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Featured December 25th

Discussion in 'General Religious Debates' started by Muslim-UK, Dec 25, 2017.

  1. Muslim-UK

    Muslim-UK Well-Known Member
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    Apparently on this day 2017 years ago GOD Almighty had a baby. I don't know about anyone else, but even just saying it feels weird and plain wrong, going against our innate understanding about the Most Hgh.

    From the perspective of the northern hemisphere, the sun appears to move south and get smaller and scarcer. The shortening of the days and the expiration of the crops when approaching the winter solstice symbolised the process of death to the ancients. It was the death of the Sun. By December 22nd, the Sun’s demise was fully realised, for the Sun, having moved south continually for 6 months, makes it to it’s lowest point in the sky. Here a curious thing occurs: the Sun stops moving south, at least perceivably, for 3 days. During this 3 day pause, the Sun resides in the vicinity of the Southern Cross, or Crux, constellation. And after this time on December 25th, the Sun moves 1 degree, this time north, foreshadowing longer days, warmth, and Spring. And thus it was said: the Sun died on the cross, was dead for 3 days, only to be resurrected or born again.

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    Qur'an 9:30 & 31
    "....... the Christians say, "The Messiah is the son of Allah ." That is their statement from their mouths; they imitate the saying of those who disbelieved [before them]. May Allah destroy them; how are they deluded?"

    "They have taken their scholars and monks as lords besides Allah, and [also] the Messiah, the son of Mary. And they were not commanded except to worship one God; there is no deity except Him. Exalted is He above whatever they associate with Him."

    Happy Holidays for all those with time off work, I hope you have a great family get together, but never could I ever wish anyone a merry xmas given what it's supposed to symbolise. No offence meant.

     
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  2. Altfish

    Altfish Veteran Member

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    No, Xmas Day, ie 25th December, is a convenient time for a holiday - it used to be a Pagan Festival that was hijacked by Christians.

    I think most Christians claim JC was born in the Spring
     
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  3. Laika

    Laika Well-Known Member
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    There is no evidence Jesus was born on the 25th December. Historians can pin his birth date down to a couple of years between 6 and 4BC , but not to a specific date.

     
  4. YmirGF

    YmirGF Bodhisattva

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    No wonder you are confused. It was Mary who had the baby, not god. Hope that helps.
     
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  5. columbus

    columbus yawn <ignore> yawn

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    Your personal opinions about God are not at all innate. That can be shown by the fact that most people don't believe them, and until a few centuries ago nobody did.
    Tom
     
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  6. Augustus

    Augustus the Unreasonable

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    I wouldn't go getting my info from Zeitgeist if I were you, it's not exactly known for its concern with factual accuracy.

    Also doesn't explain why Orthodox Christmas is January 6/7.

    Most likely the date for Christmas was calculated as being 9 months after April 25/May 6 , when Jesus was considered to have been conceived. The difference between Western and Eastern Churches regarding the date relates to the precise difference between the 2 calendars they used.
     
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  7. Rough Beast Sloucher

    Rough Beast Sloucher Well-Known Member
    It's My Birthday!

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    Orthodox Christmas is 13 days later because for liturgical purposes the Orthodox church uses the pre-Gregorian calendar. Pope Gregory XIII revised the calendar by dropping ten days in October 1582 and changing the Leap Year rule. The older Julian calendar was close but no cigar. Over the centuries, it slowly drifted away from the seasons themselves. Gregory dropped ten days to bring the calendar back in line with the seasons. The rule change was to skip having a Leap Year on century years not divisible by four. In the Gregorian calendar 1600 and 2000 were Leap Years but 1700, 1800 and 1900 were not. In the old Julian calendar they were all Leap Years. This has resulted in three more days inserted into the old Julian Calendar on top of the original ten for a total of 13 so far.
     
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  8. Polymath257

    Polymath257 Think & Care
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    The biggest problem here is that it is factually wrong in the astronomy. Both of your pictures are wildly inaccurate.

    For example, On December 25, the sun is close to the farthest south in the sky that it will be (which actually happens on the solstice a few days before).

    That puts it in the constellation of Sagittarius, which is nowhere close to the constellation Crux. You see, the sun would be at about 18 hours RA (think longitude in the sky) and about -23 degrees declination (think latitude), while Crux is at 12 hours RA and -60 declination: over a quarter of the sky away from the sun at that point! At *no* point during the year is the sun close to that constellation!

    And, unlike your picture, the three stars in Orion's belt *never* point that direction to the sun. Ever. The closest you get would be during the northern *summer* when the sun would be in Taurus and in exactly the opposite direction in your picture.

    Given the absolutely wrong astronomy, the rest of the post needs no comment.
     
    #8 Polymath257, Dec 25, 2017
    Last edited: Dec 25, 2017
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  9. Jumi

    Jumi Well-Known Member

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    It is enough to experience God to show that religions bear things that seek to block true knowledge of God, making rules, beliefs, images and history the focus. External celebrations are surely not of God or for God, they are only traditions of culture. Taken seriously, they are a hindrance. Taken as traditions, they are cultural glue that bind groups of people together.
     
  10. Jumi

    Jumi Well-Known Member

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    If Allah wrote the Qu'ran why is the text saying "may Allah destroy them"... it's clearly the writers unfulfilled wish? Or is there something lost in translation?
     
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  11. URAVIP2ME

    URAVIP2ME Veteran Member

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    Please keep in mind that December 25th was an already existing festival (Saturnalia) before Christendom (so-called Christian but mostly in name only) re-named that non-biblical celebration as Christ's mass or Christmas.

    Jesus of course was Not born again, but his God did resurrect the dead Jesus out of the grave as per Acts of the Apostles 2:27,31-32. God resurrected the dead Jesus back to his pre-human spirit body, and Jesus ascended to heaven to appear before the person of God according to Hebrews 9:24.
     
  12. Phantasman

    Phantasman Well-Known Member

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    It's a creation of men, not God. No spiritual event relies on celebratory astrological alignments. It's a ritual. The gospel never taught rituals, especially ones of the star gazers. Even baptism became a physical ritual, rather than an acceptance of spiritual understanding.

    It's of the "flesh" just like the OT teachings and rituals.

    Just my view.
     
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  13. Musing Bassist

    Musing Bassist Well-Known Member

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    I hear that gross caricatures of Christianity have a long history in Islam.

    Your unease would be justified if Christianity really did claim that. Christianity claims that God the Son became incarnate through the Virgin Mary; the conception itself being a miracle of the Holy Spirit.

    As others have pointed out, this is taken directly from a "documentary" called Zeitgeist which is little more than a quagmire of lies and quackery. So of course, the religion part was lapped up without question by all manner of credulous anti-Christian, even by myself at the time.
     
    #13 Musing Bassist, Dec 25, 2017
    Last edited: Dec 25, 2017
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  14. David T

    David T Well-Known Member
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    Well come back after you have read about the topic.
     
  15. Saint Frankenstein

    Saint Frankenstein Ov Fire and the Void
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    Yikes, the OP really shot himself in the foot here.
     
  16. Grandliseur

    Grandliseur Well-Known Member

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    Christ was born around Oct 1, 2BCE, plus minus two weeks either way.
    God has many children. All the angels are his children, sons, so we are taught in scripture. That Muslim do not accept this is not our problem. The being who came down to become Jesus Christ was the firstborn among all in the heavens, even before the universe we live in.

    Christmas is a pagan holiday in my opinion, and was the Saturnalia of the past. The tree and the star that people dance around is idol worship.
     
  17. Srivijaya

    Srivijaya Active Member

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    Valid point about the solstice and the symbolism around it. That's why it was chosen. You're free to disagree, as I'm sure Jesus was not born on that day but...

    ...Why do you wish destruction on Christians? Is being "deluded" in your opinion enough to merit destruction?
     
  18. oldbadger

    oldbadger Skanky Old Mongrel!

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    OK..... but that means that you don't believe in the Nativity stories in the bible.

    One needs JC to be born before 4BC, the other needs JC to be born after 6CE. So clearly you don't accept either?
     
  19. Grandliseur

    Grandliseur Well-Known Member

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    The Biblical narrative I accept, however, I am not sure how this relates to your next statement and why you claim this. I once did a calculation that I now have no longer, however, another calculation using his date of death gives what I mentioned quite clearly.

    He died on April 1, a Friday, the year 33CE, and he was 33.5 years old at that date. If you calculate back, remember there is no year zero. It calculates from minus one to plus one directly.
     
  20. oldbadger

    oldbadger Skanky Old Mongrel!

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    God Almighty had loads of babies 2017 years ago, and has had billions since then. For instance, the Israelites thought that they were the children of their God, so, no probs there.

    The 'Rising of the Sun' festival is what most Brits celebrate, really, but we're used to calling it Christmas and won't change to save you from any irritations about names. :p

    QUESTION: Do you think that Allah really wants Christians destroyed?
    If so..... how weird is that?
    How deluded?
     
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