Could anyone have been saved at Jonestown

[ThePainefulTruth]

It is mostly a matter of nurturing the social environment. Offering alternatives to bonding by belief. Questioning aloud and often the most dangerous beliefs. Giving people reason and opportunity to leave more extreme or abusive environments.

All well and good, though somewhat nebulous. it seems like some of that nurturing, alternatives to bonding and opportunities, could be cures that are just as bad as the disease. It still seems like the only alternatives are freedom or regimentation. One on one, what can we say to get through, if getting through is still possible. How do we get through to someone committed to believing the world is flat?

 

[ThePainefulTruth]

What we are discussing are the members who committed suicide because they believed the man who insisted on this was a prophet. I am not one of these people, but he convinced these people to do it. Why they did it? Ask them.

Well, we obviously can't ask them. All I'm wondering is if there's a way to get through to people like them, who close their minds to reason in favor of, to be blunt, blind faith. Call it what it is/was.

 

[Terese]

Well, we obviously can't ask them. All I'm wondering is if there's a way to get through to people like them, who close their minds to reason in favor of, to be blunt, blind faith. Call it what it is/was.

You can't force them open; its up to them to see the truth.

 

[BSM1]

It's still the ultimate symbol of mindless religious followers, drinking the poisoned Kool-Aid as directed by their charismatic leader, Jim Jones. And, btw, there were 304 that were 17 years of age and under. Were those that administered it to those minors any less evil than Jones himself? And they didn't even have God tell them to do it, just his "prophet".

My question is, if you found yourself to be watching a similar tragedy, what, specifically, could you say to try and convince at least some of them not to do it? What could be said to get through to any of them? And aren't there equally mentally lethal parallels between that and any "revealed" religion? Is fomenting cognitive surrender/suicide any less evil than its physical equivalent?

Not to derail your post, but this is a perfect example of evil (and good) being subjective. You are saying this is evil (senseless murder) but those that believe saw this as good (salvation). We as a society are tasked to decide what is good and what is evil. For the most part we choose so that most of us can see tomorrow's sunrise.

 

[ThePainefulTruth]

Not to derail your post, but this is a perfect example of evil (and good) being subjective. You are saying this is evil (senseless murder) but those that believe saw this as good (salvation). We as a society are tasked to decide what is good and what is evil. For the most part we choose so that most of us can see tomorrow's sunrise.

Good and evil are objective, for adults anyway. The confusion comes in with all the extraneous non-moral behavior that religion and politics piles up under the morality label. Morality is simply nothing more than the Golden Rule, and is rationally deduced.

 

[ThePainefulTruth]

You can't force them open; its up to them to see the truth.

Exactly. I guess what we really need to ask is how do we know if our own mind is closed? How do we determine Truth as reasonably as possible? How do we resist surrender to blind faith?

 

[LuisDantas]

All well and good, though somewhat nebulous. it seems like some of that nurturing, alternatives to bonding and opportunities, could be cures that are just as bad as the disease.

Not sure what you are picturing here.

It still seems like the only alternatives are freedom or regimentation. One on one, what can we say to get through, if getting through is still possible. How do we get through to someone committed to believing the world is flat?

There is no way around the need to captivate their trust.

 

[Unification]

Exactly. I guess what we really need to ask is how do we know if our own mind is closed? How do we determine Truth as reasonably as possible? How do we resist surrender to blind faith?

We can't know until our closed, unaware minds awaken... most people start to realize in baby steps the more they create destruction and suffering in their lives and say enough is enough. The emptiness and desolation left inside oftentimes will create alternative paths.

Blind faith can be negative or positive. Take for instance a closed mind. They have no conscious idea of what else there can be then what they already perceive. It would require blind faith that an alternative mindset can be reached and blind faith that they can escape a mental slavery and blind faith that it will pay off. They go into their personal journey blinded to what the new mindset may look like down the road but they potentially have faith that it is there and is more beneficial than their current closed and conditioned mindset. Blind faith that there is another side of the shore. If it's reached, that initial blind faith paid off and becomes directly knowing/experiencing. The things they once weren't capable of being aware to, due to a closed conditioned mind they became capable of being aware to. Not seen and then seen (awareness.)

Some are too far gone. . this is sad but reality. We have to become aware that we cannot save anyone from anything, or force anyone to do or not do anything. Continue to plant loving and peaceful seeds of ideas, alternatives into people's minds and hope for the best.

 

[ThePainefulTruth]

Not sure what you are picturing here.

There is no way around the need to captivate their trust.

I was convinced to take my "fate" into my own hands. And I was aided in that step by an atheist who I didn't agree with or trust particularly, but who presented some evidence who made me finally start thinking for myself.

We can't know until our closed, unaware minds awaken... most people start to realize in baby steps the more they create destruction and suffering in their lives and say enough is enough. The emptiness and desolation left inside oftentimes will create alternative paths.

Blind faith can be negative or positive. Take for instance a closed mind. They have no conscious idea of what else there can be then what they already perceive. It would require blind faith that an alternative mindset can be reached and blind faith that they can escape a mental slavery and blind faith that it will pay off.

If that were true I'd never been converted from my blind faith. Without a reasoned evaluation of my situation, I'd never have been able to face the trauma I went through emotionally when I cut the cord.

I just got to thinking about what makes people do things like Jonestown or even 911--it's conforming to ones peers. It's a herd or lemming mentality. I think individuality and independence should be promoted and supported as much as possible. But our churches and governments mostly find that to be counterproductive to their goals. I've had these thoughts before, but I've just never been able to contemplate applying them in a situation like Jonestown or the like.

 

[LuisDantas]

It would seem to me that whatever that evidence was served to earn your trust, did it not?

 

[outhouse]

Surrendering to an illusion doesn't make the illusion true.

Not true.

Most religions are based on illusion, and they all think its real.

 

[outhouse]

It's a herd or lemming mentality.

Welcome to religion.

Most are born into it.

Breaking the ties is not easy, it takes education

 

[InChrist]

Jim Jones was one of many false prophets and false christs warned about by Jesus Christ in the scriptures by which all men making such claims as Jones did are to be tested. The sad thing is that most who end up following leaders as Jones depend on their own feelings and judgment instead of using God's Word as the means of testing.

"The most puzzling question, which arose out of the tragedy at Jonestown, is how one man could achieve such control over a large group of people to the point that they would willingly die at his command.

The answer is that Jones was a “false prophet.” He drew in people with lies and deception. Jones’ followers were enticed with good “feelings” rather than Christ’s saving grace.

New members were awed by Jones. He widely publicized his services, promising miraculous healings where cancers would be removed and the blind made to see. Before their eyes, Jones would heal cancer patients and a mass of putrid tissue would be pulled from the patient’s body.

Jones was a true antichrist — a man who put himself up to take the place of Christ. Toward the end, he said he was their Messiah and those that believed his lie followed him into the jungle, never to return.

One recurring characteristic of the false prophets is that they are careful to speak pleasing, positive, and flattering words. Jeremiah condemned the false prophets who were always saying, “Peace, peace; when there is no peace” (Jer. 6:14; 8:11). Jeremiah also said, “The prophets prophesy falsely … and My people love to have it so” (Jer. 5:31). Even though Jeremiah was a true prophet of the Lord, the false prophets were rewarded by the king and Jeremiah was cast into a dungeon (Jer. 38:6).

Jesus predicted false prophets would arise and mislead many. If Jesus were telling the truth, then we should expect such false prophets to rise up, and be successful in misleading people.

“Many false prophets will appear and deceive many people,”

— Matthew 24:11, ISV

The apostles instructed believers to be diligent in faith and understanding of Christian teachings, in order to discern false prophets when they arise (2 Pet. 1:10; 1:19–2:1; 1 John 4:1).

The instructions of the apostles were echoed by Herbert Newell when he said, “Had we been in church and reading our Bible, we would have known that this was not something Christian-like or of God.”

http://khouse.org/articles/2015/1226/print/

 

[Unification]

I was convinced to take my "fate" into my own hands. And I was aided in that step by an atheist who I didn't agree with or trust particularly, but who presented some evidence who made me finally start thinking for myself.



If that were true I'd never been converted from my blind faith. Without a reasoned evaluation of my situation, I'd never have been able to face the trauma I went through emotionally when I cut the cord.

I just got to thinking about what makes people do things like Jonestown or even 911--it's conforming to ones peers. It's a herd or lemming mentality. I think individuality and independence should be promoted and supported as much as possible. But our churches and governments mostly find that to be counterproductive to their goals. I've had these thoughts before, but I've just never been able to contemplate applying them in a situation like Jonestown or the like.

I agree, I suppose I'm not basing faith as things externally not visibly seen with eyes, but rather mental eyes so to speak as in awareness. Once being blind(unaware) and now seeing(becoming aware). Faith more as in confidence and trust.

Blind faith in things externally not seen with eyesight can be very dangerous. I know that I took the leap of faith through my conscience, better judgement, reason, and intuition to leave all of that junk that didn't make sense. Leaving it all behind and not quite knowing what was ahead in doing so. The relationships developed with many was the hardest part and being single in a church building with a ton of young adults and women made it difficult too.

It is pretty hard to fathom. May have seemed like a good idea initially, a utopian society in South America that turned sour quick for people. . went into a situation with expectations only to be led to a trap and forced to conform to the egotistical peer(s) even more. Trapped and nowhere to go. And like a last choice was presented, poison yourself and take your own life, or be shot and killed. Even the congressmen and crew tried saving some people but couldn't. The best convincing would have to come before going to South America. There were probably many families and friends that tried convincing some not to go. Any stories of anyone that you know of that declined going?

Individuality and independence and the ability to think for oneself is very important. Church buildings, governments, people all want to have control and power over others and mold others into what they want them to become. When living in emotion, we are naive and vulnerable. Many can't even trust themselves so they place trust in others. . also dangerous and freedom stripping.

 

[ThePainefulTruth]

Not true.

Most religions are based on illusion, and they all think its real.

THINK it is real being the operative phrase.

Welcome to religion.

Most are born into it.

Breaking the ties is not easy, it takes education

Been there done that, and I'm not special, which made me wonder why it doesn't happen more often. I guess it goes against the herd mentality to break with the herd. That simple adage took a long time coming.

 

[ThePainefulTruth]

Jim Jones was one of many false prophets and false christs warned about by Jesus Christ in the scriptures by which all men making such claims as Jones did are to be tested. The sad thing is that most who end up following leaders as Jones depend on their own feelings and judgment instead of using God's Word as the means of testing.

"The most puzzling question, which arose out of the tragedy at Jonestown, is how one man could achieve such control over a large group of people to the point that they would willingly die at his command.

The answer is that Jones was a “false prophet.” He drew in people with lies and deception. Jones’ followers were enticed with good “feelings” rather than Christ’s saving grace.

New members were awed by Jones. He widely publicized his services, promising miraculous healings where cancers would be removed and the blind made to see. Before their eyes, Jones would heal cancer patients and a mass of putrid tissue would be pulled from the patient’s body.

Jones was a true antichrist — a man who put himself up to take the place of Christ. Toward the end, he said he was their Messiah and those that believed his lie followed him into the jungle, never to return.

One recurring characteristic of the false prophets is that they are careful to speak pleasing, positive, and flattering words. Jeremiah condemned the false prophets who were always saying, “Peace, peace; when there is no peace” (Jer. 6:14; 8:11). Jeremiah also said, “The prophets prophesy falsely … and My people love to have it so” (Jer. 5:31). Even though Jeremiah was a true prophet of the Lord, the false prophets were rewarded by the king and Jeremiah was cast into a dungeon (Jer. 38:6).

Jesus predicted false prophets would arise and mislead many. If Jesus were telling the truth, then we should expect such false prophets to rise up, and be successful in misleading people.

“Many false prophets will appear and deceive many people,”

— Matthew 24:11, ISV

The apostles instructed believers to be diligent in faith and understanding of Christian teachings, in order to discern false prophets when they arise (2 Pet. 1:10; 1:19–2:1; 1 John 4:1).

The instructions of the apostles were echoed by Herbert Newell when he said, “Had we been in church and reading our Bible, we would have known that this was not something Christian-like or of God.”

http://khouse.org/articles/2015/1226/print/

False prophets all warn agaisnt other false prophets. Strange none of em worry that much about recognizing Truth.

Individuality and independence and the ability to think for oneself is very important. Church buildings, governments, people all want to have control and power over others and mold others into what they want them to become. When living in emotion, we are naive and vulnerable. Many can't even trust themselves so they place trust in others. . also dangerous and freedom stripping.

I certainly agree with that part.

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

The children could've been saved.

 

[ThePainefulTruth]

It would seem to me that whatever that evidence was served to earn your trust, did it not?

Yes, because the evidence was reasonable, unlike blind faith.

 

[ThePainefulTruth]

The children could've been saved.

A social promotion for individual self-respect, bused on something real rather than phony catchphrases, would probably have saved the children by saving the parents.

 

[Politesse]

Um, there were in fact several survivors. But I guess that's not the point of the thread...

Carry on.