1. Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:
    • Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
    • Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
    • Access to private conversations with other members.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!

Featured Deism appears to be true and Prophets and Messengers not, why?

Discussion in 'General Religious Debates' started by Link, May 23, 2020.

  1. Link

    Link Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    May 10, 2019
    Messages:
    1,522
    Ratings:
    +450
    Religion:
    Twelver seeker
    Prophets and Messengers would come with clear proofs. Of their evidence were real life eventful miracles that proved God trusted them with immense power and immense knowledge others didn't have.

    Now if the Guides are followed, there is no reason, for these miracles to come to an end. Guidance if followed by humans, would prove to be fruitful.

    The reason why Deism or even Atheism seems more likely than religion in these dark times, is quite simple. We humans have made a mockery of God's guidance and sabotaged his Messengers and abandoned his guiding kings on earth.

    Over time, divisions appear normal. No unity but further division and hate over disputes over how to refer to God and the founder(s) of the religion, becomes detrimental for humans.

    The opposite of guidance but rather, the book is misinterpreted as in the case in Islam, and the Sunnah filled with fabrications that no one in their sane mind can believe a Prophet of God would teach but instead we inherited insanity generation to generation believing in lies that are obvious evils attributed to the Prophet.

    In this case, the reason why miracles are not in the open, the reason why there isn't present guide in the open to show miracles, but now is hidden and if miracles to be shown, to be shown not in public...

    The reason why miracles are not in the open is quite simple. We sabotaged the Captains that navigate by the name of God and are misguided almost beyond repair.

    Religion in this case, seems, to be a catastrophe. It doesn't matter if Mohammad or Jesus or Moses or Abraham are all true guidance, it appears that, guidance has failed.

    In other words, Shiites can talk about the need of divinely appointed kings (Imam Ali, to Imam Mahdi), prove it all they want, it looks more like the powers that be, have funneled it and fabrication of Quran can be even seen in light of that, to funnel our efforts into waiting for the Mahdi.... and it can appear religion was just a power game by elite sorcerers for example.

    To prove religion in these dark times is tougher then ever, because, all the purpose of Messengers you can talk about, you have to justify why it didn't happen.

    The purpose of guidance is to guide, yet it didn't. The purpose of kings was to established God's Authority and light, yet there were killed and murdered and their followers oppressed.

    In other words, because of our insolence, or lack of effort to help one another, because of our lack of response, we even make it appear that there was never guidance from God, and if arguments for religion against Deism are sound, it appears Atheism is more true in this case.

    The epidemic of insincerity towards God and his guides, is ever so present. We are in dark times.

    Miracles in holy books were talked about in a way, they were here to stay. The fact we don't have them, is because something is preventing God from sending them. That is his mercy, so that he doesn't destroy us like Noah's people, he is delaying it.

    But if believers are oppressed, and the oppressors are not fought or stopped, God will have to bring the Mahdi in a worst case scenario.

    The Mahdi, Jesus, Elijah, all meant to come back on good terms. But now they will be coming back on worst terms, and I fear the destruction of great portion of the world and cities... "and not a city (that disbelieves) except we will destroy it or punish it a severe punishment before the day of judgment...."...…

    We think we are immune to God's wrath despite his ever warnings of destroyed cities or nations of the past.

    The Mahdi and Jesus and Elijah return are supposed to be good news. But it also a warning, and it could be with little good news and mostly warning bad news.

    The warning aspect - we walked the path of his warnings. I fear, if the oppressors are not stopped, you will force God's hand.

    The oppressors must be stopped and not supported nor silently watched, lest, we face God's wrath. Even the Mahdi which was suppose to the greatest mercy to humanity, will become, like Noah who was originally meant to be a mercy and grace from God, a means of God's wrath and destruction.

    I rambled a lot. I know. Sorry. But I wanted to speak and ramble through my heart here. Less intellectual, more just frustrated rambling of our situation.
     
    #1 Link, May 23, 2020
    Last edited: May 23, 2020
    • Winner Winner x 2
  2. Amanaki

    Amanaki Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 25, 2018
    Messages:
    8,645
    Ratings:
    +5,168
    Religion:
    Falun Gong (Cultivation path)
    This is the best OP in RF that i read so far :) your word are full of wisdom @Link
     
    • Friendly Friendly x 1
  3. Link

    Link Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    May 10, 2019
    Messages:
    1,522
    Ratings:
    +450
    Religion:
    Twelver seeker
    Thanks for your kind words.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  4. Amanaki

    Amanaki Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 25, 2018
    Messages:
    8,645
    Ratings:
    +5,168
    Religion:
    Falun Gong (Cultivation path)
    Very welcome, it seems like you are more relaxed in your post now, and then your wisdom shows better for us who read your OP.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  5. Link

    Link Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    May 10, 2019
    Messages:
    1,522
    Ratings:
    +450
    Religion:
    Twelver seeker
    @Deidre calmed me down with her kind words haha.
     
    • Like Like x 2
    • Friendly Friendly x 1
  6. Amanaki

    Amanaki Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 25, 2018
    Messages:
    8,645
    Ratings:
    +5,168
    Religion:
    Falun Gong (Cultivation path)
    That is Very good :)
     
  7. Deidre

    Deidre Follow thy heart

    Joined:
    Dec 22, 2014
    Messages:
    6,700
    Ratings:
    +5,186
    Religion:
    Spiritual Christian
    God isn’t religion. So if religion is failing as you assert, that doesn’t mean Truth doesn’t exist. I’m confused, do you believe in God? In recent posts, your assertions aren’t like this thread.
     
  8. Link

    Link Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    May 10, 2019
    Messages:
    1,522
    Ratings:
    +450
    Religion:
    Twelver seeker
    Of course I believe in God and his Messengers. It's just a ramble foam out of my mouth out of frustration about the results of not following his guidance by humans and instead walking the path of his warnings, and it appearing like guidance never happened due it.
     
    • Like Like x 1
    • Informative Informative x 1
  9. Deidre

    Deidre Follow thy heart

    Joined:
    Dec 22, 2014
    Messages:
    6,700
    Ratings:
    +5,186
    Religion:
    Spiritual Christian
    Understand now. So you believe the errors lie with humans and not God? (errors of why we see division, pain, and all that)
     
    • Like Like x 1
  10. Amanaki

    Amanaki Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 25, 2018
    Messages:
    8,645
    Ratings:
    +5,168
    Religion:
    Falun Gong (Cultivation path)
    We all need to ramble from time to time, to get out the negative thought pattern that can make us feel stuck on our spiritual journey through life. I am sure you will get a clear mind today, and be able to grasp Gods words to you in a deeper sense.
     
    • Friendly Friendly x 1
  11. Link

    Link Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    May 10, 2019
    Messages:
    1,522
    Ratings:
    +450
    Religion:
    Twelver seeker
    Yes, but it also put's God on the defensive, when humans have to explain why he is no longer sending miracles, why there isn't a guide in the open. So Atheism is gaining (darkness) and the light and day nature of it, has resided. We are in a dark night. Even design is not taught at all by schools and strawman "complex -> therefore designed" version is taught as if that was the only way you can see design.

    It's like if you are asked, why hasn't Jesus returned. It's not easy to justify. Because obviously God wants Jesus to return. So there has to be a reason.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  12. Amanaki

    Amanaki Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 25, 2018
    Messages:
    8,645
    Ratings:
    +5,168
    Religion:
    Falun Gong (Cultivation path)
    The fall of humans morality, ethics, compassion can be a reason more and more people go blind and can not see God, or other beings in heavenly realm.
    Human beings are about to lose the ability to cultivate mind and body. Because of their attachments to money and fame
     
    • Informative Informative x 1
  13. Link

    Link Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    May 10, 2019
    Messages:
    1,522
    Ratings:
    +450
    Religion:
    Twelver seeker
    I blame it on one thing: apathy.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  14. Deidre

    Deidre Follow thy heart

    Joined:
    Dec 22, 2014
    Messages:
    6,700
    Ratings:
    +5,186
    Religion:
    Spiritual Christian
    I think miracles happen everyday. If you look for the validation of humans as to how you view God, you’ll be frustrated forever. Your views will change every time you gain a new opinion. Having discussions is healthy but if your opinions of God change based on the world’s opinions, you may lose your own faith.
     
    • Like Like x 1
    • Friendly Friendly x 1
  15. Link

    Link Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    May 10, 2019
    Messages:
    1,522
    Ratings:
    +450
    Religion:
    Twelver seeker
    My frustration is not for myself. It's empathetic.
     
    • Optimistic Optimistic x 1
  16. Father Heathen

    Father Heathen Veteran Member

    Joined:
    Feb 29, 2008
    Messages:
    32,145
    Ratings:
    +16,938
    The problem is that religion tries to fit god in a tiny box, and we wrap that box with silly things, and then we see these silly things as a part of god's nature, which is actually our own.
     
    • Like Like x 2
    • Winner Winner x 2
  17. Link

    Link Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    May 10, 2019
    Messages:
    1,522
    Ratings:
    +450
    Religion:
    Twelver seeker
    True, and a wisdom I should've realized in the past. But this thread is a different slant, it's a empathetic frustration for the misguided and the manifestation of truth blurred because what I believe we Muslims particularly did with God's gift to us.
     
    • Like Like x 1
    • Informative Informative x 1
  18. shunyadragon

    shunyadragon shunyadragon
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    Mar 23, 2017
    Messages:
    14,262
    Ratings:
    +6,645
    Religion:
    Baha'i Faith
    Actually, yes it is a human problem, and humans will always be human regardless of whether God exists or not. I consider Deism the least possible choice. To believe in a God who does nothing and watches has no meaning.

    I am a Theist and believe in a 'Source' some call God(s), and an evolving physical and Spiritual Creation in harmony, unfortunately fallible humans remain fallible humans.
     
    • Like Like x 2
    • Winner Winner x 1
  19. Link

    Link Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    May 10, 2019
    Messages:
    1,522
    Ratings:
    +450
    Religion:
    Twelver seeker
    It's like everyone is allowed an opinion except God. Go figure, I was this irrational for five years!
     
  20. Link

    Link Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    May 10, 2019
    Messages:
    1,522
    Ratings:
    +450
    Religion:
    Twelver seeker
    See this thread: Absolute proof against the existence of God, as described in the Abrahamic religions

    It is as I said, it puts Theism on the defensive. And I emphasize, what's the point of guidance, if doesn't guide? Well, it's to guide. The real question is why hasn't God's guidance worked. And I am convinced Quran warnings and it already explained the results of if it's warnings would not be heeded and the bad prophecies meant to be avoided have come to pass and yet some to remain (we can hopefully change those around).

    But not all humans are rational and so if the world is not perfect, they disbelieve in God.
     
    • Winner Winner x 1
Loading...