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Could anyone have been saved at Jonestown

ThePainefulTruth

Romantic-Cynic
2015-11-18-1447868918-8280142-jonestown.jpg


It's still the ultimate symbol of mindless religious followers, drinking the poisoned Kool-Aid as directed by their charismatic leader, Jim Jones. And, btw, there were 304 that were 17 years of age and under. Were those that administered it to those minors any less evil than Jones himself? And they didn't even have God tell them to do it, just his "prophet".

My question is, if you found yourself to be watching a similar tragedy, what, specifically, could you say to try and convince at least some of them not to do it? What could be said to get through to any of them? And aren't there equally mentally lethal parallels between that and any "revealed" religion? Is fomenting cognitive surrender/suicide any less evil than its physical equivalent?
 

Terese

Mangalam Pundarikakshah
Staff member
Premium Member
Fanatics. If you believe in it hard enough, it becomes true.
 

Laika

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
I tried to talk my best freind out of getting involved in the arms trade. it was a job offer he got and accepted and I knew him well enough to know it wasn't going to end well. there was nothing I could do as he'd made up his mind and I sort of knew that at the time but couldn't accept it. it was so offensive as I was in love with him and it felt like a deeply personal betrayal and a violation of my trust in him. if I had that decision over again, I would have done the same thing only it would not have been such a mess. "acceptence" would have been easier this time round. In these situations you have to try if only for yourself. we are no longer freinds and I miss him very much, but that is how he wanted it and I do my best to respect that.
 

ThePainefulTruth

Romantic-Cynic
The way I see it, the best prevention is seeding a skeptical worldview.

A skeptical worldview is only worthwhile to an open mind. Mental and physical Kool-Aid drinkers have slammed their minds shut--though the impetus for this thread is the question of the possibility of a key that can unlock them.
 

LuisDantas

Aura of atheification
Premium Member
There is a lot of peer pressure in those situations. I think it can be prevented.
 

ThePainefulTruth

Romantic-Cynic
I tried to talk my best freind out of getting involved in the arms trade. it was a job offer he got and accepted and I knew him well enough to know it wasn't going to end well. there was nothing I could do as he'd made up his mind and I sort of knew that at the time but couldn't accept it. it was so offensive as I was in love with him and it felt like a deeply personal betrayal and a violation of my trust in him. if I had that decision over again, I would have done the same thing only it would not have been such a mess. "acceptence" would have been easier this time round. In these situations you have to try if only for yourself. we are no longer freinds and I miss him very much, but that is how he wanted it and I do my best to respect that.

Yeah, self-destructive urges present themselves in many different ways. But you can't blame yourself.

But to them, it's not an illusion.

And that's a declaration without basis. If we all could determine Truth by declaration of thoughts, the universe would be complete chaos instead of the order we ALL see. Art is subjective, nature is not.
 

Terese

Mangalam Pundarikakshah
Staff member
Premium Member
Yeah, self-destructive urges present themselves in many different ways. But you can't blame yourself.



And that's a declaration without basis. If we all could determine Truth by declaration of thoughts, the universe would be complete chaos instead of the order we ALL see. Art is subjective, nature is not.
But the way we see nature is subjective.
 

Corthos

Great Old One
The way I see it, the best prevention is seeding a skeptical worldview.

Seeds of doubt take time to grow, unfortunately, and the allegorical plant that grows doesn't always bear fruit. Many religions have self policing doctrines to make sure you keep your head down and don't try to slip out of, or loosen your self imposed shackles.... It's sad. =/
 

ThePainefulTruth

Romantic-Cynic
But the way we see nature is subjective.

Perspective may differ, but that doesn't change what we perceive. H2O is still a molecule of water no matter who sees it, and the oceans of those molecules were there long before, and will be there long after, all the people who have perceived them, and will be changed by none.
 

LuisDantas

Aura of atheification
Premium Member
It is mostly a matter of nurturing the social environment. Offering alternatives to bonding by belief. Questioning aloud and often the most dangerous beliefs. Giving people reason and opportunity to leave more extreme or abusive environments.
 

Terese

Mangalam Pundarikakshah
Staff member
Premium Member
Perspective may differ, but that doesn't change what we perceive. H2O is still a molecule of water no matter who sees it, and the oceans of those molecules were there long before, and will be there long after, all the people who have perceived them, and will be changed by none.
What we are discussing are the members who committed suicide because they believed the man who insisted on this was a prophet. I am not one of these people, but he convinced these people to do it. Why they did it? Ask them.
 
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