Debate: If God exists, why does God allow so much suffering?

[Looncall]

I understand it's a big price, however life is very well short compared to the afterlife, and people seeking God's mercy should be patient in life and endure that suffering. In one verse of the Qur'an God said that he doesn't send a problem to someone who's a beleiver unless he's capable of handling it. And on another hand, God send great suffery to those who have comitted great sins and God know what each person did in his life, of course that doesn't apply to the childrens ( 29000 somali child died the last 4 weeks from famine) . In Islam, we beleive that children who dies, comes in the afterlife to their parents and participate in adding more mercy to their parents, and as such get a greater reward in heavan.
Suffery is also one of the great problems that encoutner beleivers, and is used by the demon to lower our faith as well as many other things in life

Ah, yes, the grand cop-out. "Suffering doesn't matter because there will be an afterlife."

Do you not see how pernicious this is? It allows believers to ignore other people's suffering and it helps tyrants to keep their miserable victims in subjection. No wonder misery and oppression are so common in highly religious societies.

Of course suffering is a problem for believers. It shows that, if there is a god, it is nothing like the god they believe in.

I notice that you, too, have not responded to my comments on suffering in nature. Don't you care about it?

 

[Landerage]

Ah, yes, the grand cop-out. "Suffering doesn't matter because there will be an afterlife."

Do you not see how pernicious this is? It allows believers to ignore other people's suffering and it helps tyrants to keep their miserable victims in subjection. No wonder misery and oppression are so common in highly religious societies.

Of course suffering is a problem for believers. It shows that, if there is a god, it is nothing like the god they believe in.

I notice that you, too, have not responded to my comments on suffering in nature. Don't you care about it?

I dont think that being patient with the suffery makes true beleivers ignore other's suffering. In fact it's also a way to help our brother beleivers in time of suffery and as such gain extra rewards, and it's a great duty to help others in Islams aside from charity. Muslims are obliged to pay 2% of any income they make (called Zakat) and for the rich ones even to get more involved in charity work is a must. Misery and oppression comes from people's ignorance and the obediance to their tyrants instead of saying no to what's wrong and that's what religion asks for, your being contradictory.
Sufferings in nature you mean the suffery of animals or so? Animals and plants are of great value for muslims, and the care for them is a must in Islam. I think I read a Hadith about a woman who comitted adultery and was a very bad person in life however in one day she found a cat who was hungry and she fed it, and God forgive her for doing so. As for natural disasters as well as any other suffery, does happen with God's will, and for each ones have it's own reason even though sometimes human's can't tell it. Let's say for example in a natural disaster two persons living next to each other, one was badly hurt and the other was intact, this happened in God's will and he have the greatest wisdom, sometimes it's for punishement, sometimes it's for other reasons that are very wise but only known by him. Of course there are other opinions but this is the opinion I beleive in and is supported by Islam.

 

[crocusj]

It's true somalians are suffering from famine but those who will continue suffering are the ones who didnt follow God's commandements, those who held patience will be rewarded in life and the afterlife

What a shocking, shocking statement.

 

[waitasec]

Originally Posted by Landerage
It's true somalians are suffering from famine but those who will continue suffering are the ones who didnt follow God's commandements, those who held patience will be rewarded in life and the afterlife

What a shocking, shocking statement.

indeed.
religious faith can make people say (and do) the darndest things....
i'm surprised that i haven't gotten used to people saying such hateful things...

 

[idav]

As for natural disasters as well as any other suffery, does happen with God's will, and for each ones have it's own reason even though sometimes human's can't tell it. Let's say for example in a natural disaster two persons living next to each other, one was badly hurt and the other was intact, this happened in God's will and he have the greatest wisdom, sometimes it's for punishement, sometimes it's for other reasons that are very wise but only known by him. Of course there are other opinions but this is the opinion I beleive in and is supported by Islam.

If it was a manmade disaster and everyone died except one individual would it be the will of god?

 

[BruceDLimber]

So what about the animals being devoured by predators and eaten alive by parasites? How are these a sign of a benevolent god?

Well, you tell me:

Unless you're a vegetarian, how do YOU justify eating meat--or eggs, for that matter? And if you're vegetarian, what about all the plants you're killing?

For that matter, do you object to the fact that worms happily eat our corpses once we're dead--not to mention microbes that happily attack and consume us here and now (assuming emotion can be attached to such activities)?

I humbly suggest to you that the spectrum of life and how is carries on is considerably broader than you seem to think!


And yes, I also notice you completely ignored all the points I made!

Peace,

Bruce

 

[waitasec]

survival of the fittest was never meant to be agreeable.

 

[Looncall]

Well, you tell me:

Unless you're a vegetarian, how do YOU justify eating meat--or eggs, for that matter? And if you're vegetarian, what about all the plants you're killing?

For that matter, do you object to the fact that worms happily eat our corpses once we're dead--not to mention microbes that happily attack and consume us here and now (assuming emotion can be attached to such activities)?

I humbly suggest to you that the spectrum of life and how is carries on is considerably broader than you seem to think!


And yes, I also notice you completely ignored all the points I made!

Peace,

Bruce

You have failed to address my point about suffering in nature.

As far as I could see, your points only concerned people. If your god is all-loving, as claimed, and compassionate, as muslims say so tediously often, why does it allow the horrible suffering in nature, which has nothing to do with people?

Why does a loving god arrange for a grizzly bear to dig up and eat young wolf cubs? I must say that seeing the site of this event has made a deep impression on me.

 

[Looncall]

survival of the fittest was never meant to be agreeable.

Sure, but I doubt that any of it was "meant" at all. It happens not to be agreeable.

The horror of it makes the notion of a benevolent god just so much nonsense.

 

[waitasec]

Sure, but I doubt that any of it was "meant" at all. It happens not to be agreeable.

thank you for clarifying that...very true...there is no intent involved
"survival of the fittest happens not to be agreeable"
would have been a more accurate statement

The horror of it makes the notion of a benevolent god just so much nonsense.

the horror of indifference that is.

 

[Acim]

I notice that you, too, have not responded to my comments on suffering in nature. Don't you care about it?

The post I wrote (#27) does deal with this, at least indirectly.

Some of what I wrote was:

Suffering, or more like illness, is an attack on God. It is part of that within 'split mind' that is using grave tactics to reinforce idea (firm belief) that its host is most certainly separate from God.

The logic at work (more like insanity) is if God cared, or was real, or what have you, then God would do something to stop this, or at least show Her presence to do something about it. Since God does not appear in this world of separate selves, then conclusion is a) God is probably not real (Power) and b) God can be opposed, or at least God's Creations can be made to appear like they are in pain and vulnerable to destruction.

Reality is God doesn't, even a little bit, acknowledge attack. The 'battle' is not two ways. Reality of God's Creation(s) are not in any danger, are perfectly whole, are still in Kingdom, and still have perfect Will.

Also, humankind is natural. So to say that people who address suffering in, around, to humans are not addressing 'suffering in nature' is false reasoning.

But since I did address and will gladly address it again, one can understand that this world (all of it, on this planet, off this planet) is 'make-believe' to establish conviction in separation from God. In nature where that is 'observed,' that is where / how suffering may be perceived. It starts with logic that needs of organisms can only be fulfilled by what is found here, and not fulfilled by what is not visible here.

There is more than one way to put this, to understand this, so if this is not clear, feel free to keep asking probing questions.

 

[Flat Earth Kyle]

I wish we could've switched the entire thread over to the debating forum instead of having a new one. We had a good thing going, but this will have to do.



First off, thanks... I think?

Okay, so we can agree that God did intend Adam and Eve to fall. Then why did he punish them for doing exactly what he wanted them to do? If that is the point where sin entered the world then God would have to be the one responsible for sin, seeing as it is exactly what he wanted. I also wonder why God had to introduce them to such excellent place just to intentionally rip it away from them and them make them feel guilty for something that was actually his fault. That seems a bit cruel yes?

This would also mean that God is kinda playing us. What I mean is he intended sin to be brought into the world and then kinda acts like we should be uber grateful for him sending his son to fix something that he started. Not only was sending his son to "die" brutally a little overly dramatic, but why should we see this as anything more than God cleaning up his own mess, which if your like me, is a given. If I party with my friends then I am expected to clean up after myself the next day, no one falls at my feet and kisses them for me doing this.

I guess I am saying I find a very difficult time having any love for this being if he did happen to exist (which he could). He seems very dramatic and appears to set people up for things to force emotional responses, it all seems very, I dunno kinda childish I guess would be the word.

Why did God punish Adam and Eve for doing what he wanted them to do?
- We have to remember that God commanded Adam and Eve not to partake of the fruit. God will never command us to do something that will not bring us closer to him. God did however want Adam and Eve to grow stronger and gain experience and learn the difference between good and evil. In order for Adam and Eve to gain the experience that God knew they needed it meant that they would have to leave his presence, become mortal and experience pain and suffering in their lives as one does when they leave the presence of God. The experiences in their mortal lives taught them the wonder, beauty and love there is being with God. From the Book of Mormon, I have learned that when Adam and Eve left the Garden that they understood God's plan for them and were grateful for there experiences, even when going through difficult experiences.
" 23 And they would have had no achildren; wherefore they would have remained in a state of innocence, having no bjoy, for they knew no misery; doing no good, for they knew no csin. 24 But behold, all things have been done in the wisdom of him who aknoweth all things.
25 aAdam bfell that men might be; and men care, that they might have djoy."
~2 Nephi Chapter 2
"10 And in that day Adam blessed God and was afilled, and began to bprophesy concerning all the families of the earth, saying: Blessed be the name of God, for because of my ctransgression my deyes are opened, and in this life I shall have ejoy, and again in the fflesh I shall see God.
11 And Eve, his wife, heard all these things and was glad, saying: Were it not for our transgression we never should have had aseed, and never should have bknown good and evil, and the joy of our redemption, and the eternal life which God giveth unto all the obedient.
12 And Adam and aEve blessed the name of God, and they made all things bknown unto their sons and their daughters.
~Moses Chapter 5

I don't think Adam and Eve were too upset with God and Him allowing them to leave His presence. In fact for the first time, they were happy, not because they were out of God's presence, but because they knew what happiness was and they knew that God was the source of all their happiness.

Thank you for asking such good questions.

 

[waitasec]

Why did God punish Adam and Eve for doing what he wanted them to do?
- We have to remember that God commanded Adam and Eve not to partake of the fruit.

let me ask you this.
were a&e free from the knowledge of good and evil?

 

[Flat Earth Kyle]

So, because God doesn't know how to distribute food properly on the earth we have to clean up after him? Don't get me wrong, I think he is just made up, and I give to the people here in my own town who are starving. However, I can't "fix" Somalia, that is something for a God being to do. Do you have any idea how much it would cost to feed, what is it, 3/4ths of the world? Do you honestly think that is possible? If God is too careless to distribute food properly then why should I be any more concerned? Shouldn't you lead by example? If I followed Gods example I wouldn't ever do anything, ever. I would just watch, rape, starvation, murder, agony, pain, etc. Luckily, I don't follow Gods lead and I act in situations that call for me, but their is only so much a person can do.


Also, would you mind responding to my other post on page one? This thread kind of went in a different direction than I thought it would so I may just make a new post.

Something I know for certain is God never asks us to do anything that is impossible to accomplish. He always provides a way for us to accomplish the things he expects us to do.

[youtube]I2ObcAqMjIQ[/youtube]
Mormon Religion: Humanitarian Efforts - YouTube

"In 2007 the Church responded to major earthquakes in 5 countries, massive fires in 6 countries, hunger and famine in 18 countries, and flooding and severe storms in 34 countries. In total the Church and its members responded to 170 major events—nearly one every two days for the entire year. It was a busy year with many opportunities to serve. In addition to responding to natural disasters, we undertook thousands of public health initiatives during the year. Over 1 million people benefited from Church-sponsored clean water projects in 25 countries. More than 60,500 people received wheelchairs in 60 nations. Early this year Sister Burton and I, with the South America North Area Presidency, participated with the First Lady of Colombia in a wheelchair presentation. Tears came easily as receivers and their caregivers expressed their appreciation. In 11 countries, over 54,000 individuals now enjoy improved vision. Over 16,500 health-care professionals in 23 countries were trained in infant neonatal resuscitation; they, in turn, will train many others. In a quest to eliminate measles, 2.8 million children and youth in 10 countries received immunizations. The combined effects of these outreach endeavors directly touched nearly 4 million people in 85 countries." you can read more in this article.
And Who Is My Neighbor? - general-conference
I do everything I can to lead by example and follow in the foot steps of my Savior Jesus Christ.
I know God helps us in our efforts to releave the suffering and the afflicted.

 

[Flat Earth Kyle]

let me ask you this.
were a&e free from the knowledge of good and evil?

I believe that Adam and Eve did not have a knowledge of good and evil until they partook of the fruit of the knowledge of good and evil

 

[Adonis65]

So to anyone who would rather live under the rulership of God, you need to become a subject of Christs kingdom...that would require that you forsake whatever current governments you are affiliated with and Vote 1 Jesus Christ!

Which ballot is Jehovah on, Pegg? Where's His kingdom?

 

[Pegg]

Which ballot is Jehovah on, Pegg? Where's His kingdom?

the kingdom exists in 'heavenly Jerusalem' ... it is a heavenly kingdom

the subjects exist on earth and the policies of the kingdom exist in the Holy Bible and the ballots we sign are our own lives. Once you dedicate yourself to the policies of the kingdom, you personally become a ballot of Jehovah.

A living testimony to the reality of the kingdom.

 

[waitasec]

I believe that Adam and Eve did not have a knowledge of good and evil until they partook of the fruit of the knowledge of good and evil

what does it take to understand "no" or the concept of a boundary?

 

[Me Myself]

what does it take to understand "no" or the concept of a boundary?

aparently, a fruit

-

I say the only kind-a satisfying concept that could say how can he allow it is lila.

No that I like it... but never heard/read anything better.

 

[Flat Earth Kyle]

what does it take to understand "no" or the concept of a boundary?

I could be wrong, but I think it would require a knowledge of right and wrong.