Conversion after death

[Fool]

I don't think anyone can judge objectively. We are subjective creatures. We just aren't able to do differently.
Tom

i know what an egg is. most humans know what an egg is. that is objectivity. whether i, or you, like the egg, or not, is subjective.

so yes, people can be objective and state what they see without having to determine if it's good or bad, like or dislike, ugly or beautiful. researchers

 

[shunyadragon]

Because I'm addressing Christians and telling them that the common view among Christians that all who did not know Jesus in this life went to hell, is preposterous!

Than in your view the beliefs and doctrines of your Roman Church are preposterous.

If your argument is Christianity in general, then your faced with the fact that the diversity of Christianity people can justify anything from Unitarian Universalists to the Most stanch fundamentalists and the Roman Church. In this case you can make up your own designer religion and the shoes you think fit like many people do and we know have hundreds of churches.

 

[columbus]

i know what an egg is. most humans know what an egg is. that is objectivity. whether i, or you, like the egg, or not, is subjective.

Do you know what an egg is?
~a 70 million year old fossil
~a human ovum
~an ordinary breakfast
~the golden product of a metaphorical goose
~a fiberglass sensory deprivation device

What do these things have in common that makes them eggs?
Tom

 

[Fool]

Do you know what an egg is?
~a 70 million year old fossil
~a human ovum
~an ordinary breakfast
~the golden product of a metaphorical goose
~a fiberglass sensory deprivation device

What do these things have in common that makes them eggs?
Tom

the point is objective vs subjective. an objective makes it a noun, or verb. subjective assigns it a personal quality that is positive, or negative.

 

[Kelly of the Phoenix]

You seriously think he went to Hell??

No. I honestly think he did a better job at teaching similar concepts than Jesus.

So, if he didn't go to hell, that leaves only one option. He converted after death.

Why would it be necessary? John the Baptist specifically noted that group identity doesn't save you and many authors/characters agree at least in part. He can be Buddhist and go to heaven. We will be judged as we judge. He has no reason to go to "our" heaven or hell because he has his own. "There are many mansions", etc.

Saint Faustina claims she was told by Jesus that at the moment when a spirit leaves the body, there is a final illumination and spiritual awakening and the soul is given understanding and then the free option to accept or reject Christ. She said there are people who die seemingly unrepentant and non-Christian, and to the naked eye it seems all is lost, but unknownst to us, the soul goes through a final illumination, complete enlightenment, and accepts Jesus as Lord and savior.

I have a hard time accepting that salvation/enlightenment requires something so shallow.

 

[dianaiad]

As I suspected you cannot or will not read. Use common reading skills, which apparently you lack or refuse to use.

You made the claim.
You get to prove it.

Now I am not a Catholic,
but I HAVE read the entire catechism. I noticed something about that before I was three or four paragraphs in: it is separated into sections and the paragraphs are numbered. Therefore it should be easy for you to provide the precise information that proves your point.

Do so.

the burden of proof, after all, is yours.

 

[Spiderman]

You made the claim.
You get to prove it.

Now I am not a Catholic,
but I HAVE read the entire catechism. I noticed something about that before I was three or four paragraphs in: it is separated into sections and the paragraphs are numbered. Therefore it should be easy for you to provide the precise information that proves your point.

Do so.

the burden of proof, after all, is yours.

Amen!

 

[shunyadragon]

You made the claim.
You get to prove it.

Now I am not a Catholic,
but I HAVE read the entire catechism. I noticed something about that before I was three or four paragraphs in: it is separated into sections and the paragraphs are numbered. Therefore it should be easy for you to provide the precise information that proves your point.

Do so.

the burden of proof, after all, is yours.

Nothing can be proven, that's foolishness. Read the Catechism yourself. I do not spoon fed the intentional ignorant. It is also easy for you to read the section on Universal Salvation yourself. In Latin it is; restitutio in pristinum statum

Also look up Extra Ecclesiam nulla salus 'Outside the Church there is no Salvation, which addresses under what conditions one may be saved outside the (physical) Church.

. . . or like PopeADope go form your own church for your own comfort and convenience.

 

[Spiderman]

Nothing can be proven, that's foolishness. Read the Catechism yourself. I do not spoon fed the intentional ignorant. It is also easy for you to read the section on Universal Salvation yourself. In Latin it is; restitutio in pristinum statum

Also look up Extra Ecclesiam nulla salus 'Outside the Church there is no Salvation, which addresses under what conditions one may be saved outside the (physical) Church.

. . . or like PopeADope go form your own church for your own comfort and convenience.

The Church has mutured in it's understanding of Extra Ecclesiam nulla salus. The Church believes everyone in Heaven is Catholic, for the souls in Heaven are called "Church Triumphant", therefore, there is no salvation outside the Church. But the Church leaves room for the opportunity of a final illumination, where a soul is enlightened at the moment of death or after, so that people we assume to be hopeless cases, came to realize the truth and embrace it, even though the naked eye could see no evidence of it. Saints like Faustina Kowalska spoke of this final illumination. I'm not saying the Church approves of universal salvation, but a person is not going to be condemned for not knowing any better and the Church doesn't teach that figures like Buddha, or people who never heard of Christ went to Hell. So, if the Church teaches that the invincibly ignorant have the possibility of salvation, that only leaves one possibility, a conversion after death. Duh!

 

[Spiderman]

Nothing can be proven, that's foolishness. Read the Catechism yourself. I do not spoon fed the intentional ignorant. It is also easy for you to read the section on Universal Salvation yourself. In Latin it is; restitutio in pristinum statum

Also look up Extra Ecclesiam nulla salus 'Outside the Church there is no Salvation, which addresses under what conditions one may be saved outside the (physical) Church.

. . . or like PopeADope go form your own church for your own comfort and convenience.

Church Teaching on Baptism of Desire:

• "The sacrament of Baptism is said to be necessary for salvation in so far as man cannot be saved without, at least, Baptism of desire; "which, with God, counts for the deed. (Augustine, Enarr. in Ps. 57)" St. Thomas Aquinas, Summa Theologica, Whether a man can be saved without Baptism?
• "By which words, a description of the Justification of the impious is indicated,-as being a translation, from that state wherein man is born a child of the first Adam, to the state of grace, and of the adoption of the sons of God, through the second Adam, Jesus Christ, our Saviour. And this translation, since the promulgation of the Gospel, cannot be effected, without the laver of regeneration, or the desire thereof, as it is written; unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Ghost, he cannot enter into the Kingdom of God" Council of Trent, Sixth Session, Fourth Chapter, A description is introduced of the Justification of the impious, and of the Manner thereof under the law of grace.
• "baptism of desire is perfect conversion to God by contrition or love of God above all things accompanied by an explicit or implicit desire for true baptism of water, the place of which it takes as to the remission of guilt, but not as to the impression of the [baptismal] character or as to the removal of all debt of punishment. It is called "of wind" ["flaminis"] because it takes place by the impulse of the Holy Ghost who is called a wind ["flamen"]. Now it is "de fide" that men are also saved by Baptism of desire, by virtue of the Canon Apostolicam, "de presbytero non baptizato" and of the Council of Trent" St. Alphonsus Ligouri's Moral Theology Manual (15th century), Bk. 6, no. 95., Concerning Baptism
• "Here, too, our beloved sons and venerable brothers, it is again necessary to mention and censure a very grave error entrapping some Catholics who believe that it is possible to arrive at eternal salvation although living in error and alienated from the true faith and Catholic unity. Such belief is certainly opposed to Catholic teaching. There are, of course, those who are struggling with invincible ignorance about our most holy religion. Sincerely observing the natural law and its precepts inscribed by God on all hearts and ready to obey God, they live honest lives and are able to attain eternal life by the efficacious virtue of divine light and grace. Because God knows, searches and clearly understands the minds, hearts, thoughts, and nature of all, his supreme kindness and clemency do not permit anyone at all who is not guilty of deliberate sin to suffer eternal punishments." Encyclical On Promotion of False Doctrines (Quanto Conficiamur Moerore) by Pope Pius IX, 1863
• “Baptism, the door and foundation of the Sacraments, in fact or at least in desire necessary unto salvation for all, is not validly conferred except through the ablution of true and natural water with the prescribed form of words.” (Canon 737)
  “Those who have died without baptism are not to be given ecclesiastical burial. Catechumens who die without baptism through no fault of their own are to be counted among the baptized.” (Canon 1239) 1917 Code of Canon Law
• "A person outside the Church by his own fault, and who dies without perfect contrition, will not be saved. But he who finds himself outside without fault of his own, and who lives a good life, can be saved by the love called charity, which unites unto God, and in a spiritual way also to the Church, that is, to the soul of the Church." Pope St. Pius X, Catechism of Christian Doctrine
• "17 Q: Can the absence of Baptism be supplied in any other way?
  A: The absence of Baptism can be supplied by martyrdom, which is called Baptism of Blood, or by an act of perfect love of God, or of contrition, along with the desire, at least implicit, of Baptism, and this is called Baptism of Desire." Catechism of Pope St. Pius X, The Sacraments - Baptism, Necessity of Baptism and Obligations of the Baptized
• "The Fathers and theologians frequently divide baptism into three kinds: the baptism of water (aquæ or fluminis), the baptism of desire (flaminis), and the baptism of blood (sanguinis). However, only the first is a real sacrament. The latter two are denominated baptism only analogically, inasmuch as they supply the principal effect of baptism, namely, the grace which remits sins. It is the teaching of the Catholic Church that when the baptism of water becomes a physical or moral impossibility, eternal life may be obtained by the baptism of desire or the baptism of blood" 1917 Catholic Encyclopedia, Baptism
• "The efficacy of this baptism of desire to supply the place of the baptism of water, as to its principal effect, is proved from the words of Christ. After He had declared the necessity of baptism (John, iii), He promised justifying grace for acts of charity or perfect contrition (John, xiv): "He that loveth Me, shall be loved of my Father: and I will love him and will manifest myself to him." And again: "If any one love me, he will keep my word, and my Father will love him, and we will come to him, and will make our abode with him." Since these texts declare that justifying grace is bestowed on account of acts of perfect charity or contrition, it is evident that these acts supply the place of baptism as to its principal effect, the remission of sins" 1917 Catholic Encyclopedia, Baptism, Baptism of Desire
• "The same doctrine is taught by Pope Innocent III (cap. Debitum, iv, De Bapt.), and the contrary propositions are condemned by Popes Pius V and Gregory XII, in proscribing the 31st and 33rd propositions of Baius." 1917 Catholic Encyclopedia, Baptism, Baptism of Desire
• "We have already alluded to the funeral oration pronounced by St. Ambrose over the Emperor Valentinian II, a catechumen. The doctrine of the baptism of desire is here clearly set forth. St. Ambrose asks: "Did he not obtain the grace which he desired? Did he not obtain what he asked for? Certainly he obtained it because he asked for it." St. Augustine (IV, De Bapt., xxii) and St. Bernard (Ep. Ixxvii, ad H. de S. Victore) likewise discourse in the same sense concerning the baptism of desire." 1917 Catholic Encyclopedia, Baptism, Baptism of Desire

The Churches teaches that a person can enter the Catholic "Church Triumphant" in Heaven through Baptism of desire...DO YOU KNOW WHAT THAT MEANS??? It means that a person who has never heard of Jesus Christ in their lives can get to Heaven...Hence, they enter Heaven after death, Duh! Therefore, they enter the Church after death, Duh! Therefore, the Church leaves the possibility of having a conversion after death, Duh! Bottom line is, You lose!

 

[shunyadragon]

Church Teaching on Baptism of Desire:

• "The sacrament of Baptism is said to be necessary for salvation in so far as man cannot be saved without, at least, Baptism of desire; "which, with God, counts for the deed. (Augustine, Enarr. in Ps. 57)" St. Thomas Aquinas, Summa Theologica, Whether a man can be saved without Baptism?
• "By which words, a description of the Justification of the impious is indicated,-as being a translation, from that state wherein man is born a child of the first Adam, to the state of grace, and of the adoption of the sons of God, through the second Adam, Jesus Christ, our Saviour. And this translation, since the promulgation of the Gospel, cannot be effected, without the laver of regeneration, or the desire thereof, as it is written; unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Ghost, he cannot enter into the Kingdom of God" Council of Trent, Sixth Session, Fourth Chapter, A description is introduced of the Justification of the impious, and of the Manner thereof under the law of grace.
• "baptism of desire is perfect conversion to God by contrition or love of God above all things accompanied by an explicit or implicit desire for true baptism of water, the place of which it takes as to the remission of guilt, but not as to the impression of the [baptismal] character or as to the removal of all debt of punishment. It is called "of wind" ["flaminis"] because it takes place by the impulse of the Holy Ghost who is called a wind ["flamen"]. Now it is "de fide" that men are also saved by Baptism of desire, by virtue of the Canon Apostolicam, "de presbytero non baptizato" and of the Council of Trent" St. Alphonsus Ligouri's Moral Theology Manual (15th century), Bk. 6, no. 95., Concerning Baptism
• "Here, too, our beloved sons and venerable brothers, it is again necessary to mention and censure a very grave error entrapping some Catholics who believe that it is possible to arrive at eternal salvation although living in error and alienated from the true faith and Catholic unity. Such belief is certainly opposed to Catholic teaching. There are, of course, those who are struggling with invincible ignorance about our most holy religion. Sincerely observing the natural law and its precepts inscribed by God on all hearts and ready to obey God, they live honest lives and are able to attain eternal life by the efficacious virtue of divine light and grace. Because God knows, searches and clearly understands the minds, hearts, thoughts, and nature of all, his supreme kindness and clemency do not permit anyone at all who is not guilty of deliberate sin to suffer eternal punishments." Encyclical On Promotion of False Doctrines (Quanto Conficiamur Moerore) by Pope Pius IX, 1863
• “Baptism, the door and foundation of the Sacraments, in fact or at least in desire necessary unto salvation for all, is not validly conferred except through the ablution of true and natural water with the prescribed form of words.” (Canon 737)
  “Those who have died without baptism are not to be given ecclesiastical burial. Catechumens who die without baptism through no fault of their own are to be counted among the baptized.” (Canon 1239) 1917 Code of Canon Law
• "A person outside the Church by his own fault, and who dies without perfect contrition, will not be saved. But he who finds himself outside without fault of his own, and who lives a good life, can be saved by the love called charity, which unites unto God, and in a spiritual way also to the Church, that is, to the soul of the Church." Pope St. Pius X, Catechism of Christian Doctrine
• "17 Q: Can the absence of Baptism be supplied in any other way?
  A: The absence of Baptism can be supplied by martyrdom, which is called Baptism of Blood, or by an act of perfect love of God, or of contrition, along with the desire, at least implicit, of Baptism, and this is called Baptism of Desire." Catechism of Pope St. Pius X, The Sacraments - Baptism, Necessity of Baptism and Obligations of the Baptized
• "The Fathers and theologians frequently divide baptism into three kinds: the baptism of water (aquæ or fluminis), the baptism of desire (flaminis), and the baptism of blood (sanguinis). However, only the first is a real sacrament. The latter two are denominated baptism only analogically, inasmuch as they supply the principal effect of baptism, namely, the grace which remits sins. It is the teaching of the Catholic Church that when the baptism of water becomes a physical or moral impossibility, eternal life may be obtained by the baptism of desire or the baptism of blood" 1917 Catholic Encyclopedia, Baptism
• "The efficacy of this baptism of desire to supply the place of the baptism of water, as to its principal effect, is proved from the words of Christ. After He had declared the necessity of baptism (John, iii), He promised justifying grace for acts of charity or perfect contrition (John, xiv): "He that loveth Me, shall be loved of my Father: and I will love him and will manifest myself to him." And again: "If any one love me, he will keep my word, and my Father will love him, and we will come to him, and will make our abode with him." Since these texts declare that justifying grace is bestowed on account of acts of perfect charity or contrition, it is evident that these acts supply the place of baptism as to its principal effect, the remission of sins" 1917 Catholic Encyclopedia, Baptism, Baptism of Desire
• "The same doctrine is taught by Pope Innocent III (cap. Debitum, iv, De Bapt.), and the contrary propositions are condemned by Popes Pius V and Gregory XII, in proscribing the 31st and 33rd propositions of Baius." 1917 Catholic Encyclopedia, Baptism, Baptism of Desire
• "We have already alluded to the funeral oration pronounced by St. Ambrose over the Emperor Valentinian II, a catechumen. The doctrine of the baptism of desire is here clearly set forth. St. Ambrose asks: "Did he not obtain the grace which he desired? Did he not obtain what he asked for? Certainly he obtained it because he asked for it." St. Augustine (IV, De Bapt., xxii) and St. Bernard (Ep. Ixxvii, ad H. de S. Victore) likewise discourse in the same sense concerning the baptism of desire." 1917 Catholic Encyclopedia, Baptism, Baptism of Desire

The Churches teaches that a person can enter the Catholic "Church Triumphant" in Heaven through Baptism of desire...DO YOU KNOW WHAT THAT MEANS??? It means that a person who has never heard of Jesus Christ in their lives can get to Heaven...Hence, they enter Heaven after death, Duh! Therefore, they enter the Church after death, Duh! Therefore, the Church leaves the possibility of having a conversion after death, Duh! Bottom line is, You lose!

No I win! Your understanding of the English fails in the above. I already covered this. Baptism by desire is how people enter Heaven when they DIE and remain ignorant of Jesus Christ and the Church during their life on earth and enter heaven WHEN THEY DIED. This is NO a reference to conversion AFTER DEATH.

Nothing here supports your assertions. Your endorsing a form of Apocatastasis or apokatastasis (All souls may be possibly saved after death), which the Church rejected long ago. Some Protestant and other churches still believe this, but not the Roman Church. I may go into this more and the relationship of this belief in the history of the church.

 

[dianaiad]

Nothing can be proven, that's foolishness. Read the Catechism yourself. I do not spoon fed the intentional ignorant. It is also easy for you to read the section on Universal Salvation yourself. In Latin it is; restitutio in pristinum statum

Also look up Extra Ecclesiam nulla salus 'Outside the Church there is no Salvation, which addresses under what conditions one may be saved outside the (physical) Church.

. . . or like PopeADope go form your own church for your own comfort and convenience.

I see.

The 'I'm not going to do your work for you" admission that there is no evidence, much less proof, of one's claim. It means "You win and I lose."

Oh, and I'm not a Catholic, remember?

 

[Spiderman]

No I win! Your understanding of the English fails in the above. I already covered this. Baptism by desire is how people enter Heaven when they DIE and remain ignorant of Jesus Christ and the Church during their life on earth and enter heaven WHEN THEY DIED. This is NO a reference to conversion AFTER DEATH.

Nothing here supports your assertions. Your endorsing a form of Apocatastasis or apokatastasis (All souls may be possibly saved after death), which the Church rejected long ago. Some Protestant and other churches still believe this, but not the Roman Church. I may go into this more and the relationship of this belief in the history of the church.

I can't believe I'm still arguing with a man who doesn't even apparently have the gift of identifying the obvious.

If a soul dies and never consciously accepted the truth, but still makes it to Heaven, which the Church clearly defines as a possibility, that only leaves room for one option, some how the soul was evangelized after it lost consciousness and was considered by the naked eye to be dead. This only leaves the possibility that the soul had a final illumination and spiritual awakening after there were no external signs that the person was still alive...or perhaps that awakening could happen while the person is in a coma or something, but the bottom line is, the Church doesn't condemn people like Buddha, or people who followed the law of Charity though ignorant of the truth (Through no fault of their own) to Hell! In fact, the Church leaves the likely possibility that they are in fact, a member of the "Church Triumphant", the body of Christ, in Heaven! Therefore, they would have had to be evangelized and the truth presented to them somehow. That is obvious! Buddha could be in Heaven, which in the eyes of the Church declares him to be a full member of the Church, therefore, he would in that case, accept what the Church teaches, though he didn't do so while still alive. You do the math there

You simply refuse to identify the obvious, so it is absolutely a waste of time continuing to debate with someone who doesn't appear to have the ability to reason.

God bless you, and have a good Sunday But this conversation is finished!

 

[1213]

Buddha never heard about Jesus. ... ...You seriously think he went to Hell??

Bible says this, about people who have not heard of Jesus:


For as many as have sinned without law will also perish without the law. As many as have sinned under the law will be judged by the law. For it isn't the hearers of the law who are righteous before God, but the doers of the law will be justified (for when Gentiles who don't have the law do by nature the things of the law, these, not having the law, are a law to themselves, in that they show the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience testifying with them, and their thoughts among themselves accusing or else excusing them) in the day when God will judge the secrets of men, according to my gospel, by Jesus Christ.
Romans 2:12-16

Those who have not heard of Jesus may have righteous mind and as Jesus says, eternal life is for righteous.

These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.
Matt. 25:46

 

[shunyadragon]

I see.

The 'I'm not going to do your work for you" admission that there is no evidence, much less proof, of one's claim. It means "You win and I lose."

Oh, and I'm not a Catholic, remember?

It is not necessary to be a follower of the Roman Church to be ignorance of the teachings.

 

[shunyadragon]

Bible says this, about people who have not heard of Jesus:


For as many as have sinned without law will also perish without the law. As many as have sinned under the law will be judged by the law. For it isn't the hearers of the law who are righteous before God, but the doers of the law will be justified (for when Gentiles who don't have the law do by nature the things of the law, these, not having the law, are a law to themselves, in that they show the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience testifying with them, and their thoughts among themselves accusing or else excusing them) in the day when God will judge the secrets of men, according to my gospel, by Jesus Christ.
Romans 2:12-16

Those who have not heard of Jesus may have righteous mind and as Jesus says, eternal life is for righteous.

These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.
Matt. 25:46

Your citations in Bold reflect the present doctrines and teachings of the Roman Church.

 

[dianaiad]

It is not necessary to be a follower of the Roman Church to be ignorance of the teachings.

Actually, a non-member is going to be far more likely to be in ignorance of the teachings of any faith than a member is. In fact, if I want to know what some belief system teaches, I always ask a member of it. His answer will trump that of any non-member who says differently.

Every time.

 

[shunyadragon]

Actually, a non-member is going to be far more likely to be in ignorance of the teachings of any faith than a member is. In fact, if I want to know what some belief system teaches, I always ask a member of it. His answer will trump that of any non-member who says differently.

Every time.

This is not necessarily the case. You appear to be very ignorant of the Catechism, and the scripture of the Bible already cited in #74 that the Catechism is based on. The Catechism would not openly contradict scripture as %PopeADope and you propose.

 

[Katzpur]

It is not necessary to be a follower of the Roman Church to be ignorance of the teachings.

Well, you're certainly proof of that.

 

[dianaiad]

This is not necessarily the case. You appear to be very ignorant of the Catechism, and the scripture of the Bible already cited in #74 that the Catechism is based on. The Catechism would not openly contradict scripture as %PopeADope and you propose.

Oh?

Good. Then you can show us the precise section and paragraph of the catechism that supports your point?

You are, indeed, coming up with an incredibly circular argument. Stop. My head is spinning. just give us 'chapter and verse,' or in this case, 'section and paragraph.'