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Cosmic Consciousness: Everything from matter is just making a baseless assumptions

Discussion in 'Philosophy' started by Ostronomos, Jan 12, 2021.

  1. Ostronomos

    Ostronomos Active Member

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    Let us entertain the idea that everything came from matter for a moment. Then the question becomes, how did matter give rise to consciousness? What are the properties inherent within matter that allow for a being to compose Beethoven's symphonies, discover a new law of Physics, create life? If there is some extra property in matter that we are completely unaware of, I ask, what is it?

     
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  2. sun rise

    sun rise "This is the Hour of God"
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  3. syo

    syo Well-Known Member

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    Matter is the final stage. It is not the first stage. :) we are maya, the last matter. The gods are first, we are the end.
     
  4. epronovost

    epronovost Well-Known Member

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    Ever tried to google the term "emergent property"? It's this idea the sum of all parts of a system is greater than their combined individual value. It's observed all the time when you look at teamwork or any computer software or hardware.
     
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  5. stvdv

    stvdv Veteran Member

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    Matter is unreal. It seems real in the moment, but over time all can see it changes, hence unreal. So nothing real ever comes from matter.

    Note: Truth that what does not change
     
  6. ChristineM

    ChristineM "Be strong" I whispered to my coffee.
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    Consciousness also requires energy
     
  7. MikeF

    MikeF Proponent of RAEism
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    I do not believe it is as mysterious as you make it out to be. Life on this planet, we biological organisms, are made up of matter. In looking for consciousness, we do not look to generic matter, but look to how the atoms, the molecules formed by different atoms, are all assembled to form the central nervous system of human beings and other forms of life. It is how these molecules are arranged to form specialized cells that dictate the cognitive abilities of a particular species.

    We have learned much about how our central nervous system works by studying instances where it has been damaged in some way or is impaired by some other physical or mental pathology, informing us as to how specific structures in the brain relate to cognitive function.

    Consciousness comes from the configuration of various elements of matter, it is not a property of the generic term "matter".
     
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  8. janesix

    janesix Active Member

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    That is reasonable. And probably true.
     
  9. MikeF

    MikeF Proponent of RAEism
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    Someone corrected me once that matter and energy are not different but different states of the same thing.
    E=MC².
     
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  10. ChristineM

    ChristineM "Be strong" I whispered to my coffee.
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    Yes, thermodynamics is a wonderful thing. Consciousness requires both states.
     
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  11. Polymath257

    Polymath257 Think & Care
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    You are wrong. Energy is a property of matter, and is related to mass. But matter also has other properties, such as momentum, spin, charge, etc.

    In particular, energy is very closely associated with momentum. The equation E=mc^2 , while very popular, is only one case of the equation when a particle is in motion,

    E^2 = m^2 c^4 + p^2 c^2

    where m is the rest mass and p is the momentum. This is the full equation relating energy, mass, and momentum.
     
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  12. MikeF

    MikeF Proponent of RAEism
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    Excellent. Thanks for the clarification. I will try and get that in my brain for the next time this comes up. :)
     
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  13. halbhh

    halbhh The wonder and awe of "all things".

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    One of the fun implications of assuming that consciousness is merely natural (just from physics then), is that it does imply a lot of consciousnesses of various sorts would be out there, sort of filling the universe of course.

    And that's fun in more than one way: if the consciousness emerges from matter/energy (i.e.- from physics), then of course all the universe having consciousness....that's just a familiar old way to define "God". One of the old viewpoints, since way back.

    So, an atheist viewpoint leads straight to "God" by implication then, heh heh. ;-)
     
  14. exchemist

    exchemist Veteran Member

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    Put a palaeontologist and a neuroscientist in a room together and you will get a pretty good idea.

    The evolution of the central nervous system in animals is well documented and its biochemistry is fairly well understood. There is no need of any "extra" property in matter to account for the development of consciousness, so your question is moot.
     
  15. exchemist

    exchemist Veteran Member

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    Except that this is a wrong conclusion to draw.

    Consciousness is a state of activity of a brain, like the functioning of the operating system of a computer. To have a functioning computer you don't have to imagine that every component it is made from in some way carries out computations, when it is lying in the warehouse before assembly.
    See post 4 about emergent properties.
     
  16. halbhh

    halbhh The wonder and awe of "all things".

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    Agree. That's sort of the traditional view, really. Or like it. I call it 'consciousness as computation' in order to intentionally oversimplify to remind us that we are just using an idea. Sort of consciousness as a process, or like math computation (even if self-organizing and so on, etc.). (here's a lately article of that general type, which gets more interesting as you get to the middle: https://www.quantamagazine.org/hod-lipson-is-building-self-aware-robots-20190711/)

    I've read so many theories about consciousness over the last 40 years. Really, it's been a lot. :)

    Lately I'm intrigued by the attempts to try to think about whether quantum mechanics or such could be involved.
     
    #16 halbhh, Jan 12, 2021
    Last edited: Jan 12, 2021
  17. Revoltingest

    Revoltingest I have the kavorka
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    That appears to be a baseless assumption.
    Matter has behaviors that are useful to treat as real.
    We're doing that even now.
     
  18. halbhh

    halbhh The wonder and awe of "all things".

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    Speaking of which (to continue from above), I see Quanta Magazine has a nice collection I've not read most of yet:
    https://www.quantamagazine.org/tag/consciousness
     
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  19. exchemist

    exchemist Veteran Member

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    Well, QM is certainly involved, in the sense that QM determines how all atoms and molecules interact, including those in the biochemistry of the structures of the brain.

    However, as to whether the operation of the brain may involve quantum computing, most physicists seem to think not, as the environment is too dense, warm and "noisy" in terms of the rapid rates of interaction of quantum systems.

    There is a terrible tendency just now for people to try to drag QM into just about anything - especially when, or even because, they don't understand it. I am always a bit sceptical of such attempts.;)
     
  20. halbhh

    halbhh The wonder and awe of "all things".

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    :) heh. There's a Quantamagazine article re that in that list I see. Often they have fairly good reporting/writing.
     
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