Deism appears to be true and Prophets and Messengers not, why?

[Link]

Hi! I know what you mean. I’ve struggled with how God allows calamities to happen. But, I think we are uncomfortable with the idea that a loving God knows that there are disasters, but seems to “not care.” In my estimation, He does care but how He handles disasters differs from maybe how I would like him to? Should he sweep in and rescue us from every bad decision we are about to make? Will that make Him God? If I never suffer, will that make Him God? What expectations do I have that if God “meets,” will then make Him God...to me? The God of the Bible at times, doesn’t please me. He offends me. But that becomes my problem, and if it keeps me from belief, that is my issue. If I only believe that God could be meaningful as long as my life becomes free of struggle, then God is little more than a conjuring of my imagination.

I think He is acutely aware, and He invites us to examine why that offends us.

Beautiful wise words.

 

[InvestigateTruth]

I don't know what you mean. His conclusion is we are too messed up, God wouldn't mess up this bad if he tried to guide us. Seems legit but it's over simplification. My thread was sort of a response to that.

I don't make that conclusion that God wouldn't mess up this bad if he tried to guide us. Look, a million years ago, we were like monkeys. We continued to be like beasts of jungle for thousands of years, but God trained us, and we became human civilizations, as we are now. This is God's creation. It is a gradual, and slow process. The purpose of God according to religion is not just to make a perfect world right away. This world is a temporary place for all of us. We will all die and leave soon. His purpose of bringing us in this world, is to test us. The world is like a school. We learn many lessons here. Then when we pass to the next life, we take what we learned from this world. So, God is very successful to me, in doing what He intended.

 

[InvestigateTruth]

Prophets and Messengers would come with clear proofs. Of their evidence were real life eventful miracles that proved God trusted them with immense power and immense knowledge others didn't have.

Now if the Guides are followed, there is no reason, for these miracles to come to an end. Guidance if followed by humans, would prove to be fruitful.

The reason why Deism or even Atheism seems more likely than religion in these dark times, is quite simple. We humans have made a mockery of God's guidance and sabotaged his Messengers and abandoned his guiding kings on earth.

Over time, divisions appear normal. No unity but further division and hate over disputes over how to refer to God and the founder(s) of the religion, becomes detrimental for humans.

The opposite of guidance but rather, the book is misinterpreted as in the case in Islam, and the Sunnah filled with fabrications that no one in their sane mind can believe a Prophet of God would teach but instead we inherited insanity generation to generation believing in lies that are obvious evils attributed to the Prophet.

In this case, the reason why miracles are not in the open, the reason why there isn't present guide in the open to show miracles, but now is hidden and if miracles to be shown, to be shown not in public...

The reason why miracles are not in the open is quite simple. We sabotaged the Captains that navigate by the name of God and are misguided almost beyond repair.

Religion in this case, seems, to be a catastrophe. It doesn't matter if Mohammad or Jesus or Moses or Abraham are all true guidance, it appears that, guidance has failed.

In other words, Shiites can talk about the need of divinely appointed kings (Imam Ali, to Imam Mahdi), prove it all they want, it looks more like the powers that be, have funneled it and fabrication of Quran can be even seen in light of that, to funnel our efforts into waiting for the Mahdi.... and it can appear religion was just a power game by elite sorcerers for example.

To prove religion in these dark times is tougher then ever, because, all the purpose of Messengers you can talk about, you have to justify why it didn't happen.

The purpose of guidance is to guide, yet it didn't. The purpose of kings was to established God's Authority and light, yet there were killed and murdered and their followers oppressed.

In other words, because of our insolence, or lack of effort to help one another, because of our lack of response, we even make it appear that there was never guidance from God, and if arguments for religion against Deism are sound, it appears Atheism is more true in this case.

The epidemic of insincerity towards God and his guides, is ever so present. We are in dark times.

Miracles in holy books were talked about in a way, they were here to stay. The fact we don't have them, is because something is preventing God from sending them. That is his mercy, so that he doesn't destroy us like Noah's people, he is delaying it.

But if believers are oppressed, and the oppressors are not fought or stopped, God will have to bring the Mahdi in a worst case scenario.

The Mahdi, Jesus, Elijah, all meant to come back on good terms. But now they will be coming back on worst terms, and I fear the destruction of great portion of the world and cities... "and not a city (that disbelieves) except we will destroy it or punish it a severe punishment before the day of judgment...."...…

We think we are immune to God's wrath despite his ever warnings of destroyed cities or nations of the past.

The Mahdi and Jesus and Elijah return are supposed to be good news. But it also a warning, and it could be with little good news and mostly warning bad news.

The warning aspect - we walked the path of his warnings. I fear, if the oppressors are not stopped, you will force God's hand.

The oppressors must be stopped and not supported nor silently watched, lest, we face God's wrath. Even the Mahdi which was suppose to the greatest mercy to humanity, will become, like Noah who was originally meant to be a mercy and grace from God, a means of God's wrath and destruction.

I rambled a lot. I know. Sorry. But I wanted to speak and ramble through my heart here. Less intellectual, more just frustrated rambling of our situation.

In light of all you say, it appears contredictory to me. You seem to say, God has been sending messengers to guide humanity. But humanity was not guided. Did not God know before sending prophets, humanity would not be guided? Is He not knowed of all things of future? So, why He did what He knew would fail? And if, He knew it is needed to send prophets, why He stopped it at Muhammad?

 

[Link]

But humanity was not guided. Did not God know before sending prophets, humanity would not be guided?

Future that is written by free-will of both God and humans, cannot be known to anyone including God. Of course, God knows possibilities, and has plans for all of them, and so is ready to react with if statements that he entrusted in his book to his authorities, and who in turn the Angels act upon, and then believers from human and Jinn can also participate to be part of the plan of God.

The one who God constantly plans through is Imam Mahdi. Still alive and will return.

He is a Messenger (one who to deliver a clear message from God, revive the truth, etc) but not a Nabi (receiving revelation from God on behalf of humans).

While there needs to be another Messenger to come, the revelation to humanity doesn't need to be replaced. In fact, a lot of Quranic wisdom, and flow, is to prepare the world for the Mahdi and so that he can argue by it, instead of bringing a new revelation, and we know humans have a hard time accepting new revelations.

He will bring about wonders of Quran to another level. Just think about the Quran of Ali. He can put all the dates and times each verse was revealed in app, and we can see how Quran was dynamically built over time. And he can put the explanation of the Prophet dynamically (with date) and so that would be amazing.

It might make us see Quran at much higher level and bring this way, the legacy of the family of Taha and Yaseen, to such a level, everyone will recognize the treasures we had.

Not only that, but Jesus will pray behind the Mahdi to reinforce him. Elijah will also come back. So will Idris. So will the rest of the Baqeen talked about in Quran (those who remain in Suratal Saffat).

 

[InvestigateTruth]

Future that is written by free-will of both God and humans, cannot be known to anyone including God.

Does Quran agree with what you say? Does Muhammad's teaching agree with your statement bolded? That tells me, you are getting your ideas partially from religion, and partially your own thoughts, thus making a new religion for yourself.

 

[Link]

Does Quran agree with what you say?

Yes, it does, as far as this issue is it's linguistically clear.

 

[Link]

That tells me, you are getting your ideas partially from religion, and partially your own thoughts, thus making a new religion for yourself.

My religion is love. I don't claim to represent Mohammad or Quran nor be from making mistakes regarding them. Obviously, I try my best to only attribute God what I know to be true.

 

[ManSinha]

@Deidre @oldbadger

I have posted this before - but the apparent dissonance between a supposedly loving god and the reality can be partly perceived (? understood ? resolved) thru the dialog between two characters in an Indian mythological TV show

Two of perhaps arguably the most powerful (Indian) mythological beings - Lord Shiva and the monkey god Hanuman are having a discourse (we are purposely leaving Lord Krishna out of the discussion)

As you may know Lord Shiva is regarded by many as the very embodiment of the Universe in as the entire Universe is contained in him
Hanuman is supposedly immortal and supposed to be imbued with a great variety of powers - I have likened him to the Martian Manhunter character from DC comics

Hanuman - given his longevity - sees society deteriorating on a spiritual level. Distressed, he comes right out and asks Lord Shiva why he (Shiva) allows evil to exist in the world

The following has some Hindi phrases but I shall translate

Lord Shiva with a benevolent smile on his face says to Hanuman "Yeh vidhi ka vidhaan hai - is me hastakshep nahin hota"

Ergo - "This is the way of the world - There is no interfering with it"

So as I have said before - my belief is that the divine simply is - period (per my all too poor understanding)

Seen that way - it is somewhat simpler to reconcile what is happening and has happened through the ages - with the presence of the divine

FWIW - one seeker's viewpoint

 

[InvestigateTruth]

Future that is written by free-will of both God and humans, cannot be known to anyone including God. .

Does Quran agree with what you say? Does Muhammad's teaching agree with your statement bolded? That tells me, you are getting your ideas partially from religion, and partially your own thoughts, thus making a new religion for yourself.

Yes, it does, as far as this issue is it's linguistically clear.

Where does that say that in Quran? All I know, Quran says Allah is All-knowing. There is nothing that scapes His knowledge. Even a leave does not fall without His knowledge. These are just some of the verses about knowledge of Allah:


Say, "Would you acquaint Allah with your religion while Allah knows whatever is in the heavens and whatever is on the earth, and Allah is Knowing of all things?"46:16

"The Unbelievers say, "Never to us will come the Hour": Say, "Nay! but most surely, by my Lord, it will come upon you;- by Him Who knows the unseen,- from Whom is not hidden the least little atom in the heavens or on earth: Nor is there anythin g less than that, or greater, but is in the Record Perspicuous" 34:3


Say, "Whether you conceal what is in your breasts or reveal it, Allah knows it. And He knows that which is in the heavens and that which is on the earth. And Allah is over all things competent. 3:29

"And with Him are the keys of the unseen; none knows them except Him. And He knows what is on the land and in the sea. Not a leaf falls but that He knows it. And no grain is there within the darknesses of the earth and no moist or dry [thing] but that it is [written] in a clear record." 6:59

They ask you, [O Muhammad], about the Hour: when is its arrival? Say, "Its knowledge is only with my Lord. None will reveal its time except Him. It lays heavily upon the heavens and the earth. It will not come upon you except unexpectedly." They ask you as if you are familiar with it. Say, "Its knowledge is only with Allah , but most of the people do not know." 7:187

 

[Link]

Here is one verse:


Sahih International: Or do you think that you will enter Paradise while Allah has not yet made evident those of you who fight in His cause and made evident those who are steadfast?

Pickthall: Or deemed ye that ye would enter paradise while yet Allah knoweth not those of you who really strive, nor knoweth those (of you) who are steadfast?

Yusuf Ali: Did ye think that ye would enter Heaven without Allah testing those of you who fought hard (In His Cause) and remained steadfast?

Shakir: Do you think that you will enter the garden while Allah has not yet known those who strive hard from among you, and (He has not) known the patient.

Muhammad Sarwar: Did you think that you could go to Paradise before God knew which of you fought for His cause and which of you bore patience?

Mohsin Khan: Do you think that you will enter Paradise before Allah tests those of you who fought (in His Cause) and (also) tests those who are As-Sabirin (the patient ones, etc.)?

Arberry: Or did you suppose you should enter Paradise without God know who of you have struggled and who are patient?



Another:

أَحَسِبَ النَّاسُ أَنْ يُتْرَكُوا أَنْ يَقُولُوا آمَنَّا وَهُمْ لَا يُفْتَنُونَ {2}
[Shakir 29:2] Do men think that they will be left alone on saying, We believe, and not be tried?
وَلَقَدْ فَتَنَّا الَّذِينَ مِنْ قَبْلِهِمْ ۖ فَلَيَعْلَمَنَّ اللَّهُ الَّذِينَ صَدَقُوا وَلَيَعْلَمَنَّ الْكَاذِبِينَ {3}
[Shakir 29:3] And certainly We tried those before them, so Allah will certainly know those who are true and He will certainly know the liars.


And:

وَلَقَدْ أَرْسَلْنَا رُسُلًا مِنْ قَبْلِكَ وَجَعَلْنَا لَهُمْ أَزْوَاجًا وَذُرِّيَّةً ۚ وَمَا كَانَ لِرَسُولٍ أَنْ يَأْتِيَ بِآيَةٍ إِلَّا بِإِذْنِ اللَّهِ ۗ لِكُلِّ أَجَلٍ كِتَابٌ {38}
[Shakir 13:38] And certainly We sent messengers before you and gave them wives and children, and it is not in (the power of) an messenger to bring a sign except by Allah's permission; for every term there is an appointment.
يَمْحُو اللَّهُ مَا يَشَاءُ وَيُثْبِتُ ۖ وَعِنْدَهُ أُمُّ الْكِتَابِ {39}
[Shakir 13:39] Allah makes to pass away and establishes what He pleases, and with Him is the basis of the Book.

The verse 13:39 it should says Allah erases away what he wishes.....

Basically, there is nothing written in stone, he can erase it or establish it.

 

[Samael_Khan]

Prophets and Messengers would come with clear proofs. Of their evidence were real life eventful miracles that proved God trusted them with immense power and immense knowledge others didn't have.

Now if the Guides are followed, there is no reason, for these miracles to come to an end. Guidance if followed by humans, would prove to be fruitful.

The reason why Deism or even Atheism seems more likely than religion in these dark times, is quite simple. We humans have made a mockery of God's guidance and sabotaged his Messengers and abandoned his guiding kings on earth.

Over time, divisions appear normal. No unity but further division and hate over disputes over how to refer to God and the founder(s) of the religion, becomes detrimental for humans.

The opposite of guidance but rather, the book is misinterpreted as in the case in Islam, and the Sunnah filled with fabrications that no one in their sane mind can believe a Prophet of God would teach but instead we inherited insanity generation to generation believing in lies that are obvious evils attributed to the Prophet.

In this case, the reason why miracles are not in the open, the reason why there isn't present guide in the open to show miracles, but now is hidden and if miracles to be shown, to be shown not in public...

The reason why miracles are not in the open is quite simple. We sabotaged the Captains that navigate by the name of God and are misguided almost beyond repair.

Religion in this case, seems, to be a catastrophe. It doesn't matter if Mohammad or Jesus or Moses or Abraham are all true guidance, it appears that, guidance has failed.

In other words, Shiites can talk about the need of divinely appointed kings (Imam Ali, to Imam Mahdi), prove it all they want, it looks more like the powers that be, have funneled it and fabrication of Quran can be even seen in light of that, to funnel our efforts into waiting for the Mahdi.... and it can appear religion was just a power game by elite sorcerers for example.

To prove religion in these dark times is tougher then ever, because, all the purpose of Messengers you can talk about, you have to justify why it didn't happen.

The purpose of guidance is to guide, yet it didn't. The purpose of kings was to established God's Authority and light, yet there were killed and murdered and their followers oppressed.

In other words, because of our insolence, or lack of effort to help one another, because of our lack of response, we even make it appear that there was never guidance from God, and if arguments for religion against Deism are sound, it appears Atheism is more true in this case.

The epidemic of insincerity towards God and his guides, is ever so present. We are in dark times.

Miracles in holy books were talked about in a way, they were here to stay. The fact we don't have them, is because something is preventing God from sending them. That is his mercy, so that he doesn't destroy us like Noah's people, he is delaying it.

But if believers are oppressed, and the oppressors are not fought or stopped, God will have to bring the Mahdi in a worst case scenario.

The Mahdi, Jesus, Elijah, all meant to come back on good terms. But now they will be coming back on worst terms, and I fear the destruction of great portion of the world and cities... "and not a city (that disbelieves) except we will destroy it or punish it a severe punishment before the day of judgment...."...…

We think we are immune to God's wrath despite his ever warnings of destroyed cities or nations of the past.

The Mahdi and Jesus and Elijah return are supposed to be good news. But it also a warning, and it could be with little good news and mostly warning bad news.

The warning aspect - we walked the path of his warnings. I fear, if the oppressors are not stopped, you will force God's hand.

The oppressors must be stopped and not supported nor silently watched, lest, we face God's wrath. Even the Mahdi which was suppose to the greatest mercy to humanity, will become, like Noah who was originally meant to be a mercy and grace from God, a means of God's wrath and destruction.

I rambled a lot. I know. Sorry. But I wanted to speak and ramble through my heart here. Less intellectual, more just frustrated rambling of our situation.

This is a nice, thoughtful and relevent OP.

In my subjective mind, I think that if a God does exist, then he is mostly deistic, because he gave us reason, and it is pointless giving us reason if he doesn't want us to use it to sort out our own problems if he gives us specific books to follow which limit our reasoning abilities because we have to depend on them so much.

 

[oldbadger]

I was a Deist for five years. I made arguments for it, some of them stronger then others, but can refute them all.

In which case you should not be a Deist!
Deism is common sense to Deists, I expect.

 

[oldbadger]

Hi! I know what you mean. I’ve struggled with how God allows calamities to happen. But, I think we are uncomfortable with the idea that a loving God knows that there are disasters, but also cares. In my estimation, He does care but how He handles disasters differs from maybe how I would like him to? Should he sweep in and rescue us from every bad decision we are about to make? Will that make Him God? If I never suffer, will that make Him God? What expectations do I have that if God “meets,” will then make Him God...to me? The God of the Bible at times, doesn’t please me. He offends me. He challenges my pride. But that becomes my problem, and if it keeps me from belief, that is my issue. If I only believe that God could be meaningful as long as my life becomes free of struggle, then God is little more than a conjuring of my imagination.

I think He is acutely aware, and He invites us to examine why that offends us.

I can acknowledge your belief in a caring God, but I cannot belief in such a God.

Why did God wait 13.7 billion years before evolving us? Or do you dismiss evolution?

The vastness of this and any neighbouring Universes with trillions and trillions of suns and planets is enough for me to bow my head to Mother Nature as the emissary and ruler around here, and that makes sense to me.

 

[oldbadger]

@Deidre @oldbadger

I have posted this before - but the apparent dissonance between a supposedly loving god and the reality can be partly perceived (? understood ? resolved) thru the dialog between two characters in an Indian mythological TV show

Two of perhaps arguably the most powerful (Indian) mythological beings - Lord Shiva and the monkey god Hanuman are having a discourse (we are purposely leaving Lord Krishna out of the discussion)

As you may know Lord Shiva is regarded by many as the very embodiment of the Universe in as the entire Universe is contained in him
Hanuman is supposedly immortal and supposed to be imbued with a great variety of powers - I have likened him to the Martian Manhunter character from DC comics

Hanuman - given his longevity - sees society deteriorating on a spiritual level. Distressed, he comes right out and asks Lord Shiva why he (Shiva) allows evil to exist in the world

The following has some Hindi phrases but I shall translate

Lord Shiva with a benevolent smile on his face says to Hanuman "Yeh vidhi ka vidhaan hai - is me hastakshep nahin hota"

Ergo - "This is the way of the world - There is no interfering with it"

So as I have said before - my belief is that the divine simply is - period (per my all too poor understanding)

Seen that way - it is somewhat simpler to reconcile what is happening and has happened through the ages - with the presence of the divine

FWIW - one seeker's viewpoint

Thankyou!
As a Deist I could just about perceive Shiva as the vastness of the Universes and Hanuman as Nature. If I may be allowed such a simplistic view.

Nature formed me and Nature will tear me apart, for sure. But if I have time at the end will thank Nature for giving me this wonderful experience, and in any case, nothing that is a part of me can be destroyed, but will simply become a part of something else.

So be it.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Prophets and Messengers would come with clear proofs. Of their evidence were real life eventful miracles that proved God trusted them with immense power and immense knowledge others didn't have.

Now if the Guides are followed, there is no reason, for these miracles to come to an end. Guidance if followed by humans, would prove to be fruitful.

The reason why Deism or even Atheism seems more likely than religion in these dark times, is quite simple. We humans have made a mockery of God's guidance and sabotaged his Messengers and abandoned his guiding kings on earth.

Over time, divisions appear normal. No unity but further division and hate over disputes over how to refer to God and the founder(s) of the religion, becomes detrimental for humans.

The opposite of guidance but rather, the book is misinterpreted as in the case in Islam, and the Sunnah filled with fabrications that no one in their sane mind can believe a Prophet of God would teach but instead we inherited insanity generation to generation believing in lies that are obvious evils attributed to the Prophet.

In this case, the reason why miracles are not in the open, the reason why there isn't present guide in the open to show miracles, but now is hidden and if miracles to be shown, to be shown not in public...

The reason why miracles are not in the open is quite simple. We sabotaged the Captains that navigate by the name of God and are misguided almost beyond repair.

Religion in this case, seems, to be a catastrophe. It doesn't matter if Mohammad or Jesus or Moses or Abraham are all true guidance, it appears that, guidance has failed.

In other words, Shiites can talk about the need of divinely appointed kings (Imam Ali, to Imam Mahdi), prove it all they want, it looks more like the powers that be, have funneled it and fabrication of Quran can be even seen in light of that, to funnel our efforts into waiting for the Mahdi.... and it can appear religion was just a power game by elite sorcerers for example.

To prove religion in these dark times is tougher then ever, because, all the purpose of Messengers you can talk about, you have to justify why it didn't happen.

The purpose of guidance is to guide, yet it didn't. The purpose of kings was to established God's Authority and light, yet there were killed and murdered and their followers oppressed.

In other words, because of our insolence, or lack of effort to help one another, because of our lack of response, we even make it appear that there was never guidance from God, and if arguments for religion against Deism are sound, it appears Atheism is more true in this case.

The epidemic of insincerity towards God and his guides, is ever so present. We are in dark times.

Miracles in holy books were talked about in a way, they were here to stay. The fact we don't have them, is because something is preventing God from sending them. That is his mercy, so that he doesn't destroy us like Noah's people, he is delaying it.

But if believers are oppressed, and the oppressors are not fought or stopped, God will have to bring the Mahdi in a worst case scenario.

The Mahdi, Jesus, Elijah, all meant to come back on good terms. But now they will be coming back on worst terms, and I fear the destruction of great portion of the world and cities... "and not a city (that disbelieves) except we will destroy it or punish it a severe punishment before the day of judgment...."...…

We think we are immune to God's wrath despite his ever warnings of destroyed cities or nations of the past.

The Mahdi and Jesus and Elijah return are supposed to be good news. But it also a warning, and it could be with little good news and mostly warning bad news.

The warning aspect - we walked the path of his warnings. I fear, if the oppressors are not stopped, you will force God's hand.

The oppressors must be stopped and not supported nor silently watched, lest, we face God's wrath. Even the Mahdi which was suppose to the greatest mercy to humanity, will become, like Noah who was originally meant to be a mercy and grace from God, a means of God's wrath and destruction.

I rambled a lot. I know. Sorry. But I wanted to speak and ramble through my heart here. Less intellectual, more just frustrated rambling of our situation.

May I suggest an alternate approach?

When people find that their beliefs aren't supported by the evidence, some people take this as a sign that they should reflect on whether their beliefs are actually true.

The approach you've taken - i.e. to use the disconnect between your beliefs and the evidence as weird fodder for an elaborate revenge fantasy - isn't actually that popular an approach.

 

[ManSinha]

As a Deist I could just about perceive Shiva as the vastness of the Universes

And you would not be wrong in doing so - Lord Krishna says the following in the Gita (if you are wondering why this is coming from Krishna - many consider the two to be emanations of the same divine - placed in forms that humans can appreciate )

Gita 7:6

etad-yonīni bhūtāni sarvāṇītyupadhāraya
ahaṁ kṛitsnasya jagataḥ prabhavaḥ pralayas tathā

Know that all living beings are manifested by these two energies of mine. I am the source of the entire creation, and into me it again dissolves.

Gita 7:7

mattaḥ parataraṁ nānyat kiñchid asti dhanañjaya
mayi sarvam idaṁ protaṁ sūtre maṇi-gaṇā iva

There is nothing higher than myself, O Arjun. Everything rests in me, as beads strung on a thread.

 

[loverofhumanity]

Where does that say that in Quran? All I know, Quran says Allah is All-knowing. There is nothing that scapes His knowledge. Even a leave does not fall without His knowledge. These are just some of the verses about knowledge of Allah:


Say, "Would you acquaint Allah with your religion while Allah knows whatever is in the heavens and whatever is on the earth, and Allah is Knowing of all things?"46:16

"The Unbelievers say, "Never to us will come the Hour": Say, "Nay! but most surely, by my Lord, it will come upon you;- by Him Who knows the unseen,- from Whom is not hidden the least little atom in the heavens or on earth: Nor is there anythin g less than that, or greater, but is in the Record Perspicuous" 34:3


Say, "Whether you conceal what is in your breasts or reveal it, Allah knows it. And He knows that which is in the heavens and that which is on the earth. And Allah is over all things competent. 3:29

"And with Him are the keys of the unseen; none knows them except Him. And He knows what is on the land and in the sea. Not a leaf falls but that He knows it. And no grain is there within the darknesses of the earth and no moist or dry [thing] but that it is [written] in a clear record." 6:59

They ask you, [O Muhammad], about the Hour: when is its arrival? Say, "Its knowledge is only with my Lord. None will reveal its time except Him. It lays heavily upon the heavens and the earth. It will not come upon you except unexpectedly." They ask you as if you are familiar with it. Say, "Its knowledge is only with Allah , but most of the people do not know." 7:187

So, so, so beautiful Words of God. A blessing to have come upon them and read them. Thank you.

 

[Jos]

I consider Deism the least possible choice.

Deism is less possible than atheism? Really?

 

[shunyadragon]

Deism is less possible than atheism? Really?

Ontological Naturalism ie atheism is supported by consistent predicable Methodological Naturalism, which has no objective verifiable evidence for any other alternative. It requires no other philosophical assumption to justify this belief. Deism on the otherhand is only based on the philosophical/theological assumptions that there exists a God that is not involved in human affairs, nor the nature and events of the physical existence without any supporting objective verifiable evidence.

Of course there is objective evidence to conclude that there is a lack of Gods of any sort, but based on the objective evidence the Ontological Naturalist proposes there is no reason to believe. .

 

[Jos]

I don't make that conclusion that God wouldn't mess up this bad if he tried to guide us. Look, a million years ago, we were like monkeys. We continued to be like beasts of jungle for thousands of years, but God trained us, and we became human civilizations, as we are now. This is God's creation. It is a gradual, and slow process. The purpose of God according to religion is not just to make a perfect world right away. This world is a temporary place for all of us. We will all die and leave soon. His purpose of bringing us in this world, is to test us. The world is like a school. We learn many lessons here. Then when we pass to the next life, we take what we learned from this world. So, God is very successful to me, in doing what He intended.

OK but what's the point in growing and learning if you're not gonna use those lessons in the afterlife since everything will be perfect by then? I'd understand putting humans through suffering so that the lessons they learn will be helpful in an imperfect afterlife where things are even tougher and where they can use the strength they accrued in this life to help them but everything will be perfect in the afterlife and scripture even states that we'll forget what happened to us in this life so the whole thing makes no sense