Cousin marriage in Bible and Quran

[TG123456]

Hello,

This is a thread meant for both Muslims and Christians and Jews.

I was wondering what people make of the passages in the Old Testament and Quran, which allow for the marriage of cousins to one another?

In Leviticus 18, a list of people are stated whom one cannot marry. Cousins are not on the list.

18 The Lord said to Moses, 2 “Speak to the Israelites and say to them: ‘I am the Lord your God. 3 You must not do as they do in Egypt, where you used to live, and you must not do as they do in the land of Canaan, where I am bringing you. Do not follow their practices. 4 You must obey my laws and be careful to follow my decrees. I am the Lord your God. 5 Keep my decrees and laws, for the person who obeys them will live by them. I am the Lord.


6 “‘No one is to approach any close relative to have sexual relations. I am the Lord.


7 “‘Do not dishonor your father by having sexual relations with your mother. She is your mother; do not have relations with her.


8 “‘Do not have sexual relations with your father’s wife; that would dishonor your father.


9 “‘Do not have sexual relations with your sister, either your father’s daughter or your mother’s daughter, whether she was born in the same home or elsewhere.


10 “‘Do not have sexual relations with your son’s daughter or your daughter’s daughter; that would dishonor you.


11 “‘Do not have sexual relations with the daughter of your father’s wife, born to your father; she is your sister.


12 “‘Do not have sexual relations with your father’s sister; she is your father’s close relative.


13 “‘Do not have sexual relations with your mother’s sister, because she is your mother’s close relative.


14 “‘Do not dishonor your father’s brother by approaching his wife to have sexual relations; she is your aunt.


15 “‘Do not have sexual relations with your daughter-in-law. She is your son’s wife; do not have relations with her.


16 “‘Do not have sexual relations with your brother’s wife; that would dishonor your brother.


17 “‘Do not have sexual relations with both a woman and her daughter. Do not have sexual relations with either her son’s daughter or her daughter’s daughter; they are her close relatives. That is wickedness.


18 “‘Do not take your wife’s sister as a rival wife and have sexual relations with her while your wife is living.


19 “‘Do not approach a woman to have sexual relations during the uncleanness of her monthly period.


20 “‘Do not have sexual relations with your neighbor’s wife and defile yourself with her.


21 “‘Do not give any of your children to be sacrificed to Molek, for you must not profane the name of your God. I am the Lord.


22 “‘Do not have sexual relations with a man as one does with a woman; that is detestable.


23 “‘Do not have sexual relations with an animal and defile yourself with it. A woman must not present herself to an animal to have sexual relations with it; that is a perversion.


24 “‘Do not defile yourselves in any of these ways, because this is how the nations that I am going to drive out before you became defiled. 25 Even the land was defiled; so I punished it for its sin, and the land vomited out its inhabitants. 26 But you must keep my decrees and my laws. The native-born and the foreigners residing among you must not do any of these detestable things, 27 for all these things were done by the people who lived in the land before you, and the land became defiled. 28 And if you defile the land, it will vomit you out as it vomited out the nations that were before you.


29 “‘Everyone who does any of these detestable things—such persons must be cut off from their people. 30 Keep my requirements and do not follow any of the detestable customs that were practiced before you came and do not defile yourselves with them. I am the Lord your God.’”

In the Quran, daughters of uncles and aunts are listed as among the people it is permitted to marry.


33:50

O Prophet, indeed We have made lawful to you your wives to whom you have given their due compensation and those your right hand possesses from what Allah has returned to you [of captives] and the daughters of your paternal uncles and the daughters of your paternal aunts and the daughters of your maternal uncles and the daughters of your maternal aunts who emigrated with you and a believing woman if she gives herself to the Prophet [and] if the Prophet wishes to marry her, [this is] only for you, excluding the [other] believers. We certainly know what We have made obligatory upon them concerning their wives and those their right hands possess, [but this is for you] in order that there will be upon you no discomfort. And ever is Allah Forgiving and Merciful.

However, we know that the risk of children born with birth defects in consanguinous marriages jumps from 3-4% to 6-8%.
Does Consanguinity Increase the Risk for Birth Defects? - Jordanna Joaquina, MS, CGC's Blog - MedHelp

This is a small increase, but many countries where cousin marriage is frequently practiced have higher rates of birth defects than other countries that don't.

Many countries in the Arab world have a high prevalence children born with genetically determined disorders, higher than in other industrialized countries. Two of the reasons cited are high rates of consanguinity, and also mothers who are over the age of 40 giving birth.

Neither the Bible or Quran forbids marrying (and having marital sexual intercourse to produce children with) either first cousins, or women who are over 35. Yet we know that when this happens, the probability of birth defects rises.

Why did God not mention this?

Why are genetic disorders common in the Arab world?
Available data suggest that genetic and congenital disorders are more common in Arab countries than in industrialised countries; recessively inherited disorders account for a substantial proportion of physical and mental handicap.1–3 6 Several factors may contribute to the high prevalence of genetically determined disorders:

• High consanguinity rates—25-60% of all marriages are consanguineous, and the rate of first cousin marriages is high (figs 1 and 2; table A on bmj.com).4 w1 In addition, isolated subpopulations with a high level of inbreeding exist. Furthermore, in many parts of the Arab world the society is still tribal.5 6 w1 This has made the epidemiology of genetic disorders complicated, as many families and tribal groups are descended from a limited number of ancestors and some conditions are confined to specific villages, families, and tribal groups, leading to an unusual burden of genetic diseases in these communities (table B on bmj.com)1 2 5
  
• The high prevalence of haemoglobinopathies, glucose-6-phosphate dehydrogenase deficiency, autosomal recessive syndromes, and several metabolic disorders (fig A and table C on bmj.com)1 2 5
  
• The rate of children with Down's syndrome in some Arab countries exceeds the 1.2-1.7 per 1000 typical for industrialised countries. This may be related to the relatively high proportion of births to older mothers in the region (up to 50% of children with Down's syndrome in the region are estimated to be born to mothers aged 40 or over)1 2 7 w3
  
• The lack of public health measures directed at the prevention of congenital and genetic disorders, with inadequate health care before and during pregnancy, particularly in low income countries2
  
• Services for the prevention and control of genetic disorders are restricted by certain cultural, legal, and religious limitations, such as the cultural fear of families with genetic diseases being stigmatised within their community and the legal restrictions on selective termination of pregnancy of an affected fetus.1 2 5 6
  Genetic disorders in the Arab world | The BMJ

Curious what your thoughts are on this.

 

[Pastek]

I was wondering what people make of the passages in the Old Testament and Quran, which allow for the marriage of cousins to one another?

In Leviticus 18, a list of people are stated whom one cannot marry. Cousins are not on the list.
In the Quran, daughters of uncles and aunts are listed as among the people it is permitted to marry.

Many countries in the Arab world have a high prevalence children born with genetically determined disorders, higher than in other industrialized countries. Two of the reasons cited are high rates of consanguinity, and also mothers who are over the age of 40 giving birth.
Curious what your thoughts are on this.

You're right, it's a big problem is some arab countries.
It's cultural, people like to know the other families, they also think it's easier to reconciliate the couple if they fight etc ...
Now there's more and more doctors saying they should avoid those kind of mariages because of the high rates of consanguinity, but people are stubborn.

 

[Tumah]

Hello,

This is a thread meant for both Muslims and Christians and Jews.

I was wondering what people make of the passages in the Old Testament and Quran, which allow for the marriage of cousins to one another?

In Leviticus 18, a list of people are stated whom one cannot marry. Cousins are not on the list.

Cousins and women over 35 are not on the list because one may marry one's cousin or a woman over 35 as well as one's niece (but not nephew).
Are you under the impression that the verses prohibit these unions because of genetic defects?

 

[TG123456]

Hi everyone, sorry for the long delay (like a year lol). I hope everyone is good.

To come back to this discussion, I think that it is too bad the Quran and Bible both allow cousin marriage, considering the higher chance of birth defects, especially when the practice becomes widespread.

 

[Limo]

Allah said in Quran 7:157 "
Those who follow the Messenger, the Prophet who can neither read nor write (i.e.Muhammad SAW) whom they find written with them in the Taurat (Torah) and the Injeel , - he commands them for Al-Ma'ruf (i.e. Islamic Monotheism and all that Islam has ordained); and forbids them from Al-Munkar (i.e. disbelief, polytheism of all kinds, and all that Islam has forbidden); he allows them as lawful At-Taiyibat [(i.e. all good and lawful) as regards things, deeds, beliefs, persons, foods, etc.], and prohibits them as unlawful Al-Khaba'ith (i.e. all evil and unlawful as regards things, deeds, beliefs, persons, foods, etc.), he releases them from their heavy burdens (of Allah's Covenant), and from the fetters (bindings) that were upon them. So those who believe in him (Muhammad SAW), honour him, help him, and follow the light (the Quran) which has been sent down with him, it is they who will be successful."

Allah never allowed something wrong.
We trust Akkah's Halal and Haram.

I don't take "genetic disorder is high in Arab world" as a fact till it comes from real accurate study.
Nevertheless, I don't trust that the consanguineous marriage is the main reason, why ?

• Consanguineous marriage is in all tribal societies all over the world
• There are many closed tribes/areas that people marry only their relatives
• It was always the case all over the history

It might be a problem in some cases but same chances for non-relatives marriage.

 

[TG123]

Allah said in Quran 7:157 "
Those who follow the Messenger, the Prophet who can neither read nor write (i.e.Muhammad SAW) whom they find written with them in the Taurat (Torah) and the Injeel , - he commands them for Al-Ma'ruf (i.e. Islamic Monotheism and all that Islam has ordained); and forbids them from Al-Munkar (i.e. disbelief, polytheism of all kinds, and all that Islam has forbidden); he allows them as lawful At-Taiyibat [(i.e. all good and lawful) as regards things, deeds, beliefs, persons, foods, etc.], and prohibits them as unlawful Al-Khaba'ith (i.e. all evil and unlawful as regards things, deeds, beliefs, persons, foods, etc.), he releases them from their heavy burdens (of Allah's Covenant), and from the fetters (bindings) that were upon them. So those who believe in him (Muhammad SAW), honour him, help him, and follow the light (the Quran) which has been sent down with him, it is they who will be successful."

Allah never allowed something wrong.
We trust Akkah's Halal and Haram.

I don't take "genetic disorder is high in Arab world" as a fact till it comes from real accurate study.
Nevertheless, I don't trust that the consanguineous marriage is the main reason, why ?

• Consanguineous marriage is in all tribal societies all over the world
• There are many closed tribes/areas that people marry only their relatives
• It was always the case all over the history

It might be a problem in some cases but same chances for non-relatives marriage.

Salaam alaikum Limo,
Thanks so much for your response. Can you show me evidence that The British Medical Journal article is not a "real accurate study"?

Consanguineous marriages are practiced all over the world, not only in Muslim nations.
Another community that practices consanguinity are the Amish, who are a Christian denomination. They face some of the same problems.

The Old Order Amish are a religious sect well known for their simple way of life and are of interest to geneticists due to the unique opportunity they provide for the study of genetic diseases. The Old Order Amish have a high rate of consanguinity and therefore have a higher proportion of recessive genetic conditions than non-Amish populations. We have evaluated individuals described as having developmental delays from an Old Order Amish community located in Smicksburg, PA. Approximately 22% of couples in this community are known to be consanguineous. We evaluated one family in which four of the fourteen siblings (two males and two females) had what appeared to be a syndrome previously undescribed among Amish or non-Amish populations. Features seen in all of the siblings included moderate to severe mental retardation, hypotonia, microcephaly, a short philtrum, hypoplastic alae nasi, and a long columella. Three of the siblings had short stature, deep set eyes, prominent lips, pectus excavatum, and hyperextensible joints. Two of the siblings had prominent eyebrows, knee contractures, atrophy of the interossei muscles, disconjugate gaze and hyperreflexia. Other less common findings included delayed sexual maturation, subluxable patellae and cataracts. The individual with cataracts had an ulcerativc ocular illness at age 13 years with subsequent cataract formation. Chromosome analysis, and metabolic testing including urine organic and amino acids were completed and were normal. The parents denied consanguinity Two maternal aunts and an uncle are said to be similarly affected, however they have not consented to an evaluation. Two maternal cousins, brothers to each other and both evaluated by us, also have some overlapping but nonspecific features. The family would not permit photographs at the time of the evaluation.
http://www.nature.com/gim/journal/v2/n1/abs/gim2000110a.html

The risk of some types of birth defects due to consanguineous marriages is higher.

From another medical study:

The reproductive health criteria related to consanguinity show that in first cousin marriages as opposed to non-consanguineous marriages, fertility rate is slightly higher, abortion rate is not different, stillbirths and infant mortality rates are slightly higher and birth defects frequency is estimated to be around 2–3% points more than the background rate among newborns in the general population (around 2–3%). Furthermore, consanguineous unions lead to increased expression of autosomal recessive disorders (Bittles et al. 1991; Bittles and Black 2010b; Hamamy et al. 2011; Tadmouri et al. 2009). The offspring of consanguineous unions may be at increased risk for recessive disorders because of the expression of autosomal recessive gene mutations inherited from a common ancestor. The closer the biological relationship between parents, the greater is the probability that their offspring will inherit identical copies of one or more detrimental recessive genes. For example, first cousins are predicted to share 12.5% (1/8) of their genes. Thus, on average, their progeny will be homozygous at 6.25% (1/16) of gene loci (Bennett et al. 2002).

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3419292/


I think that either God likes it when parents put their children at higher risk of birth defects, or He didn't write the Bible or Quran.

 

[Limo]

Salaam alaikum Limo,
Thanks so much for your response. Can you show me evidence that The British Medical Journal article is not a "real accurate study"?

Consanguineous marriages are practiced all over the world, not only in Muslim nations.
Another community that practices consanguinity are the Amish, who are a Christian denomination. They face some of the same problems.

The Old Order Amish are a religious sect well known for their simple way of life and are of interest to geneticists due to the unique opportunity they provide for the study of genetic diseases. The Old Order Amish have a high rate of consanguinity and therefore have a higher proportion of recessive genetic conditions than non-Amish populations. We have evaluated individuals described as having developmental delays from an Old Order Amish community located in Smicksburg, PA. Approximately 22% of couples in this community are known to be consanguineous. We evaluated one family in which four of the fourteen siblings (two males and two females) had what appeared to be a syndrome previously undescribed among Amish or non-Amish populations. Features seen in all of the siblings included moderate to severe mental retardation, hypotonia, microcephaly, a short philtrum, hypoplastic alae nasi, and a long columella. Three of the siblings had short stature, deep set eyes, prominent lips, pectus excavatum, and hyperextensible joints. Two of the siblings had prominent eyebrows, knee contractures, atrophy of the interossei muscles, disconjugate gaze and hyperreflexia. Other less common findings included delayed sexual maturation, subluxable patellae and cataracts. The individual with cataracts had an ulcerativc ocular illness at age 13 years with subsequent cataract formation. Chromosome analysis, and metabolic testing including urine organic and amino acids were completed and were normal. The parents denied consanguinity Two maternal aunts and an uncle are said to be similarly affected, however they have not consented to an evaluation. Two maternal cousins, brothers to each other and both evaluated by us, also have some overlapping but nonspecific features. The family would not permit photographs at the time of the evaluation.
http://www.nature.com/gim/journal/v2/n1/abs/gim2000110a.html

The risk of some types of birth defects due to consanguineous marriages is higher.

From another medical study:

The reproductive health criteria related to consanguinity show that in first cousin marriages as opposed to non-consanguineous marriages, fertility rate is slightly higher, abortion rate is not different, stillbirths and infant mortality rates are slightly higher and birth defects frequency is estimated to be around 2–3% points more than the background rate among newborns in the general population (around 2–3%). Furthermore, consanguineous unions lead to increased expression of autosomal recessive disorders (Bittles et al. 1991; Bittles and Black 2010b; Hamamy et al. 2011; Tadmouri et al. 2009). The offspring of consanguineous unions may be at increased risk for recessive disorders because of the expression of autosomal recessive gene mutations inherited from a common ancestor. The closer the biological relationship between parents, the greater is the probability that their offspring will inherit identical copies of one or more detrimental recessive genes. For example, first cousins are predicted to share 12.5% (1/8) of their genes. Thus, on average, their progeny will be homozygous at 6.25% (1/16) of gene loci (Bennett et al. 2002).

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3419292/


I think that either God likes it when parents put their children at higher risk of birth defects, or He didn't write the Bible or Quran.

First, relatives marriage is not a must like some situations in Judaism. In Islam, It's allowed "Mobah"
Second, With respect to this research and any medical research, I'm discussing what is clear.
Among tribe marriage was and still is the only way of available marriage in most of societies all over the world all over the history except for big cities.
This is an agreed fact.
The harm is not assured.
Also, it not the only reason for birth defects.

I think the main reason of high percentage of birth defects is the wars. May be the high percentage among Arabs because of Iraqis.

 

[TG123]

Salaam alaikum, Limo.

First, relatives marriage is not a must like some situations in Judaism. In Islam, It's allowed "Mobah"

I was unaware that marriage between relatives in Judaism is a necessity, can you provide evidence for this claim?
However, the incresed risk for genetic defects when cousins get married is a scientific fact.

Second, With respect to this research and any medical research, I'm discussing what is clear.
Among tribe marriage was and still is the only way of available marriage in most of societies all over the world all over the history except for big cities.
This is an agreed fact.
The harm is not assured.
Also, it not the only reason for birth defects.

I think the main reason of high percentage of birth defects is the wars. May be the high percentage among Arabs because of Iraqis.

Just because a custom is practiced among various cultures does not make it a good or healthy thing. Various cultures practice drinking, it is also a universal phenomena. Yet the harmful effects that alcohol can cause cannot be denied.

The studies I have shown you (and if you want more let me know, I can find some more and paste them, it is not a problem) point to the reality that marriages between cousins produce higher chances of birth defects.

How would wars in the middle east (or anywhere else for that matter) cause birth defects among the Amish living in their communes in rural Pennsylvania??
Or countries like the United Arab Emirates? When was the last time a war was fought in Dubai?

 

[Smart_Guy]

Hello, TG. It's good to hear from you again.

As far as I know, Islam does not "allow cousin marriage" per se, it just does not forbid it. The reason behind this is because it is not harmful in its own nature, but it just increases the possibility of birth defects a little more than non cousin marriage does. This problem exists even in non cousin marriage. Mu uncle is married to his cousin, and they have three generations of offspring now and all of them are perfectly healthy, and they even have above average intelligence scoring great in schools and career. This includes 3 children, ~10 grand parents and 1 grand grand parent. One of my aunts too, and she has two generations of of spring all in good health and minds; 5 children and 2 grand children. Those are the only two cases in my huge family. If we look around and ask people with special children if they are cousins, I'm not sure we will get many answers with yes. It still happens.

How ever, Islam puts heavy emphases on other important factors like science and following those in charge. This means if medical authorities suggests banning cousin marriage to superior authorities, and the latter bans it to the mass, then it is forbidden to practice. Basically, Islam left it open to us to decide. It did not allow it direct statements and other major factors were given to cover for such matters.

Islam still does not forbid banning cousin marriage; i.e. if it got banned, it is okay. Not everything is directly addressed to people in Islam, as it could be not fair at some point in the general sense. Islam, in the factors sense I referred to earlier, provides general teachings to follow, for use to decide and reason with.

I personally think it is not fair to forbid cousin marriage because of little increased negative percentage, a practice that is good by nature. Secular countries allow freedom of sex and prostitution (for example), and those were proven to cause STD, including life threatening one, and unneeded pregnancy that could result to abortion. Yet it is allowed. If I compare cousin marriage in Islam to something, I'd compare it to freedom of sex and prostitution in secular communities that allow it. It's a choice left to the people, and freedom of choice is something people demand, yet for some reason decide those same people decide to criticize, and bash really, Islam for not banning cousin marriage. I don't mean you. This subject has been used in a negative tone and motives against Islam many times before.

Actually, cousin marriage in Saudi Arabia is know for a long time among the nomadic tribes. Cases did emerge (I'm saying this just as a default position), but compared to cases I personally know of in real life, they happened in similar scale. I actually never seen or heard from my friends belonging to those people such problems.

By the way, are there credible statistics for actual cousin marriage to birth defect? Is the birth defect higher in considerable worrying amount? I personally think much of the talk is based on speculations because science says it increases possibility for birth defects. I feel other factors were heavily ignored, like pollution, for example. Rural China has high rates of cousin marriage too. I don't see why those people specially decided to specially look at Pakistan. I wonder if it is because of something they have against Islam and Muslims. Please not that I don't mean you in this. Some of who used this topic used it really harshly.

 

[Limo]

Salaam alaikum, Limo.


I was unaware that marriage between relatives in Judaism is a necessity, can you provide evidence for this claim?
However, the incresed risk for genetic defects when cousins get married is a scientific fact.

I'm sorry. I've mixed this with Levirate marriage.

Just because a custom is practiced among various cultures does not make it a good or healthy thing. Various cultures practice drinking, it is also a universal phenomena. Yet the harmful effects that alcohol can cause cannot be denied.

The studies I have shown you (and if you want more let me know, I can find some more and paste them, it is not a problem) point to the reality that marriages between cousins produce higher chances of birth defects.

How would wars in the middle east (or anywhere else for that matter) cause birth defects among the Amish living in their communes in rural Pennsylvania??
Or countries like the United Arab Emirates? When was the last time a war was fought in Dubai?

Agree that "Just because a custom is practiced among various cultures does not make it a good or healthy thing. "


May be "higher chances" but it's not "sure or certainly".

It's like some people are having Favism disease which results from eating beans. Allah allowed us to eat beans (Mubah) but unfortunately a certain percentage of us get Favism.

 

[TG123]

Salaam alaikum Smart_Guy and Limo,
Thanks so much for your responses. I will be a bit busy the next few days,inshallah I hope to respond to you in 2 weeks if not earlier.
God bless you and take care,
TG123

 

[Smart_Guy]

Take your time, my good friend. Hopefully I'll be here to help further in this when you're back.

 

[TG123]

Hello, TG. It's good to hear from you again.

Salaam alaikum my brother. It is great to hear from you also.

As far as I know, Islam does not "allow cousin marriage" per se, it just does not forbid it.

23

Forbidden to you (for marriage) are: your mothers, your daughters, your sisters, your father's sisters, your mother's sisters, your brother's daughters, your sister's daughters, your foster mother who gave you suck, your foster milk suckling sisters, your wives' mothers, your step daughters under your guardianship, born of your wives to whom you have gone in - but there is no sin on you if you have not gone in them (to marry their daughters), - the wives of your sons who (spring) from your own loins, and two sisters in wedlock at the same time, except for what has already passed; verily, Allah is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful.


24 Also (forbidden are) women already married, except those (slaves) whom your right hands possess. Thus has Allah ordained for you. All others are lawful, provided you seek (them in marriage) with Mahr (bridal-money given by the husband to his wife at the time of marriage) from your property, desiring chastity, not committing illegal sexual intercourse, so with those of whom you have enjoyed sexual relations, give them their Mahr as prescribed; but if after a Mahr is prescribed, you agree mutually (to give more), there is no sin on you. Surely, Allah is Ever All-Knowing, All-Wise.

http://searchtruth.com/chapter_display.php?chapter=4&translator=5#24

The verse seems to be saying that other than the examples mentioned aove, all others are lawful.

As a quick aside question, in verse 23 I see mothers and daughters banned, but not grandparents or grandchildren. I am assuming in the Arabic language at the time of Muhammad there was no separate word for granddaughter or grandmother?

The reason behind this is because it is not harmful in its own nature, but it just increases the possibility of birth defects a little more than non cousin marriage does.

Gambling is not harmful in its own nature either, as long as it is not addicting and no one puts down anything of value. Yet it is still banned, isn't it?

This problem exists even in non cousin marriage. Mu uncle is married to his cousin, and they have three generations of offspring now and all of them are perfectly healthy, and they even have above average intelligence scoring great in schools and career. This includes 3 children, ~10 grand parents and 1 grand grand parent. One of my aunts too, and she has two generations of of spring all in good health and minds; 5 children and 2 grand children. Those are the only two cases in my huge family. If we look around and ask people with special children if they are cousins, I'm not sure we will get many answers with yes. It still happens.

Alhamdulillah, I am glad for your family

How ever, Islam puts heavy emphases on other important factors like science and following those in charge. This means if medical authorities suggests banning cousin marriage to superior authorities, and the latter bans it to the mass, then it is forbidden to practice. Basically, Islam left it open to us to decide. It did not allow it direct statements and other major factors were given to cover for such matters.

Hold on. Are you saying that it is permissible for Muslims to declare illegal what the Quran says is lawful?
Wasn't this the reason that Jews and Christians are said to be worshiping their priests and rabbis, since these men make haraam and what God said is halal and vice versa?

Islam still does not forbid banning cousin marriage; i.e. if it got banned, it is okay. Not everything is directly addressed to people in Islam, as it could be not fair at some point in the general sense. Islam, in the factors sense I referred to earlier, provides general teachings to follow, for use to decide and reason with.

Verse 24 says any marriage not mentioned in verse 23 and the first sentence in verse 24 is lawful. To declare cousin marriage unlawful I think would be a good idea, but it would be making unlawful what God in the Quran said is lawful.

I personally think it is not fair to forbid cousin marriage because of little increased negative percentage, a practice that is good by nature. Secular countries allow freedom of sex and prostitution (for example), and those were proven to cause STD, including life threatening one, and unneeded pregnancy that could result to abortion. Yet it is allowed. If I compare cousin marriage in Islam to something, I'd compare it to freedom of sex and prostitution in secular communities that allow it. It's a choice left to the people, and freedom of choice is something people demand, yet for some reason decide those same people decide to criticize, and bash really, Islam for not banning cousin marriage. I don't mean you. This subject has been used in a negative tone and motives against Islam many times before.

I think freedom of sex and prostitution are bad things, and would ban them considering how much harm they bring to society. I think cousin marriage brings less harm.

Actually, cousin marriage in Saudi Arabia is know for a long time among the nomadic tribes. Cases did emerge (I'm saying this just as a default position), but compared to cases I personally know of in real life, they happened in similar scale. I actually never seen or heard from my friends belonging to those people such problems.

By the way, are there credible statistics for actual cousin marriage to birth defect? Is the birth defect higher in considerable worrying amount? I personally think much of the talk is based on speculations because science says it increases possibility for birth defects. I feel other factors were heavily ignored, like pollution, for example. Rural China has high rates of cousin marriage too. I don't see why those people specially decided to specially look at Pakistan. I wonder if it is because of something they have against Islam and Muslims. Please not that I don't mean you in this. Some of who used this topic used it really harshly.

I may or may not have shared this article, but I will do so again.

If there is no known genetic disorder in the family, first cousin marriages are generally given a risk for birth defects in the offspring that is double the population risk (Stoltenberg et al. 1997) (for example, instead of 2.5%, it becomes 5%), or the risk may be given as 1.7–2.8% higher than the population background risk, mostly attributable to autosomal recessive diseases (Bennett et al. 1999, 2002; Tadmouri et al. 2009; Zlotogora and Shalev 2010). Closer consanguineous relationship such as a double first cousins couple may be given a higher risk for their offspring which may be estimated at triple the rate of birth defects in the general population (Christianson et al. 2006).
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3419292/

Statistically, here are some interesting data from Qatar.

I don't know why people single out Pakistan or Muslims or Islam. They shouldn't, because this same problem also pops up in non-Muslim communities where cousin marriage is practiced. An example would be the Amish, who are Christians.

The Old Order Amish are a religious sect well known for their simple way of life and are of interest to geneticists due to the unique opportunity they provide for the study of genetic diseases. The Old Order Amish have a high rate of consanguinity and therefore have a higher proportion of recessive genetic conditions than non-Amish populations. We have evaluated individuals described as having developmental delays from an Old Order Amish community located in Smicksburg, PA. Approximately 22% of couples in this community are known to be consanguineous. We evaluated one family in which four of the fourteen siblings (two males and two females) had what appeared to be a syndrome previously undescribed among Amish or non-Amish populations. Features seen in all of the siblings included moderate to severe mental retardation, hypotonia, microcephaly, a short philtrum, hypoplastic alae nasi, and a long columella. Three of the siblings had short stature, deep set eyes, prominent lips, pectus excavatum, and hyperextensible joints. Two of the siblings had prominent eyebrows, knee contractures, atrophy of the interossei muscles, disconjugate gaze and hyperreflexia. Other less common findings included delayed sexual maturation, subluxable patellae and cataracts. The individual with cataracts had an ulcerativc ocular illness at age 13 years with subsequent cataract formation. Chromosome analysis, and metabolic testing including urine organic and amino acids were completed and were normal. The parents denied consanguinity Two maternal aunts and an uncle are said to be similarly affected, however they have not consented to an evaluation. Two maternal cousins, brothers to each other and both evaluated by us, also have some overlapping but nonspecific features. The family would not permit photographs at the time of the evaluation.
http://www.nature.com/gim/journal/v2/n1/abs/gim2000110a.html

I am not trying to be offensive or harsh , and please forgive me if I am coming across that way. I do not support people who attack Muslims and Islam.

 

[TG123]

I'm sorry. I've mixed this with Levirate marriage.

No problem, it happens.

Agree that "Just because a custom is practiced among various cultures does not make it a good or healthy thing. "

Great. Cousin marriage would be one example.

May be "higher chances" but it's not "sure or certainly".

Neither is getting liver disease or addicted if you have a drink of beer or getting addicted and losing your life's savings if you play one round of slots. It still is not a good idea.

It's like some people are having Favism disease which results from eating beans. Allah allowed us to eat beans (Mubah) but unfortunately a certain percentage of us get Favism.

Except to get sick from beans one needs to have a disease. Any couple who practices cousin marriage puts their child at greater risk than others, whether they have a disease or not.

 

[Smart_Guy]

Salaam alaikum my brother. It is great to hear from you also.

23

Forbidden to you (for marriage) are: your mothers, your daughters, your sisters, your father's sisters, your mother's sisters, your brother's daughters, your sister's daughters, your foster mother who gave you suck, your foster milk suckling sisters, your wives' mothers, your step daughters under your guardianship, born of your wives to whom you have gone in - but there is no sin on you if you have not gone in them (to marry their daughters), - the wives of your sons who (spring) from your own loins, and two sisters in wedlock at the same time, except for what has already passed; verily, Allah is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful.

24 Also (forbidden are) women already married, except those (slaves) whom your right hands possess. Thus has Allah ordained for you. All others are lawful, provided you seek (them in marriage) with Mahr (bridal-money given by the husband to his wife at the time of marriage) from your property, desiring chastity, not committing illegal sexual intercourse, so with those of whom you have enjoyed sexual relations, give them their Mahr as prescribed; but if after a Mahr is prescribed, you agree mutually (to give more), there is no sin on you. Surely, Allah is Ever All-Knowing, All-Wise.

http://searchtruth.com/chapter_display.php?chapter=4&translator=5#24

The verse seems to be saying that other than the examples mentioned aove, all others are lawful.

As a quick aside question, in verse 23 I see mothers and daughters banned, but not grandparents or grandchildren. I am assuming in the Arabic language at the time of Muhammad there was no separate word for granddaughter or grandmother?

Yes, that's a generalization that what's not mentioned is allowed. It is not like that marriage is allowed that's mentioned by name. But I guess you're right, that generalization should cover it too.
ِAs for the side question, it is actually in the Arabic language itself, and in the Arabic culture that the daughter includes grand daughters and parents include grandparents. Even now grandparents consider grandchildren their own children as part of culture.

Gambling is not harmful in its own nature either, as long as it is not addicting and no one puts down anything of value. Yet it is still banned, isn't it?

Actually, I believe that gambling, the one mentioned in the quraan which involves money, is harmful by nature. Basically, it transfers money from a person to another in an undeserving way. Gambling in the lexical sense is something normal, not the one Islam forbids. But I'm recalling things from the back of my head. Perhaps you could provide the verse? If you would like to talk about this too. I personally prefer having it some other time, as the belief I mentioned is what's more important here.

Alhamdulillah, I am glad for your family

Thank you
To add to it; the only three cases of birth defects I know of around me in real life are completely unrelated to cousin marriage. It includes one dawn syndrome and two incomplete/immature body parts growth (if I get the description right); one direct cousin, one relative in law, and one cousin's relative in law.

Hold on. Are you saying that it is permissible for Muslims to declare illegal what the Quran says is lawful?
Wasn't this the reason that Jews and Christians are said to be worshiping their priests and rabbis, since these men make haraam and what God said is halal and vice versa?
Verse 24 says any marriage not mentioned in verse 23 and the first sentence in verse 24 is lawful. To declare cousin marriage unlawful I think would be a good idea, but it would be making unlawful what God in the Quran said is lawful.

Basically yes, but not entirely and simply in the way previous people did and took the liberty to do without care and for personal reasons. Also, it is within the time that has the reason to ban it, and not forbidding it in it self. So we cannot forbid cousin marriage as if we updated the Quraan, no, we could ban it under circumstances in the presence of those circumstances, but not forbidding cousin marriage for itself. Parents, for example enforce curfew on their children, and children should do that according to Islam, while going out is actually allowed in Islam.
Quraan 4:59 says:
"O you who have believed, obey Allah and obey the Messenger and those in authority among you. And if you disagree over anything, refer it to Allah and the Messenger, if you should believe in Allah and the Last Day. That is the best [way] and best in result."
And such a verse is there for a reason, and I believe it is pretty much related to our discussion.

I think freedom of sex and prostitution are bad things, and would ban them considering how much harm they bring to society. I think cousin marriage brings less harm.

Glad we agree on this. But the thing is, the same other people who take allowing cousin marriage as a criticism against Islam, say they are okay because they are their free.decision. But this is not on you. I don't and didn't mean using it against you.

I may or may not have shared this article, but I will do so again.

If there is no known genetic disorder in the family, first cousin marriages are generally given a risk for birth defects in the offspring that is double the population risk (Stoltenberg et al. 1997) (for example, instead of 2.5%, it becomes 5%), or the risk may be given as 1.7–2.8% higher than the population background risk, mostly attributable to autosomal recessive diseases (Bennett et al. 1999, 2002; Tadmouri et al. 2009; Zlotogora and Shalev 2010). Closer consanguineous relationship such as a double first cousins couple may be given a higher risk for their offspring which may be estimated at triple the rate of birth defects in the general population (Christianson et al. 2006).
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3419292/

Statistically, here are some interesting data from Qatar.

View attachment 14738
I don't know why people single out Pakistan or Muslims or Islam. They shouldn't, because this same problem also pops up in non-Muslim communities where cousin marriage is practiced. An example would be the Amish, who are Christians.

The Old Order Amish are a religious sect well known for their simple way of life and are of interest to geneticists due to the unique opportunity they provide for the study of genetic diseases. The Old Order Amish have a high rate of consanguinity and therefore have a higher proportion of recessive genetic conditions than non-Amish populations. We have evaluated individuals described as having developmental delays from an Old Order Amish community located in Smicksburg, PA. Approximately 22% of couples in this community are known to be consanguineous. We evaluated one family in which four of the fourteen siblings (two males and two females) had what appeared to be a syndrome previously undescribed among Amish or non-Amish populations. Features seen in all of the siblings included moderate to severe mental retardation, hypotonia, microcephaly, a short philtrum, hypoplastic alae nasi, and a long columella. Three of the siblings had short stature, deep set eyes, prominent lips, pectus excavatum, and hyperextensible joints. Two of the siblings had prominent eyebrows, knee contractures, atrophy of the interossei muscles, disconjugate gaze and hyperreflexia. Other less common findings included delayed sexual maturation, subluxable patellae and cataracts. The individual with cataracts had an ulcerativc ocular illness at age 13 years with subsequent cataract formation. Chromosome analysis, and metabolic testing including urine organic and amino acids were completed and were normal. The parents denied consanguinity Two maternal aunts and an uncle are said to be similarly affected, however they have not consented to an evaluation. Two maternal cousins, brothers to each other and both evaluated by us, also have some overlapping but nonspecific features. The family would not permit photographs at the time of the evaluation.
http://www.nature.com/gim/journal/v2/n1/abs/gim2000110a.html

I am not trying to be offensive or harsh , and please forgive me if I am coming across that way. I do not support people who attack Muslims and Islam.

That is good reading material. Actually, relative marriage (other the forbidden ones) are really not recommended for us. We avoid them as much as possible too. But since there is not forceful reason to not do it, sometimes it happens specially when we think it is the best choice at the time. I personally want people to be aware of it and avoid practicing it as much as possible. But then again, under current circumstances, it cannot be enforced as banned.

TG, I never took what you say as offensive. It's me who actually acted emotional and allowed past experiences to mention them with stress. Sorry about that.

 

[TG123]

Salaam alaikum, Smart_Guy. Thanks so much for your response, and nothing you said offended me. Forgive me for doing this please, but I probably will not be able to respond for at least 4 weeks... I picked up a short term in my profession which will tie up a lot of my time until the second week of November. I will get back to you on this inshAllah. Take care and sorry for the delay.

 

[Smart_Guy]

Cool! You could completely forget about too if you wish. Your career and life is more important than this. Best of luck, TG.

 

[Terrywoodenpic]

looking back in my family history there has been one cousin marriage in the past 250 years. this is unlikely to be statistically significant.
On the other hand Iceland has a very small gene pool and all links are recorded centrally and consulted by young people before getting into a relationship.
On the Indian subcontinent and especially amongst the Muslim population, Cousin marriage is in many ways the preferred option. Repeated cousin marriages like this greatly increase the genetic problems, to a level not found in other populations.
I would certainly discourage cousin marriage more often than one generation in four.

 

[Smart_Guy]

I have the same exact feeling. Everything, even those with high positive potential, has to be moderated, maintained and monitored to make decisions for or against when needed. Heck, even drinking water has limits and regulations, and it's kinda the best thing to do.

 

[firedragon]

Hello,

This is a thread meant for both Muslims and Christians and Jews.

I was wondering what people make of the passages in the Old Testament and Quran, which allow for the marriage of cousins to one another?

In Leviticus 18, a list of people are stated whom one cannot marry. Cousins are not on the list.

18 The Lord said to Moses, 2 “Speak to the Israelites and say to them: ‘I am the Lord your God. 3 You must not do as they do in Egypt, where you used to live, and you must not do as they do in the land of Canaan, where I am bringing you. Do not follow their practices. 4 You must obey my laws and be careful to follow my decrees. I am the Lord your God. 5 Keep my decrees and laws, for the person who obeys them will live by them. I am the Lord.


6 “‘No one is to approach any close relative to have sexual relations. I am the Lord.


7 “‘Do not dishonor your father by having sexual relations with your mother. She is your mother; do not have relations with her.


8 “‘Do not have sexual relations with your father’s wife; that would dishonor your father.


9 “‘Do not have sexual relations with your sister, either your father’s daughter or your mother’s daughter, whether she was born in the same home or elsewhere.


10 “‘Do not have sexual relations with your son’s daughter or your daughter’s daughter; that would dishonor you.


11 “‘Do not have sexual relations with the daughter of your father’s wife, born to your father; she is your sister.


12 “‘Do not have sexual relations with your father’s sister; she is your father’s close relative.


13 “‘Do not have sexual relations with your mother’s sister, because she is your mother’s close relative.


14 “‘Do not dishonor your father’s brother by approaching his wife to have sexual relations; she is your aunt.


15 “‘Do not have sexual relations with your daughter-in-law. She is your son’s wife; do not have relations with her.


16 “‘Do not have sexual relations with your brother’s wife; that would dishonor your brother.


17 “‘Do not have sexual relations with both a woman and her daughter. Do not have sexual relations with either her son’s daughter or her daughter’s daughter; they are her close relatives. That is wickedness.


18 “‘Do not take your wife’s sister as a rival wife and have sexual relations with her while your wife is living.


19 “‘Do not approach a woman to have sexual relations during the uncleanness of her monthly period.


20 “‘Do not have sexual relations with your neighbor’s wife and defile yourself with her.


21 “‘Do not give any of your children to be sacrificed to Molek, for you must not profane the name of your God. I am the Lord.


22 “‘Do not have sexual relations with a man as one does with a woman; that is detestable.


23 “‘Do not have sexual relations with an animal and defile yourself with it. A woman must not present herself to an animal to have sexual relations with it; that is a perversion.


24 “‘Do not defile yourselves in any of these ways, because this is how the nations that I am going to drive out before you became defiled. 25 Even the land was defiled; so I punished it for its sin, and the land vomited out its inhabitants. 26 But you must keep my decrees and my laws. The native-born and the foreigners residing among you must not do any of these detestable things, 27 for all these things were done by the people who lived in the land before you, and the land became defiled. 28 And if you defile the land, it will vomit you out as it vomited out the nations that were before you.


29 “‘Everyone who does any of these detestable things—such persons must be cut off from their people. 30 Keep my requirements and do not follow any of the detestable customs that were practiced before you came and do not defile yourselves with them. I am the Lord your God.’”

In the Quran, daughters of uncles and aunts are listed as among the people it is permitted to marry.


33:50

O Prophet, indeed We have made lawful to you your wives to whom you have given their due compensation and those your right hand possesses from what Allah has returned to you [of captives] and the daughters of your paternal uncles and the daughters of your paternal aunts and the daughters of your maternal uncles and the daughters of your maternal aunts who emigrated with you and a believing woman if she gives herself to the Prophet [and] if the Prophet wishes to marry her, [this is] only for you, excluding the [other] believers. We certainly know what We have made obligatory upon them concerning their wives and those their right hands possess, [but this is for you] in order that there will be upon you no discomfort. And ever is Allah Forgiving and Merciful.

However, we know that the risk of children born with birth defects in consanguinous marriages jumps from 3-4% to 6-8%.
Does Consanguinity Increase the Risk for Birth Defects? - Jordanna Joaquina, MS, CGC's Blog - MedHelp

This is a small increase, but many countries where cousin marriage is frequently practiced have higher rates of birth defects than other countries that don't.

Many countries in the Arab world have a high prevalence children born with genetically determined disorders, higher than in other industrialized countries. Two of the reasons cited are high rates of consanguinity, and also mothers who are over the age of 40 giving birth.

Neither the Bible or Quran forbids marrying (and having marital sexual intercourse to produce children with) either first cousins, or women who are over 35. Yet we know that when this happens, the probability of birth defects rises.

Why did God not mention this?

Why are genetic disorders common in the Arab world?
Available data suggest that genetic and congenital disorders are more common in Arab countries than in industrialised countries; recessively inherited disorders account for a substantial proportion of physical and mental handicap.1–3 6 Several factors may contribute to the high prevalence of genetically determined disorders:

• High consanguinity rates—25-60% of all marriages are consanguineous, and the rate of first cousin marriages is high (figs 1 and 2; table A on bmj.com).4 w1 In addition, isolated subpopulations with a high level of inbreeding exist. Furthermore, in many parts of the Arab world the society is still tribal.5 6 w1 This has made the epidemiology of genetic disorders complicated, as many families and tribal groups are descended from a limited number of ancestors and some conditions are confined to specific villages, families, and tribal groups, leading to an unusual burden of genetic diseases in these communities (table B on bmj.com)1 2 5
  
• The high prevalence of haemoglobinopathies, glucose-6-phosphate dehydrogenase deficiency, autosomal recessive syndromes, and several metabolic disorders (fig A and table C on bmj.com)1 2 5
• The rate of children with Down's syndrome in some Arab countries exceeds the 1.2-1.7 per 1000 typical for industrialised countries. This may be related to the relatively high proportion of births to older mothers in the region (up to 50% of children with Down's syndrome in the region are estimated to be born to mothers aged 40 or over)1 2 7 w3
  
• The lack of public health measures directed at the prevention of congenital and genetic disorders, with inadequate health care before and during pregnancy, particularly in low income countries2
• Services for the prevention and control of genetic disorders are restricted by certain cultural, legal, and religious limitations, such as the cultural fear of families with genetic diseases being stigmatised within their community and the legal restrictions on selective termination of pregnancy of an affected fetus.1 2 5 6
  Genetic disorders in the Arab world | The BMJ

Curious what your thoughts are on this.

Quran and bible are also books of law.
I am yet to find a 'law' that prohibits consanguineous marriage.