"Democracy for the rich"

[Nakosis]

It's even easier with a wife, tbh, if she works as well. If both are pulling 40-50k you're getting there even faster, like half the time. Living beyond your means and not saving is not being sensible as well. That means, yeah, you buy a smaller house than you can afford on paper because they're going to sell you one that takes 40% of your income and that's too damn much.

Kids do add expenses, but it kind of goes in phases -- they're cheap when they're small, get a bit more costly in the teen years. After the teen years, it's not your damn problem, lol. The most expensive thing in child rearing is diapers and baby formula, seriously... Anything you can do in that regard saves a ton of cash.

Anyway, if you're thinking about the money only here you're missing out. Kids are great.

Depends on the wife. Hopefully marrying someone that's better than you at handling money. Kids, just saying one should wait until they can afford the added expense.

 

[Orbit]

I've known some who for all appearances,
dedicated their lives to financial failure.
Can any system fix that?
Is the cost of fixing it worth taking on?

This is a specious argument, and a logical fallacy. I can point to many INDIVIDUALS who are #$%^ups, that doesn't erase the systemic difficulties that they are up against, with stagnant wages, no health care system, and an ever-growing cost of living.

 

[Revoltingest]

This is a specious argument, and a logical fallacy.

It's neither....just observations.
When people spend every extra dollar they earn on frivolity
(gambling, drink, tobacco, tatoos, fast food, etc, etc), they
are doomed to never getting ahead. Such people have the
power to do better, but they don't choose that path. And they
are numerous. I know them...I've hired them...I've rented to
them...I've tried to help some.

I can point to many INDIVIDUALS who are #$%^ups, that doesn't erase the systemic difficulties that they are up against, with stagnant wages, no health care system, and an ever-growing cost of living.

I'm not arguing against the existence of systemic disadvantages
at all. Only that they can become overcome by those with
ambition & ability....& by avoiding obviously bad decisions.

 

[Audie]

You can work very hard in America and still not be able to pay your rent.

Oh, absolutely! I am not stupid.
Some of the hardest work there is is the lowest paid.

Which rule says you must choose or stay with that
low paid work, or live in a place you cannot afford?

Mark Twain wrote about a silver mine town in
Nevada that went bust, 1880 or something.

He remarked that while the other laid off miners were
moaning about how hard up they were, the Chinese
were doing laundry, cooking, even melting solder from
cans at the dump, anything that kept them busy and
brought in a little money.

Not to just toot the Chinese horn, its who I am
familiar with. Japanese have the same ethic,
Koreans. Others.

If a person or group does not have the ethic.
does not tell themselves the right story, they
will fail. If they do, they will succeed. Not
today perhaps-see Chinaman's chance, again-
but give them time.

For an opposite example, look at your native
Americans. Sheesh, they are a good looking people,
smart and capable as anyone!

But they are hearing the wrong story, and they are
mired in drugs and poverty.

What story have you been telling yourself?

 

[Audie]

This is a specious argument, and a logical fallacy. I can point to many INDIVIDUALS who are #$%^ups, that doesn't erase the systemic difficulties that they are up against, with stagnant wages, no health care system, and an ever-growing cost of living.

Ok No need to answer the "what story" question.
How has it been working out for you?

 

[Orbit]

It's neither....just observations.
When people spend every extra dollar they earn on frivolity
(gambling, drink, tobacco, tatoos, fast food, etc, etc), they
are doomed to never getting ahead. Such people have the
power to do better, but they don't choose that path. And they
are numerous.

I'm not arguing against systemic disadvantages at all.
Only that they can become overcome by those with
ambition & ability.

Sadly, that is the case only for a few individuals who combine hard work with luck, and usually invisible support. Taken as a whole, this generation will be less upwardly mobile than their parents. Not because they are wasting their money on Cheetos and beer, but because of macro forces like the restructuring of the economy, stagnant wages, automation, outsourcing, high cost of education, rent, and health care.

 

[Orbit]

Ok No need to answer the "what story" question.
How has it been working out for you?

I'm a sociologist. I study this stuff for a living. I know how easy it is to assume that individuals are in complete control of their lives, but the fact is that they are not. Social forces like economic stagnation are bigger than any one individual, and form the context for their actions and opportunities (or lack of them).

 

[Audie]

Happened to my sister in law. Against my advice she bought a house, nice car, threw some expensive parties, she and her husband quit their jobs. Lost it all.

Ended up losing the husband too.

Sometimes people don't want to listen, feel they know better. I don't know if that makes them fools but maybe in need of a bit more humility to at least realize they are probably in over their heads.

It is common as dirt , it is what usually happens.

People do not value what they do not earn, at least,
usually.

I have a relative who blows through about a half
million every year, and what does she have to show for it?

 

[Revoltingest]

Sadly, that is the case only for a few individuals who combine hard work with luck, and usually invisible support. Taken as a whole, this generation will be less upwardly mobile than their parents. Not because they are wasting their money on Cheetos and beer, but because of macro forces like the restructuring of the economy, stagnant wages, automation, outsourcing, high cost of education, rent, and health care.

We must agree to disagree.
I give individual initiative & talent great weight.

 

[metis]

It's truly a shame that "the system" with some is more important than the people that may be getting hurt under "the system", much as with the NAZI's and the Stalinists and Maoists, for examples, who also had "the system" to be pushed and elevated over the people.

 

[Audie]

I'm a sociologist. I study this stuff for a living. I know how easy it is to assume that individuals are in complete control of their lives, but the fact is that they are not. Social forces like economic stagnation are bigger than any one individual, and form the context for their actions and opportunities (or lack of them).

and perhaps you know how easy it is for people to
just think they are but straws in the wind, no chance
to control their destiny.

How would you offer to explain the relative
success of Asian Americans in the face
of the same problems everyone
else experienced, except made the worse for
coming in as a mistreated minority?

 

[Revoltingest]

I'm a sociologist. I study this stuff for a living.

I'm in business.
I deal with people's successes & failures for a living.

Do sociologists usually study successful people or
unsuccessful people?

I know how easy it is to assume that individuals are in complete control of their lives, but the fact is that they are not. Social forces like economic stagnation are bigger than any one individual, and form the context for their actions and opportunities (or lack of them).

I think the fundamental disagreement here shouldn't be.
No one says that we have "complete control" over our lives.

We do have a great deal of control....usually.
Sure, sure...sometimes life deals us insurmountable problems,
eg, debilitating illness, but that doesn't happen to most of us.
We who can choose to work harder, to live frugally, to better
ourselves, really do benefit from these choices.

 

[Audie]

We must agree to disagree.
I give individual initiative & talent great weight.

Ya think maybe a sociologist will be inclinated to
see academics and big social forces, and a guy
with practical experience to see something else?

 

[Revoltingest]

Ya think maybe a sociologist will be inclinated to
see academics and big social forces, and a guy
with practical experience to see something else?

Yes, I do think perspective affects our outlooks.
And the latter can lead to reinforcing the former.

 

[Orbit]

and perhaps you know how easy it is for people to
just think they are but straws in the wind, no chance
to control their destiny.

How would you offer to explain the relative
success of Asian Americans in the face
of the same problems everyone
else experienced, except made the worse for
coming in as a mistreated minority?

Income Inequality in the U.S. Is Rising Most Rapidly Among Asians

 

[Nakosis]

and perhaps you know how easy it is for people to
just think they are but straws in the wind, no chance
to control their destiny.

How would you offer to explain the relative
success of Asian Americans in the face
of the same problems everyone
else experienced, except made the worse for
coming in as a mistreated minority?

Parents and culture. Not going to say it true of all Asians but they, in my experience, seem more willing to go out of their way to help other folks.

 

[Orbit]

Yes, I do think perspective affects our outlooks.
And the latter can lead to reinforcing the former.

I have practical experience, and I read plenty of studies on this topic. One does not preclude the other. I'm simply saying that it's not as easy as you think it is; and that you can work very hard and still be unable to get ahead.

 

[Audie]

Income Inequality in the U.S. Is Rising Most Rapidly Among Asians

As if your link is in any way responsive to what I said.

But ir it is all you can say, well-

The rich are being more and more successful, which also
makes for inequality with the ones who are but middle class.

Give the immigrants a generation or two.

Note also that "Asian" takes in Pakistan and Korea.

Not remotely the same peoples.

 

[Orbit]

This is another example: when the tide is going out (economically) most boats lower.

The American Middle Class Is Losing Ground

 

[Revoltingest]

I have practical experience, and I read plenty of studies on this topic. One does not preclude the other. I'm simply saying that it's not as easy as you think it is; and that you can work very hard and still be unable to get ahead.

I never said it's easy. Nor is success guaranteed.
And while for some hard work doesn't result in success,
this possibility doesn't define existence for most people.

I hear too much defeatism from too many sources.
It's a self fulfilling attitude.
Bad decisions & practices can be counselled against.
Success can be made achievable for many. This is
far more useful than waiting for government to step
in to increase funding for support programs.