Debate: If God exists, why does God allow so much suffering?

[godnotgod]

God will bless those who do right and punish or curse those who do wrong.

Right, I am so glad that God punished the corporate fat cats by giving them zillions of dollars for their criminal acts, and blessed those honestly struggling to put bread on their table by keeping them unemployed.

Primitive man saw an eclipse, and thought God was angry. When locusts floods, disease or famine came, he thought God was punishing them, so they tried to appease God by offering their best grain and livestock as sacrificial offerings. When the 'punishments' continued, they upped the ante to infanticide and human sacrifice until, at last, the only acceptable host in the eyes of God was God himself.

 

[davidthegreek]

well there ya go, there is always something to agree on..

So what do you think will happen to all our current governments during Christs 1,000 year reign?

When jesus comes back. Most of us will perish? who will it be? we don't know.

 

[Pegg]

When jesus comes back. Most of us will perish? who will it be? we don't know.

i dont know about that.... the scriptures say that Jesus will have subjects from 'sea to sea and to the ends of the earth'....so i think that will mean a lot of people are going to be around at that time.

 

[Simplelogic]

Well. Most organized religions hold a false view of God's sovereignty in my view. I don't believe God created evil and I don't believe He is responsible for what man does on this earth. I also don't believe that God is outside of time. I believe He is going through time with us and wants humans to confront evil in this world. That means that He actually doesn't know what we are going to do!! Here are some verse for why I believe this:

Scriptures that indicate God has limited His knowledge.

There are many passages in the Bible that indicate God does not necessarily know what man will do. The following are just a few of them. This picture of a creator who chooses tonot know what his creature will do shows up right at the beginning of the Bible in the creation account itself .

"Out of the ground the Lord God formed every beast of the field and every bird of the air, and brought them to Adam to see what he would call them." Genesis 2:19

If God is all-knowing of what man will do, why was He so inquisitive of what Adam would do?

Then the Lord saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every intent of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually. And the Lord regretted that He had made man on the earth, and He was grieved in His heart. So the Lord said, "I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth,... for I regret that I have made them." Genesis 6:5-7

How can a wise God do something that He knows He will regret in the future? This passage clearly implies that, had God known when He created man that he would become as evil as he did, He would not have created him! Thus, He did not know. God knew it was a possibility that man could turn toward ultimate evil. That is part of the risk He took in relinquishing control and giving man a free will. But that is not the same as knowing man would become as evil as he did. God had higher hopes for His creation.

But the Lord came down to see the city and the tower which the sons of men had built. And the Lord said, "Indeed, the people are one and they all have one language..." Genesis 11:5,6

Gathering information again! And obviously, it was information He didn't completely possess before.

And the Lord said, "Because the outcry against Sodom and Gomorrah is great, and because their sin is very grievous, I will go down now and see whether they have done altogether according to the outcry against it that has come to Me; and if not, I will know." Genesis 18:20,21

It sounds like He didn't know for sure and was going on a fact-finding mission again!

But the Angel of the Lord called to him from heaven and said, "Abraham, Abraham!" And he said, "Here I am." And He said, "Do not lay your hand on the lad, or do anything to him; for now I know that you fear God, since you have not withheld your son, your only son, from Me." Genesis 22:11,12

Again, "now I know", as though He wasn't completely sure before.

Now the word of the Lord came to Samuel, saying, "I greatly regret that I have set up Saul as king, for he has turned back from following Me, and has not performed My commandments." 1Samuel 15:11

How can an intelligent God do something He knew He would wish He hadn't done?

"And they built the high places of Baal which are in the Valley of the Son of Hinnom, to cause their sons and their daughters to pass through the fire to Molech, which I did not command them, nor did it come into My mind that they should do this abomination, to cause Judah to sin." Jeremiah 32:35 (see also Jeremiah 7:31 and 19:5)

God said Himself that it never came into His mind!!

 

[suncowiam]

If there is a God, why does everyone believe that God would care what happens to men?

Why would an all powerful being give a care? Plus every religion creates God in their own image meaning God has human values so we assume that God should care in suffering.

 

[Chetan_C]

"God is not the creator of evil and suffering"
God does not solve your problem, instead he only helps or shows you the right path to choose.

 

[CG Didymus]

Well. Most organized religions hold a false view of God's sovereignty in my view. I don't believe God created evil and I don't believe He is responsible for what man does on this earth. I also don't believe that God is outside of time. I believe He is going through time with us and wants humans to confront evil in this world. That means that He actually doesn't know what we are going to do!! Here are some verse for why I believe this:

Scriptures that indicate God has limited His knowledge.

There are many passages in the Bible that indicate God does not necessarily know what man will do. The following are just a few of them. This picture of a creator who chooses tonot know what his creature will do shows up right at the beginning of the Bible in the creation account itself .

"Out of the ground the Lord God formed every beast of the field and every bird of the air, and brought them to Adam to see what he would call them." Genesis 2:19

If God is all-knowing of what man will do, why was He so inquisitive of what Adam would do?

Then the Lord saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every intent of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually. And the Lord regretted that He had made man on the earth, and He was grieved in His heart. So the Lord said, "I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth,... for I regret that I have made them." Genesis 6:5-7

How can a wise God do something that He knows He will regret in the future? This passage clearly implies that, had God known when He created man that he would become as evil as he did, He would not have created him! Thus, He did not know. God knew it was a possibility that man could turn toward ultimate evil. That is part of the risk He took in relinquishing control and giving man a free will. But that is not the same as knowing man would become as evil as he did. God had higher hopes for His creation.

But the Lord came down to see the city and the tower which the sons of men had built. And the Lord said, "Indeed, the people are one and they all have one language..." Genesis 11:5,6

Gathering information again! And obviously, it was information He didn't completely possess before.

And the Lord said, "Because the outcry against Sodom and Gomorrah is great, and because their sin is very grievous, I will go down now and see whether they have done altogether according to the outcry against it that has come to Me; and if not, I will know." Genesis 18:20,21

It sounds like He didn't know for sure and was going on a fact-finding mission again!

But the Angel of the Lord called to him from heaven and said, "Abraham, Abraham!" And he said, "Here I am." And He said, "Do not lay your hand on the lad, or do anything to him; for now I know that you fear God, since you have not withheld your son, your only son, from Me." Genesis 22:11,12

Again, "now I know", as though He wasn't completely sure before.

Now the word of the Lord came to Samuel, saying, "I greatly regret that I have set up Saul as king, for he has turned back from following Me, and has not performed My commandments." 1Samuel 15:11

How can an intelligent God do something He knew He would wish He hadn't done?

"And they built the high places of Baal which are in the Valley of the Son of Hinnom, to cause their sons and their daughters to pass through the fire to Molech, which I did not command them, nor did it come into My mind that they should do this abomination, to cause Judah to sin." Jeremiah 32:35 (see also Jeremiah 7:31 and 19:5)

God said Himself that it never came into His mind!!

What is so important about this post is that it is Biblically sound. That is what the Bible says, yet so many people believe God knows all and is in control and knows the out come and even though people go astray, he is orchestrating where we are going. I'm sure there are plenty of verses that imply that, but then which is it? The Bible can be shown to be implying two different things. Like God is one or God is three in one. That the devil is the author of all evil or that The Satan works for God. So how can anyone say anything is absolutely true just because they base it on the Bible?

 

[viole]

Happiness can not exist without unhappiness.

Ergo, there will be unhappiness in Heaven. Correct?

Ciao

- viole

 

[Simplelogic]

What is so important about this post is that it is Biblically sound. That is what the Bible says, yet so many people believe God knows all and is in control and knows the out come and even though people go astray, he is orchestrating where we are going. I'm sure there are plenty of verses that imply that, but then which is it? The Bible can be shown to be implying two different things. Like God is one or God is three in one. That the devil is the author of all evil or that The Satan works for God. So how can anyone say anything is absolutely true just because they base it on the Bible?

I am fully convinced that this type of logic was introduced because of Paul's letters alone. This is one of the main reasons why I have rejected Paul's epistles. His argument have no basis in the Hebrew scriptures and I think this discussion needs to be had amongst Christians.

Jews also have developed some interesting views on God's sovereignty as well. Most Jews believe that satan (evil) is a loyal follower of YHVH. This logic then leads one to assume that YHVH is responsible for evil in the world. I would be more than willing to challenge this assertion amongst Jews as well.

 

[Simplelogic]

Ergo, there will be unhappiness in Heaven. Correct?

Ciao

- viole

This concept is not true imho. I believe this is pagan philosophy more that scriptural logic. Good does not need evil to exist imho.

 

[viole]

This concept is not true imho. I believe this is pagan philosophy more that scriptural logic. Good does not need evil to exist imho.

Of course not. Since it is presumable that He existed prior to any instantiation of evil things, i think it is obvious that He can exist without evil.

Unless He is Himself evil, of course.

However, the existence of Heaven, as a place without evil, annihilates all conceivable theodicies I am aware of.

To make an example. The existence of free will is highly considered as something that is better to have, even if the price is evil. But if it is so good, then we should have it in Heaven as well. Nobody wants to be a winged spiritual harp playing robot for all eternity. But if it is the case that we have free will in Heaven, who can guarantee that there will be no evil there?

The default apology is that we are unwilling to sin when in presence of God. But that is weak. Adam and Eve and the so-called fallen angels where also in the direct presence of God, and did not think twice to sin.


Ciao

- viole

 

[Sabour]

Well first in a simple sense, the way in which Allah made things is that Allah made life going around with cause and effect for every action has it consequence. So many times what we may view as suffering is actually because of the person's on the nation's own actions for this is how the world goes.

Another reason can be explained by the famous saying " what goes around comes around". The Islamic version on that is you would get the same as you did.

Here are some verses that would show that in the Quraan

24:22 And let not those of virtue among you and wealth swear not to give [aid] to their relatives and the needy and the emigrants for the cause of Allah , and let them pardon and overlook. Would you not like that Allah should forgive you? And Allah is Forgiving and Merciful.


40:42 And the retribution for an evil act is an evil one like it, but whoever pardons and makes reconciliation - his reward is [due] from Allah . Indeed, He does not like wrongdoers.

64:14 O you who have believed, indeed, among your wives and your children are enemies to you, so beware of them. But if you pardon and overlook and forgive - then indeed, Allah is Forgiving and Merciful.

2:40 O Children of Israel, remember My favor which I have bestowed upon you and fulfill My covenant [upon you] that I will fulfill your covenant [from Me], and be afraid of [only] Me.

47:7 O you who have believed, if you support Allah , He will support you and plant firmly your feet.

2- Another reason for the suffering is that it would be a test for people and the believers

29:2 [29:2] Do the people think that they will be left to say, "We believe," without being put to the test?

[29:3] We have tested those before them, for God must distinguish those who are truthful, and He must expose the liars.

also:

[2:155] We will surely test you through some fear, hunger, and loss of money, lives, and crops. Give good news to the steadfast.


3- Another reason is that Allah is reminding people to turn back into Him. Although some people do the opposite, but some people turn back to Allah only in certain conditions

[14:34] If you count God's blessings, you can never encompass them. Indeed, the human being is transgressing, unappreciative.
[41:51] When we bless the human being, he turns away, and drifts farther and farther away, and when he suffers any affliction, he implores loudly.

[10:23] But as soon as He saves them, they transgress on earth, and oppose the truth. O people, your transgression is only to the detriment of your own souls. You remain preoccupied with this worldly life, then to us is your ultimate return, then we inform you of everything you had done.


4- Better ranking in heaven because of patience. Patience is one of the keys of the heaven and it is highly rewarded in Islam.

2:45 Nay, seek (Allah's) help with patient perseverance and prayer: It is indeed hard, except to those who bring a lowly spirit,-

2:155 And We will surely test you with something of fear and hunger and a loss of wealth and lives and fruits, but give good tidings to the patient,

3:200 O you who believe! Endure and be more patient (than your enemy), and guard your territory by stationing army units permanently at the places from where the enemy can attack you, and fear Allah, so that you may be successful.

If you look into Islam, you will notice that prophets were actually people who suffered the most in this life and they are the ones who have the highest rewards in the second life.

5- Also, sometimes people get punished in this life rather than getting punished on the judgement day for that punishment would be better. If you ask many muslims would they like to be punished now or on the day of Judgement they would say we would prefer to be punished in this life.


Finally we have to know that according to Islam this life is only a test for us and that every single deed and action we would be held accountable for.

6:32 And the worldly life is not but amusement and diversion; but the home of the Hereafter is best for those who fear Allah , so will yo

8:46 Wealth and children are [but] adornment of the worldly life. But the enduring good deeds are better to your Lord for reward and better for [one's] hope.

Also we should know that Allah will not do injustice to anyone.

99:6-9
6 That Day, the people will depart separated [into categories] to be shown [the result of] their deeds.

7 So whoever does an atom's weight of good will see it,

8 And whoever does an atom's weight of evil will see it.

 

[viole]

Well first in a simple sense, the way in which Allah made things is that Allah made life going around with cause and effect for every action has it consequence. So many times what we may view as suffering is actually because of the person's on the nation's own actions for this is how the world goes.

Another reason can be explained by the famous saying " what goes around comes around". The Islamic version on that is you would get the same as you did.

Here are some verses that would show that in the Quraan

24:22 And let not those of virtue among you and wealth swear not to give [aid] to their relatives and the needy and the emigrants for the cause of Allah , and let them pardon and overlook. Would you not like that Allah should forgive you? And Allah is Forgiving and Merciful.


40:42 And the retribution for an evil act is an evil one like it, but whoever pardons and makes reconciliation - his reward is [due] from Allah . Indeed, He does not like wrongdoers.

64:14 O you who have believed, indeed, among your wives and your children are enemies to you, so beware of them. But if you pardon and overlook and forgive - then indeed, Allah is Forgiving and Merciful.

2:40 O Children of Israel, remember My favor which I have bestowed upon you and fulfill My covenant [upon you] that I will fulfill your covenant [from Me], and be afraid of [only] Me.

47:7 O you who have believed, if you support Allah , He will support you and plant firmly your feet.

2- Another reason for the suffering is that it would be a test for people and the believers

29:2 [29:2] Do the people think that they will be left to say, "We believe," without being put to the test?

[29:3] We have tested those before them, for God must distinguish those who are truthful, and He must expose the liars.

also:

[2:155] We will surely test you through some fear, hunger, and loss of money, lives, and crops. Give good news to the steadfast.


3- Another reason is that Allah is reminding people to turn back into Him. Although some people do the opposite, but some people turn back to Allah only in certain conditions

[14:34] If you count God's blessings, you can never encompass them. Indeed, the human being is transgressing, unappreciative.
[41:51] When we bless the human being, he turns away, and drifts farther and farther away, and when he suffers any affliction, he implores loudly.

[10:23] But as soon as He saves them, they transgress on earth, and oppose the truth. O people, your transgression is only to the detriment of your own souls. You remain preoccupied with this worldly life, then to us is your ultimate return, then we inform you of everything you had done.


4- Better ranking in heaven because of patience. Patience is one of the keys of the heaven and it is highly rewarded in Islam.

2:45 Nay, seek (Allah's) help with patient perseverance and prayer: It is indeed hard, except to those who bring a lowly spirit,-

2:155 And We will surely test you with something of fear and hunger and a loss of wealth and lives and fruits, but give good tidings to the patient,

3:200 O you who believe! Endure and be more patient (than your enemy), and guard your territory by stationing army units permanently at the places from where the enemy can attack you, and fear Allah, so that you may be successful.

If you look into Islam, you will notice that prophets were actually people who suffered the most in this life and they are the ones who have the highest rewards in the second life.

5- Also, sometimes people get punished in this life rather than getting punished on the judgement day for that punishment would be better. If you ask many muslims would they like to be punished now or on the day of Judgement they would say we would prefer to be punished in this life.


Finally we have to know that according to Islam this life is only a test for us and that every single deed and action we would be held accountable for.

6:32 And the worldly life is not but amusement and diversion; but the home of the Hereafter is best for those who fear Allah , so will yo

8:46 Wealth and children are [but] adornment of the worldly life. But the enduring good deeds are better to your Lord for reward and better for [one's] hope.

Also we should know that Allah will not do injustice to anyone.

99:6-9
6 That Day, the people will depart separated [into categories] to be shown [the result of] their deeds.

7 So whoever does an atom's weight of good will see it,

8 And whoever does an atom's weight of evil will see it.

Question: is it possible to go to Heaven without fearing Allah?

Ciao

- viole

 

[Sabour]

Question: is it possible to go to Heaven without fearing Allah?

Ciao

- viole

Before answering that question let me say something.

I am an Arabic speaker and I read the Quraan in Arabic. So often the arabic word translated into fear Allah is اتقى.

The reason I mentioned that is that I don't agree with the word that is being used in English to explain the concept. Let me give you an example.

I believe that fear isn't meant to really fear Allah in most of the context, but it is more of an indication to do what Allah ordered us to do in terms of righteousness.

Here is a verse 3:102. I will highlight in red how the word was translated according to five different translations.

Sahih International

O you who have believed, fear Allah as He should be feared and do not die except as Muslims [in submission to Him].
Muhsin Khan


O you who believe! Fear Allah (by doing all that He has ordered and by abstaining from all that He has forbidden) as He should be feared. [Obey Him, be thankful to Him, and remember Him always], and die not except in a state of Islam (as Muslims) with complete submission to Allah.
Pickthall
O ye who believe! Observe your duty to Allah with right observance, and die not save as those who have surrendered (unto Him)
Yusuf Ali
O ye who believe! Fear Allah as He should be feared, and die not except in a state of Islam.
Shakir
O you who believe! be careful of (your duty to) Allah with the care which is due to Him, and do not die unless you are Muslims.
Dr. Ghali
O you have believed, be pious to Allah with His true piety, and definitely do not die except as Muslims.

Now the question is should we fear Allah?

Yes, we should remember that as the saying "what goes around comes around" so we should be careful of how we treat others and be kind to the people because we will be held accountable for every single deed we would do.

What should we do to enter heaven?

If you look through the Quraan, you will often find two things are mentioned about people who would go to heaven. You will always see the two terms " whose who believe" followed by "those who do righteousness".

Examples:

29:7 And those who believe and do righteous deeds - We will surely remove from them their misdeeds and will surely reward them according to the best of what they used to do.

2:62 Indeed, those who believed and those who were Jews or Christians or Sabeans [before Prophet Muhammad] - those [among them] who believed in Allah and the Last Day and did righteousness - will have their reward with their Lord, and no fear will there be concerning them, nor will they grieve.

25 :70 Except for those who repent, believe and do righteous work. For them Allah will replace their evil deeds with good. And ever is Allah Forgiving and Merciful.

 

[SpeaksForTheTrees]

Cant wait to go to heaven an eternity of looking down on earth witnessing Gods creatures having a really bad day , day in , day out , for
eternity..Sounds wonderful.

 

[Thruve]

Love is pain. According to the wiseman, pain is inevitable, suffering, though, is optional. Amen?

 

[allfoak]

I didn't come here to suffer, i see myself as being here to eradicate it.

 

[CG Didymus]

I am fully convinced that this type of logic was introduced because of Paul's letters alone. This is one of the main reasons why I have rejected Paul's epistles. His argument have no basis in the Hebrew scriptures and I think this discussion needs to be had amongst Christians.

Jews also have developed some interesting views on God's sovereignty as well. Most Jews believe that satan (evil) is a loyal follower of YHVH. This logic then leads one to assume that YHVH is responsible for evil in the world. I would be more than willing to challenge this assertion amongst Jews as well.

I hope you post some more on that other thread also. But, as far as this thread goes, with the state of the world and how people treat each other, you'd think a loving God would take a more hands on approach.

 

[Simplelogic]

I hope you post some more on that other thread also. But, as far as this thread goes, with the state of the world and how people treat each other, you'd think a loving God would take a more hands on approach.

I believe that is exactly what YHVH is about to do. Though I also believe that He has rules for how He interacts with humanity. YHVH requires a human to act/pray His will into being. We are not the ones waiting on Him…He is waiting on us imho.

What other thread are you talking about?

 

[CG Didymus]

I believe that is exactly what YHVH is about to do. Though I also believe that He has rules for how He interacts with humanity. YHVH requires a human to act/pray His will into being. We are not the ones waiting on Him…He is waiting on us imho.

What other thread are you talking about?

The other thread is: "Why does my God allow children to die? Is he evil?"