democracy is always bound by the narrow framework of capitalist exploitation and consequently always remains, in reality, a democracy for the minority, only for the possessing classes, only for the rich.

Freedom in capitalist society always remains just about the same as it was in the ancient Greek republics: freedom for the slave-owners. The modern wage slaves, owing to the conditions of capitalist exploitation, are so much crushed by want and poverty that "democracy is nothing to them," "politics is nothing to them"; that, in the ordinary peaceful course of events, the majority of the population is debarred from participating in social and political life...

Democracy for an insignificant minority, democracy for the rich - that is the democracy of capitalist society.


Now, let me make something crystal clear. I regard Lenin as a demagogic rascal, motivated by a cult of materialist-teleological-utopian violence, who committed a slew of unforgivable atrocities against the very peasants he claimed to be fighting for against the Tsarist, and then liberal, Russian state. He was the midwife of totalitarian Stalinism and its mass murder of millions of defenceless people, not to mention its ethnocide and forced relocation of minority nationalities, as well as the gulag terror system that decimated so many lives from Lithuania to Kazakhstan. I'm also a Christian, so his savage persecution of the Orthodox Church and other religions in the Soviet Union earns my added scorn.

He thus rates very poorly in my categorisation of influential historical personages, given that his legacy has been almost entirely negative (in my estimation).

So, needless to say, I don't take what I'm about to say lightly or with the remotest hint of relish....but I think Lenin had a point. :eek: Due to his crimes, this is difficult to say. But I can't deny it. The man had a point. His solution was terrible but his analysis of the sickness wasn't very far off the mark and is now rather prescient, like that of his ideological forbear Karl Marx.

21st century democracy has increasingly proven inept at restraining corporate power and monopoly. Between 1980 and 2016, the top 1% acquired 28% of the aggregate increase in real incomes in Westernized democracies. The wage disparity between the average chief executive and and the average employee rose tenfold from 1970 to circa. 400. Multinational companies hoard wealth and influence governments around they world, harvesting personal data on private citizens and manipulating social media to further a corporatist agenda. They circumvent the legislation of national, elected legislatures by means of investor-state arbitration. They harm and degradation the environment. They evade tax.

In case someone says, "but wait, we've been here before - the gilded age in the 19th century! Laissez-faire Victorian Britain!", I would like to note that modern inequality is wedded to a shocking drop in social mobility not experienced even by in the 1800s, if measured by its sheer difference in scale. The U.S., which once boasted the most socially mobile lower middle class, is now the hardest Western society in which to climb the social ladder according to statistics. "If you want to be smart and highly energetic, the most important single step you could take is to choose the right parents," said Robert Frank. He's right, unfortunately.

If we don't do something major, I fear that we are on a downward trajectory brought about by ignorance of what it took to bring about the Western European "idea" in the first place, lack of feeling for society's losers and those left-behind by the rapacious onslaught of financial globalization (even though I support both it and free trade in principle), and crass complacency about our system's durability despite the solemn warning-shot of the 2009 banking crisis and the credit crunch.

The consequence of this generational - and I would add suicidal - misjudgement, is authoritarian populism and it's ever-rising appeal to young, socially dislocated men in particular. Jordan Peterson will be the first of many ideologues targeting impressionable young minds.

If we witness a whole generation of radicalised young men drawn to authoritarian nationalism (as we seem to be), their movement is our monster. Our system has created this distrust of "elites" (however nebulously defined). I would say that our liberal democratic system is as guilty as that of the aristocratic and mercantile one that preceded it, the policies of which - land enclosure and appropriation - fanned thievery and brigandage in sixteenth century England.

Are we really so far from the unequal, slave-holding, elitist democracy of classical Athens as we commonly assume? Lenin thought we weren't and with reluctance I'm starting to believe him. An extended franchise is not enough to provide real and effective equality.

Discuss.
I disagree completely with the Communist approach.

Capitalism is based on ideas. Have a good idea and voilà! You're the next "Bill Gates." It's just that simple.

The alternative is to sit around and gripe about how "nobody can get ahead in the system," and how "the rich should pay," and how everybody's due a bunch of free stuff. (Name your government program.) And we all know how popular those ideas are....

Get off your duff and do something. Good old creativity and ingenuity is what made the countries within North American strong. That, and not breaking the country down into a thousand petty warlords constantly fighting among each other for centuries on end. (Have you ever noticed that peace and prosperity tend to go hand in hand?)
 

Lyndon

"Peace is the answer" quote: GOD, 2014
Premium Member
Actually you're dead wrong, capitalism is you have a brilliant idea, and "voila" Bill Gates steals your idea.
 

UpperLimits

Active Member
Actually you're dead wrong, capitalism is you have a brilliant idea, and "voila" Bill Gates steals your idea.
And if somebody's stupid enough to give it to him for free, then boo hoo for them.

I suppose you probably think Gates is a thief too. Am I right?
 

Stevicus

Veteran Member
Staff member
Premium Member
And if somebody's stupid enough to give it to him for free, then boo hoo for them.

So, then you admit that capitalism is not really about creativity or ideas, but about being a con artist. That's why there are so many who say "the rich should pay," since they didn't properly earn their money. They just conned someone else out of theirs. If the rich don't like having to pay back what they've stolen, then boo hoo for them.
 
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