You sound like a real Bible thumper that cannot read.
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Conversion after death
- Thread starter Spiderman
- Start date
You sound like a real Bible thumper that cannot read.
Spiderman
Veteran Member
Our conversation has ended...not sure why I keep reading your posts on this thread, but you never cease to amaze me!
Don’t co-opt the memories of dead non-Christians for your religion. Their legacy is in the lives they led here on Earth. If you respect them, you won’t try to inject stuff you made up about them into that legacy.I am 100% convinced that if Buddha met Christ they would see eye to eye. Buddha preached a lot of what Christ preached with a different choice of words and extolled many of the same virtues. I have no doubt that Buddha is in Heaven, which only leaves one option, he had a full conversion after death. If Buddha can have a conversion after death, what makes you think others can't??
“Preposterous” does not necessarily mean “not a genuine Christian belief.”
Spiderman
Veteran Member
If your soul were to leave your body and suddenly the fullness of truth was presented to you, would you accept it, or reject it and choose to believe what you know to be a lie (Keep in mind, you have experienced full illumination, and you know all things, but you still have freedom to reject it, and believe what you know at this time to be a lie)?
I'm assuming you would indeed accept the truth.
You are rejecting Christian Dogma at this time because it sounds asinine to you. I believe that if you were fully enlightened, you would choose to accept what is necessary for salvation. God knows that you are rejecting Christianity largely through no fault of your own, and will take that into account on judgment day
No, I’m rejecting the fantasy you’ve invented because it’s insulting. Leave the dead to rest in peace.
Just stop it... unless you want me to start making up stories about what your dead relatives are doing with my imaginary friends these days.
Spiderman
Veteran Member
I fail to understand why this offends you.
I'm trying to get Christians to stop condemning good people to Hell, and be open to other possibilities.
An analogy might be helpful:
Imagine someone went to your grandmother’s headstone, sandblasted the cross off it, and chiseled a Muslim crescent (or maybe a Satanic pentagram) in its place. This wouldn’t change anything about your grandmother’s actual beliefs, but it would be extremely disrespectful to her memory.
I see what you’re doing as the verbal equivalent of that vandalism: desecrating the memory of other people’s loved ones.
So keep it between yourself and other Christians. Your problems with your religion really aren’t the problem of anyone who isn’t Christian, so leave them out of it.
Declaring that dead non-Christians - from Jews who died in the Holocaust to Pagans slaughtered in the Northern Crusades - have thrown away the beliefs they died for is truly offensive. If you can’t figure out a way to see your religion as good while still respecting their memories... that really isn’t anyone’s problem but yours. Don’t drag the rest of us into it.
stvdv
Veteran Member: I Share (not Debate) my POV
@PopeADope: I understand you [trying to get "Hell Spell" out of the world.
I went to a church for 4 years [liked the singing]. Those 4000 Christians believed in Hell [for all the good people who don't accept Jesus]. I thought I could get them to think different with very good arguments [just not nice if someone puts the "Hell spell" on you]. But no chance at all. They believe this way, and won't change, even if Jesus would tell them to [they would condemn Him as being the anti-Christ, even if He were the real deal].
Once I read "Avoid people who critisize your religion". Now I fully understand, it's just negative energy and allowing them to put this spell on you won't do you good. Creates irritation. You might even get infected by them and start critisizing back. And even if you mean well and try showing an alternative, I'm amazed others get angry with you, and I'm now reminded of @YmirGF: "Just smile and continue". It's one big theatre. Just witness, don't get involved works for me. This lesson took me quite a long time "accepting violence as part of the circus".
I like your post, trying to get this "Hell spell" out. The funny thing is that Christians are totally against Black Magic, but blind to see they do the same. One thing I learned "Spiritual Ego is almost incurable". So someone convinced "My way is the Highway" will never gets of his Highway, even if it leads him into Hell. And that is fine for me now.
IMHO
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Our conversation has ended...not sure why I keep reading your posts on this thread, but you never cease to amaze me!
It is like eating one potato chip. You still not responding to the belief in Salvation after death called Apocatastasis which the Roman Church specifically rejected over a thousand years ago.
Nonetheless the following is legible for the literate from the Catechism.
From: Catechism of the Catholic Church - PART 1 SECTION 2 CHAPTER 3 ARTICLE 12
I. THE PARTICULAR JUDGMENT
1021 Death puts an end to human life as the time open to either accepting or rejecting the divine grace manifested in Christ.592 The New Testament speaks of judgment primarily in its aspect of the final encounter with Christ in his second coming, but also repeatedly affirms that each will be rewarded immediately after death in accordance with his works and faith. The parable of the poor man Lazarus and the words of Christ on the cross to the good thief, as well as other New Testament texts speak of a final destiny of the soul--a destiny which can be different for some and for others.593
1022 Each man receives his eternal retribution in his immortal soul at the very moment of his death, in a particular judgment that refers his life to Christ: either entrance into the blessedness of heaven-through a purification594 or immediately,595 -- or immediate and everlasting damnation.596
Wishful fanciful thinking will not get the Roman Church to change what the Catechism clearly teaches.
dianaiad
Well-Known Member
So you cannot support your claim, and the 'I won't do your homework for you' ploy didn't work, so now it's straight to the insult?
You can't support your claim because *I* can't read?
I believe that it's fairly obvious that I can. Read, that is. As for being a 'bible thumper,' Goodness. I've never thumped a Bible in my life. Seems like a singularly useless pastime, to me. I'm just asking you to support YOUR claim.
Stop wasting our time, shunyadragon. You made a claim. Support it, please. Really; I don't have a 'dog in the hunt' here. I'm NOT A CATHOLIC. It doesn't make any difference to ME what their beliefs are, except for this: if I'm going to disagree with someone's beliefs, I want to be sure that it is THEIR beliefs I disagree with, and not some strawman erected for no purpose other than to vilify or insult them.
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You arrogantly claim to know and have read the Catechism, but apparently conveniently or deliberately over looked the following:
From: Catechism of the Catholic Church - PART 1 SECTION 2 CHAPTER 3 ARTICLE 12
I. THE PARTICULAR JUDGMENT
1021 Death puts an end to human life as the time open to either accepting or rejecting the divine grace manifested in Christ.592 The New Testament speaks of judgment primarily in its aspect of the final encounter with Christ in his second coming, but also repeatedly affirms that each will be rewarded immediately after death in accordance with his works and faith. The parable of the poor man Lazarus and the words of Christ on the cross to the good thief, as well as other New Testament texts speak of a final destiny of the soul--a destiny which can be different for some and for others.593
1022 Each man receives his eternal retribution in his immortal soul at the very moment of his death, in a particular judgment that refers his life to Christ: either entrance into the blessedness of heaven-through a purification594 or immediately,595 -- or immediate and everlasting damnation.596
As I said before a previous post cited the Bible verses that the Roman Church bases their beliefs on for this matter. It is without question clear and specific.
Wishful fanciful thinking will not get the Roman Church to change what the Catechism clearly teaches.
You need to respond to the post that immediately followed your non-answers
stvdv
Veteran Member: I Share (not Debate) my POV
I was amazed, because you are an atheist, and I find it very mean how Christians are towards atheist [they end up in Hell; and if they would only think this way would already be bad (black magic is by thought power alone), but if they speak it out is really bad]. So I was amazed that you took sides with Christians, while I thought @PopeADope tried to end this cruel Christian Spell habit.
I understand your example "leave those in their grave with their believe". I think that is the wisest thing to do. But because the Christians started the violence I will always protect their "victims", when I see this kind of injustice I speak out. But like I said in previous reply "better to avoid these people". So you are right, the best is "don't see them", so then no need to say anything, and go my own way.
[The last 4 years I did do quite a big survey. All the atheists I met, including ex-christians not being atheist agreed that it's "not done" what Christians do "telling you end up in Hell". But people are so used to it, that they are kind of immune and let the Christians get away with this violence. But when asked ALL agreed that it's not done.
Thank you for asking so respectful. I hope I didn't hurt your feelings. I understand both sides. But I believe that the one who "gives the first blow" is the one who is wrong. And I have more respect for atheist than for Christians because of this. So I took your side in that way. But maybe your parents are Christian and then I understand your feelings. So maybe you understand my perspective now also.
dianaiad
Well-Known Member
Thank you. That wasn't so hard, then, was it?
Like pulling hen's teeth. Again, I'm not Catholic, but doesn't the argument that Catholics have made here, complete with their own quotes from the catechism, etc., mean anything? These are, after all, their beliefs.
Oh....and you seem to have things a bit backward here. The catechism does not dictate what the Roman Catholic church teaches. The Roman Catholic Church dictates what is in the catechism. Oh...and again...Catholics believe what THEY say they do. Not what you say they do...or what I say they do.
Spiderman
Veteran Member
Only, I'm not saying with certainty that these people did convert.
I don't know what happened to anyone's soul after death, so I don't condemn anyone to hell. I don't claim to have the fullness of truth and believe the fullness of truth will be made known to me after my death.
So, your analogy doesn't work. I'm not saying that I know for certain Buddha was saved and I'm not declaring Buddha to be a Christian. Is it possible? Yes, so Christians should stop damning people to hell.
I knew a girl who would not convert to Christianity, because she heard all these Christians saying people like her Father went to hell, because he committed suicide as an Atheist.
My goal in starting this thread is to get Christians to be open to other possibilities rather than jump to such a repulsive and offensive conclusion!
Spiderman
Veteran Member
You still have no ability to reason.
You are cherry picking the Catechism.
Do I have the fullness of truth? NO! There is much that I am confused about. My defects of character will be removed by my creator after death, in purgatory...the fullness of truth and understanding will be revealed to me AFTER DEATH!
Did Buddha die accepting what is necessary to believe to have eternal life? No! Does the Church say that that necessarily condemns someone to hell? No! That leaves one possibility! Something took place between him and God, after the naked eye would consider him "dead".
Let me ask you, does the Church rule out the possibility of salvation for someone who has died as an atheist? No! AND YOU KNOW THAT IS TRUE! That means, there would only be one option, the person would have to have the grace and knowledge necessary for salvation infused into their soul, when all the external evidence suggests that they died without the necessary faith to be saved.
The Church teaches that we don't know with certainty that any soul is in Hell.
I can't believe I'm still having this conversation with you, but at least finally you provided Catechism verses, and I thank you for that!
Spiderman
Veteran Member
I'm grateful that he finally provided Catechism verses, but those verses don't rule out what I'm saying and haven't condemned my beliefs.
The Church does not say we can ever be certain, that anyone is in Hell, because we don't know how God is capable of reaching a soul, when all external appearances say the soul died without believing what is necessary for salvation. The Church leaves much room for the possibility that someone who died as an Atheist, could still get to Heaven.
I didn't "take sides with the Christians." @PopeADope 's position is no less cruel than the mainstream Christian position; he isn't saying that it's wrong to torment non-Christians in Hell; he's saying that people who we think of as non-Christian are actually Christians now that they're dead, so it's acceptable not to torment them. It doesn't do anything to address the cruel, inhumane doctrine of Hell.
IOW: @PopeADope is still saying that atheists end up in Hell; he just thinks there are a lot fewer atheists. He's replacing threats of torture with defamation.
Implicit in what @PopeADope is saying is that there's something wrong with being an atheist: it's something God will "fix" after the person is dead. It's insulting and demeaning to all atheists, along with being disrespectful to every deceased non-Christian.
The fact that other Christians are no less insulting, demeaning and disrespectful in their own ways doesn't change this fact.