Day of shame for Ireland

[Herr Heinrich]

Definitely a day of shame for the church not Ireland. The same thing happened here(USA) a couple of years ago. It was first revealed in Boston. Definitely was not pegged on the US in any way. We considered the church to be the only thing shamed. I think Ireland should go back to be being pagan. It would probably be better that way. Of course I think a lot of places should leave behind Christianity.

 

[zenzero]

Friends,

Just discovered what Martin Luther said about the CHURCH:

“For where God built a church, there the Devil would also build a chapel”

What more can be said?
If at all any inquiry has to be made it has to be WITHIN our very own *MINDS*.
Only by our remaining PURE in thoughts, words and deeds can others around reflect such patterns which mirrors the society and the world at large.

Love & rgds

 

[Jackytar]

Part of me thinks that the Mount Cashel Orphanage shouldn't have been demolished. If the Christian Brothers didn't want the building to be a monument to evil, they shouldn't have made it into one.

I agree. I used to go swimmimg there when I was a boy. (No, I never encountered any abusive situations.) It's sad to see a grocery store there now. Still, It's gratifying that the proceeds went to the victims.

Jackytar

 

[Jackytar]

I'll try again, they become priests because they are paedophiles, they aren't paedophiles because they became priests.

I tend to agree. It's like cops and arseholes.

Jackytar

 

[Terrywoodenpic]

Ex-priest convicted of abuse back in prison - Rockford, IL - Rockford Register Star

Tulsa World: Tulsa ex-priest named in sex-abuse suit

BBC NEWS | England | West Midlands | Former priest denies sexual abuse

Ex priest jailed for sex abuse (From Daily Echo)

Ex-priest charged with child sex abuse in landmark case

Ex-priest faces new sex abuse charges

There is a disgusting mass of evidence of that, regardless of your beliefs.

I think you take a too simplistic view of the situation.

It is certain some priest either Are, or become pedophiles. That they Join the Church because of the availability of young people I doubt. There are certainly less restrictive and easier access to children.
A majority of Priest become called whist young and still at school, as do many Nuns.
They know no other life. The Church gives them a very distorted view of sex, that they will never lose. They grow up as young men and women, in an all male or all female community.
They learn about real life sex either from other Novice priests or later from what they hear in the confessional.
Little wonder then That their sex drives become perverted. For most of them it is a certainty.
It is an Inbuilt system that will lead to sexual depravity in one form or another.
This is further reinforced by the influence of the Authority structure of the Catholic Church. which gives complete power and authority of one priest over another. This use of power over subordinates, easily translates to power over the young and weak.

I believe very few priests start out as pedophiles, it is more nurture and opportunity than nature, it is almost inevitable that many will succumb.

 

[monta]

I think you take a too simplistic view of the situation.

It is certain some priest either Are, or become pedophiles. That they Join the Church because of the availability of young people I doubt. There are certainly less restrictive and easier access to children.
A majority of Priest become called whist young and still at school, as do many Nuns.
They know no other life. The Church gives them a very distorted view of sex, that they will never lose. They grow up as young men and women, in an all male or all female community.
They learn about real life sex either from other Novice priests or later from what they hear in the confessional.
Little wonder then That their sex drives become perverted. For most of them it is a certainty.
It is an Inbuilt system that will lead to sexual depravity in one form or another.
This is further reinforced by the influence of the Authority structure of the Catholic Church. which gives complete power and authority of one priest once another. This use of power over subordinates, easily translates to power over the young and weak.

I believe very few priests start out as pedophiles, it is more nurture and opportunity than nature, it is almost inevitable that many will succumb.

You make it sound like all priests are paedophiles, very few priests to not have interaction with adults, if it were merely a need for a sexual outlet there would be plenty of adults available to them. The idea that the church ''made'' them what they are is another attempt to excuse the behaviour of the individual or a desperate attempt to avoid the fact that the cause of paedophilia is unknown, you can't predict who is a paedophile and who isn't. It is well documented that paedophiles gravitate towards careers and voluntary work that allows them access to children, it isn't just the priesthood, it is teachers, healthcare workers and childrens services, none of which require a vow of celibacy.

Pedophilia - children, causes, DSM, functioning, therapy, adults, person, people, used, personality, skills, health, traits, mood, Definition, Description, Causes and symptoms

 

[Tiapan]

There are a couple of issues here. First this problem is not limited to Ireland. It occurs in all parts of the world as I have heard equally in Muslim societies, and Buddhist schools in Thailand, the state systems of China and the Soviet Union and even here in good old Oz etc. So I don't think the society or religion is the real problem.

To me the profession of religion seems to bring with it a disproportionate large number of these offending individuals compared with other professions eg teaching, policing, nursing, science, accountants etc. I would suggest those who take their religion serious enough to make a profession of it, have a few sheep loose in the top paddock. So with a high rate of occurrence, other sociopathic tendencies bloom and are allowed to run free, in a target rich environment of helpless lambs.

Cheers

 

[Terrywoodenpic]

You make it sound like all priests are paedophiles, very few priests to not have interaction with adults, if it were merely a need for a sexual outlet there would be plenty of adults available to them. The idea that the church ''made'' them what they are is another attempt to excuse the behaviour of the individual or a desperate attempt to avoid the fact that the cause of paedophilia is unknown, you can't predict who is a paedophile and who isn't. It is well documented that paedophiles gravitate towards careers and voluntary work that allows them access to children, it isn't just the priesthood, it is teachers, healthcare workers and childrens services, none of which require a vow of celibacy.

Pedophilia - children, causes, DSM, functioning, therapy, adults, person, people, used, personality, skills, health, traits, mood, Definition, Description, Causes and symptoms

I still disagree with you, what you say may be true of some priests who join in later life, But this was unusual in the past, and most priests involved in the Irish case joined young.
I do not think that they are necessarily pedophile, they simply take advantage of the vulnerable, young or old alike. Having sex with a young person does not make you a pedophile. Pedophilia is an inclination and predisposition..

It is similar to the fact that most male rape takes place in prison. The people doing it are rarely Gay by inclination.

However You have clearly made up your mind on the matter, so unless you have something new to offer I will desist.

 

[monta]

There are a couple of issues here. First this problem is not limited to Ireland. It occurs in all parts of the world as I have heard equally in Muslim societies, and Buddhist schools in Thailand, the state systems of China and the Soviet Union and even here in good old Oz etc. So I don't think the society or religion is the real problem.

To me the profession of religion seems to bring with it a disproportionate large number of these offending individuals compared with other professions eg teaching, policing, nursing, science, accountants etc. I would suggest those who take their religion serious enough to make a profession of it, have a few sheep loose in the top paddock. So with a high rate of occurrence, other sociopathic tendencies bloom and are allowed to run free, in a target rich environment of helpless lambs.

Cheers

I think it is because the catholic priesthood is the perfect beard for paedophiles, they can have unfettered access to children while not engaging in adult relationships.

 

[Jackytar]

It is similar to the fact that most male rape takes place in prison. The people doing it are rarely Gay by inclination.

Yes they are gay by inclination. I would say there is a little bit of both going on (nature/nurture). Sexual preferences exist along a continuum, after all, and I accept there are some priests and brothers who discover a latent tendency after they join when placed in a position of power over their victims. Or by violent, sociopathic men in prisons. But they are still predisposed. I mean, can you imagine a set of circumstances where you would get sexually charged around children or other men? I can't.

Jackytar

 

[monta]

I still disagree with you, what you say may be true of some priests who join in later life, But this was unusual in the past, and most priests involved in the Irish case joined young.
I do not think that they are necessarily pedophile, they simply take advantage of the vulnerable, young or old alike. Having sex with a young person does not make you a pedophile. Pedophilia is an inclination and predisposition..

It is similar to the fact that most male rape takes place in prison. The people doing it are rarely Gay by inclination.

However You have clearly made up your mind on the matter, so unless you have something new to offer I will desist.

Unless you have an inclination towards paedophilia, you will not have the urge to have sex with a child.

You are giving people too little credit, we maybe animals, but we are animals with self control, bringing up adult rape and homosexuality into the equation just muddies the waters. The simplest and most obvious reason for people chosing to have sex with children, is that they want to have sex with children.

 

[Tiapan]

I think it is because the catholic priesthood is the perfect beard for paedophiles, they can have unfettered access to children while not engaging in adult relationships.

Well any sheltered religious workshop can work the same. I have evidence that because islamic suicide bombers cannot have sex with legitimate females they are subjected to the alternative to give them a taste of pleasure prior to entering paradise for killing a bunch of ordinary humans for virtually no reason. Pity, practical experience shows there are no virgins in paradise.
Cheers

 

[Terrywoodenpic]

Yes they are gay by inclination. I would say there is a little bit of both going on (nature/nurture). Sexual preferences exist along a continuum, after all, and I accept there are some priests and brothers who discover a latent tendency after they join when placed in a position of power over their victims. Or by violent, sociopathic men in prisons. But they are still predisposed. I mean, can you imagine a set of circumstances where you would get sexually charged around children or other men? I can't.

Jacket

Quite right... I can not...
However I have never been brought up in a sexual straight jacket either, or had to submit to the pressures of either group. Priest or Prisoner.

In Victorian times and earlier, sex with Child prostitutes was not only normal but preferred as it was safer. They were not considered Pedophiles. Marriage to 13 year olds was very common. In ancient Greece sex with younger men and boys was the ideal.
Pepys spent his sixpences wisely.

Time and circumstances change perceptions.

 

[Jackytar]

Quite right... I can not...
However I have never been brought up in a sexual straight jacket either, or had to submit to the pressures of either group. Priest or Prisoner.

Do you "submit" to your urges now? Would you take advantage of a cute drunk girl, if you could?

Jackytar

 

[Terrywoodenpic]

Do you "submit" to your urges now? Would you take advantage of a cute drunk girl, if you could?

Jackytar

Of course not, Not only is that wrong, it is the wrong attitude towards a person in that state. They need help not further hurt.

 

[Jackytar]

Of course not, Not only is that wrong, it is the wrong attitude towards a person in that state. They need help not further hurt.

Okay, I'm sorry - that question was way off base.

I do see your point. Seems a bit of a stretch to say that a pedophile would go through all that - entering the priesthood - just to get access to boys. Then again, I can't think of any other "easier" methods, as you suggest exist. Becoming a boy scout leader, for example, gives you proximity, but not the one-on-one prolonged intimacy and the shield of absolute authority and trust.

Perhaps they also enter the priesthood (or other ministries), in part, as a way to "fix" themselves. I've read about gays doing this. And maybe it's not an entirely conscious and scheming thing, just a gravitation - like arseholes to the police force.

But I still don't buy it that they become pedophiles just because they are in a sexual strait jacket and the boys are available to them. Any port in a storm, as you say. I've gone for long periods in my adult life without sex. The frustration rises to a certain level and then plateaus. I can't imagine turning deviant just because my natural urges are unmet.

Jackytar

 

[Terrywoodenpic]

Okay, I'm sorry - that question was way off base.

I do see your point. Seems a bit of a stretch to say that a pedophile would go through all that - entering the priesthood - just to get access to boys. Then again, I can't think of any other "easier" methods, as you suggest exist. Becoming a boy scout leader, for example, gives you proximity, but not the one-on-one prolonged intimacy and the shield of absolute authority and trust.

Perhaps they also enter the priesthood (or other ministries), in part, as a way to "fix" themselves. I've read about gays doing this. And maybe it's not an entirely conscious and scheming thing, just a gravitation - like arseholes to the police force.

But I still don't buy it that they become pedophiles just because they are in a sexual strait jacket and the boys are available to them. Any port in a storm, as you say. I've gone for long periods in my adult life without sex. The frustration rises to a certain level and then plateaus. I can't imagine turning deviant just because my natural urges are unmet.

Jackytar

It would seem that these days Pedophiles act in packs that are web based.
The chances of a young boy with a calling for the priesthood would even know he was a pedophile are slim, the chances that he would chose the priesthood as his profession for that reason are equally slim.

I will grant that some boys have been so corrupted by their priest that they will follow their mentor into the priesthood. I would suggest this is rare, Because most were terrified by the sin and nature of the whole process.

We have come to think that all people who have sex with Children are by definition Pedophiles by character and preference. This is simply not so, some are simply opportunistic. and do not have any preference.

 

[monta]

Quite right... I can not...
However I have never been brought up in a sexual straight jacket either, or had to submit to the pressures of either group. Priest or Prisoner.

In Victorian times and earlier, sex with Child prostitutes was not only normal but preferred as it was safer. They were not considered Pedophiles. Marriage to 13 year olds was very common. In ancient Greece sex with younger men and boys was the ideal.
Pepys spent his sixpences wisely.

Time and circumstances change perceptions.

If there was no adults available to the priests, it would be a possibility that they were using the children as some sort of replacement for an adult sexual relationship, but priests are in constant contact with vulnerable men and women and it would be almost as easy for them to foster an abusive relationship with an adult as with a child.

Regarding the history of child abuse, while it is still abhorrent, most of the child prostitutes in the victorian era were between the age of 14 and 18, the victorians believed that having sex with a child would cure veneral disease, this is a notion that still haunts parts of Africa, where some people believe it will cure aids. Deflowering a child was a strong taboo in the victorian era and there were men who did pay for the ''privelage'' but these men were paedophiles, it doesn't matter when the era was or if it was accepted socially (which it wasn't) the bottom line is , if you have paraphilia and the object of your desires is a child this is paedophila.

I think there is a lack of understanding of the culture in Ireland, up until the 90's people were encouraged by their families to enter the priesthood, it was the ultimate goal of many families to have 1 son a doctor and 1 son a priest, a son that should little inclination towards the opposite sex would have been strongarmed into this, instant respectability, perhaps their families suspected they were gay or that they had an unnatural obsession with children and needed to give them the cloak of respectability, or maybe they genuinely felt their sons had a calling, either way it was the society that was forcing the men into the priesthood.

 

[Terrywoodenpic]

but priests are in constant contact with vulnerable men and women and it would be almost as easy for them to foster an abusive relationship with an adult as with a child.

That is of course very true and is very prevalent, However they are less likely to complain, even than children. Vulnerable people accept "Love" where ever they can find it.
Though Reprehensible It does not break any civil law so is not a "crime"

 

[monta]

That is of course very true and is very prevalent, However they are less likely to complain, even than children. Vulnerable people accept "Love" where ever they can find it.
Though Reprehensible It does not break any civil law so is not a "crime"

But it is a means by which they could have sex without abusing a child, in some parishes priests relationships with the female parishoners is an open secret. There were other ways they could have had sex, it didn't even necessarily have to be abusive.

They abused children because this is what they wanted to do, because they were inclined towards it. Perhaps they opted for the priesthood thinking it would cure them, but, there was no excuse for chosing to molest children, god didn't make them do it, the priesthood didn't make them do it nor did the devil make them do it. They made a choice and put their needs above the welfare of the child, and the catholic church, the governments and the cultures that harboured them enabled them to do it over and over and over again.