Criticism of Pope & Church

[Nicholas]

Archbishop Vigano has given his third testimony regarding the moral failings among the hierarchy, not excepting the Pope.

Archbishop Viganò issues third testimony, refutes accusations of Cardinal Ouellet

It appears that such criticism, whether from lay Catholics or members of the hierarchy, is tolerated - so far.

What forms of discipline or chastisement can be applied to the Pope, or his critics?

 

[metis]

Archbishop Vigano has given his third testimony regarding the moral failings among the hierarchy, not excepting the Pope.

Archbishop Viganò issues third testimony, refutes accusations of Cardinal Ouellet

It appears that such criticism, whether from lay Catholics or members of the hierarchy, is tolerated - so far.

What forms of discipline or chastisement can be applied to the Pope, or his critics?

Ah yes, another Catholic-bashing thread. [at one point about two years ago we had seven active ones going at one time]

Are you aware of the fact that such charges have dropped significantly and that the Church made significant progress through changes made starting in 2002? Are you aware of the fact that the Church now prescribes that all priests and bishops must report suspicious activities along these lines to civil authorities?

OK, while you're at it, why not talk about atrocities done within the various rafts of Buddhism? You can start now, OK?

But here's the thing, NW, I never see or hear Catholics bashing Buddhists, or Hindus, or Jews, or ...

 

[Estro Felino]

It's a vicious circle.
The Pope openly sided with the Italian left-wing. As a result the It. PM unleashed all the enemies of the Popes against him.
Viganò is a whistleblower protected by the government.

 

[Nicholas]

Metis, I admit to having little sympathy for Catholicism, yet holy persons like Saint Damien or St Francis or Saint John Paul II etc. I do admire.

However, I am not bashing here, just wondering what sorts of internal responses the Church applies or or does not apply to critics of the Pope & members of the hierarchy?

 

[metis]

Metis, I admit to having little sympathy for Catholicism,

Which is a form of bigotry, sorry to say, because what you're doing is stereotyping the Church, looking at only one side of things.

I have been very critical of the Church on numerous occasions because for all too long too many clergy, including some popes, ignored and even tried to cover up the problem, and I cannot and will not excuse them for that. However, I also know of much good that's been done by the Church since I've been seeing it from the inside and the outside.

However, I am not bashing here, just wondering what sorts of internal responses the Church applies or or does not apply to critics of the Pope & members of the hierarchy?

Literally, at every mass I've been to (I go weekly) beginning early this last summer, there is an announcement dealing with the necessity of reporting violations and having meetings at the local level to deal explaining how the Church is now working with civil authorities, thus not denying or try to excuse what's happened away. In the last three years tabulated (2015-17), there's been 22 official cases here in the States (this figure could go up because of on-going investigations) as compared to 1367 cases here in 1970-74 (five years).

 

[Nicholas]

You do not get my question Metis. I am not talking about sexual abuse in the Church.

I am talking about how the Church handles criticism (on any subject) from the hierarchy aimed at the Pope or other Cardinals, Bishops etc.

 

[Cacotopia]

You do not get my question Metis. I am not talking about sexual abuse in the Church.

I am talking about how the Church handles criticism (on any subject) from the hierarchy aimed at the Pope or other Cardinals, Bishops etc.

I think perhaps a part of your answer is in the manner in which your OP was responded to.

 

[Cooky]

Metis, I admit to having little sympathy for Catholicism, yet holy persons like Saint Damien or St Francis or Saint John Paul II etc. I do admire.

However, I am not bashing here, just wondering what sorts of internal responses the Church applies or or does not apply to critics of the Pope & members of the hierarchy?

I've never heard of any canonical rule on criticism against clergymen by clergymen.

 

[The Emperor of Mankind]

You do not get my question Metis. I am not talking about sexual abuse in the Church.

I am talking about how the Church handles criticism (on any subject) from the hierarchy aimed at the Pope or other Cardinals, Bishops etc.

Why does this thread reek of a persecution complex?

*clicks 'Show Ignored Content'*

Ah, of course.

Watch out, Nicholas. Metis will happily label anyone who speaks of his church in anything other than glowing terms as a bigot or as a Catholic-basher. He'll also try to twist the narrative to make it sound as though you're talking about most Catholics in general. Watch out - there's a history of this. Specifically in this thread and this thread too. He might also privately accuse you of engaging in Nazi-like tactics for pointing out an organisation cannot be divorced from the comportment of its leadership then block you before you can refute his statement.

 

[Nicholas]

I've never heard of any canonical rule on criticism against clergymen by clergymen.

Thanks, someone gets it. But what about Archbishop Marcel Lefebvre, was he excommunicated? What canonical fate might Archbishop Vigano face for criticizing not only the Pope but several high ranking members of the clergy?

 

[David T]

Archbishop Vigano has given his third testimony regarding the moral failings among the hierarchy, not excepting the Pope.

Archbishop Viganò issues third testimony, refutes accusations of Cardinal Ouellet

It appears that such criticism, whether from lay Catholics or members of the hierarchy, is tolerated - so far.

What forms of discipline or chastisement can be applied to the Pope, or his critics?

I didnt hear vigano say anything in support of sinaed when she exposed the church. So i find his sudden self righteous bs nonsense. I wonder why he was so silent is he gay? My experience is those who are hyper anti homosexual have gay tendencies especially in church. I dont care i am hetrosexual totally.

 

[Estro Felino]

Metis will happily label anyone who speaks of his church in anything other than glowing terms as a bigot. H.

Gosh...in Italy Catholic people harshly bash the Vatican all the time...nobody gives a damn
Metis is an American and a bit too sensitive about the topic

 

[metis]

Metis, I admit to having little sympathy for Catholicism, yet holy persons like Saint Damien or St Francis or Saint John Paul II etc. I do admire.

Which is a form of bigotry, sorry to say, because what you're doing is stereotyping the Church, looking at only one side of things.

You do not get my question Metis. I am not talking about sexual abuse in the Church.

I am talking about how the Church handles criticism (on any subject) from the hierarchy aimed at the Pope or other Cardinals, Bishops etc.

Let me apologize on two counts, with one overreacting to your posts and the second for misinterpreting the intent of your questioning. So, please forgive me.

To the above question, the Church often reacts defensively, but often it does eventually get around to doing the right thing, such as the Church's repeated apologies for "feeding" the Holocaust, and then also setting up networks to try and make sure this doesn't happen again.

 

[England my lionheart]

Let me apologize on two counts, with one overreacting to your posts and the second for misinterpreting the intent of your questioning. So, please forgive me.

To the above question, the Church often reacts defensively, but often it does eventually get around to doing the right thing, such as the Church's repeated apologies for "feeding" the Holocaust, and then also setting up networks to try and make sure this doesn't happen again.

Not too bad then, I mean what's a couple of thousand years.

 

[icehorse]

Which is a form of bigotry, sorry to say, because what you're doing is stereotyping the Church, looking at only one side of things.

The definition of bigotry:

intolerance toward those who hold different opinions from oneself.

The Abrahamic religions tend to be intolerant, misogynistic, homophobic, and sadly, Christianity has a long record of pedophilia in its clergy. These religions often promote furthering the population explosion. I can go on.

So yes, sign me up as someone who is bigoted about these common religious opinions.

 

[metis]

The definition of bigotry:



The Abrahamic religions tend to be intolerant, misogynistic, homophobic, and sadly, Christianity has a long record of pedophilia in its clergy. These religions often promote furthering the population explosion. I can go on.

So yes, sign me up as someone who is bigoted about these common religious opinions.

Please see my post #13.

 

[metis]

Not too bad then, I mean what's a couple of thousand years.

And I suppose atheists always apologize immediately, right?

I don't excuse the Church's errors, intentional or accidental, but neither do I stereotype the Church one way or the other. It all too often has done what pretty much all organizations have done, namely to try to protect itself whether justified or not. However, that's still not an excuse as far as I'm concerned. If I make a mistake, and I periodically do, I'm willing to apologize as I just did on this thread (post #13).

 

[England my lionheart]

And I suppose atheists always apologize immediately, right?

I don't excuse the Church's errors, intentional or accidental, but neither do I stereotype the Church one way or the other. It all too often has done what pretty much all organizations have done, namely to try to protect itself whether justified or not. However, that's still not an excuse as far as I'm concerned. If I make a mistake, and I periodically do, I'm willing to apologize as I just did on this thread (post #13).

Atheism isn't an organisation in a position of trust.

 

[metis]

Atheism isn't an organisation in a position of trust.

It doesn't have to be an organization, so my point still stands. Let me just ask you how many people here at RF have you seen apologize for being wrong or for posting something offensive? I've done it twice today. Do you?

My experience is that most here I've never seen apologize for their errors or for their sarcasm. For me, it's no real accomplishment to apologize as I've had lots of experience doing as such as I've been married to the same woman for 51 years. I even have to wear knee-pads.

 

[England my lionheart]

It doesn't have to be an organization, so my point still stands. Let me just ask you how many people here at RF have you seen apologize for being wrong or for posting something offensive? I've done it twice today. Do you?

My experience is that most here I've never seen apologize for their errors or for their sarcasm. For me, it's no real accomplishment to apologize as I've had lots of experience doing as such as I've been married to the same woman for 51 years. I even have to wear knee-pads.

I have seen a few apologise here, what I posted wasn't just meant as sarcasm for sarcasms sake, I'm not expecting you or anyone to apologise for a corrupt church either, if its offensive I'll partially apologise but not for the obvious, we'll done for 52 years of marriage though.